Grand_Admiral_Thrawn

There is a lesson from this then: never go into battle without your cup of tea!

Very nice! You seem to have more eppic battles than me. I've only got a few since I just reformatted my HD and lost most of mine. Some hav already been posted elsewhere, but I like them that much: http://img75.exs.cx/img75/1827/ss00000.jpg http://img75.exs.cx/img75/6610/VSD.jpg http://img75.exs.cx/img75/1572/ss00004.jpg http://img75.exs.cx/img75/7383/ss00030.jpg http://img75.exs.cx/img75/457/ss00003.jpg http://img49.exs.cx/img49/9925/ss00002.jpg http://img49.exs.cx/img49/1523/ss00026.jpg

There is also the actions of each fighter group, frigate, destroyer and cruiser in combat, the effects lighting will have (n ot really AI related, but still important), the docking of the resourcers, the laser trajectory, missiles and thier trajectory, building more ships, and just general "playing" that can be divided into other areas. I think the reason the effects are worse with the mod is that the computer builds more stuff. I've never seen fleets the size I get in Warlods while I'm playing standard Homeworld2.

That's an intersting point. There may be some of the lesser-known writers who are female, and we don't even know it.

It could have a lot to do with thier general shape. They're both very smoothe and streamlined, and look similar in some ways. I though more people would be going for ships not on the list, the more powerful ones. It seems we have a lot of smuggler fans here .

I'm not sure if a Jedi, Light or Dark, can go agains the will of the force. I think the ESB when Luke ran off to Cloud City he was going against the will of the Force. I'm still not sure if the way Lucas portrayed the Force in the movies, as being light and dark, is the way things are, or if it is as the NJO books portray it, where the Force simply is, and the Jedi determines how the powers are used.

Remember, Jedi have extraordinary powers when it comes to manipulating minds. A Dark Jedi could rip a memory from the mind of someone if they wished.

I'm quite fond of a series of books by author Steven Erikson. They're fantasy books, but not your standard "Longarrow" type (by that I mean, you won't find an elven character [or any elves for that matter. He creates his own races] with the name Longarrow or any others with such fanciful names). There are plenty of characters in those books who are single. A very good series. But this isn't the forum for such talk. I may have missunderstood your question though, Barkoa.

I don't debate in a league, no, and that's probably for the best. As was evident in some places here, I tend to speake before I think, and not to carefully consider my wording. Scathane is quite good at thoroughly researching, so it wouldn't surprise me if he was in a debating club while in school or some such.

While I liked the old forums for their looks, the new forum has more active members, and those members introduce interesting ideas and topics. Also, since the forums were moved, more advancements were made in Rebellion editing. So, the new forums are definitely better by far.

I have a friend who tol me. guess that's not the most credible source (lets not see a spill over of that into this topic though ), but that's what I've heard. Could be, and probably is, wrong. The ramafications are interesting, though. EDIT: It's also a theory that fans have concoted, that I like. It would sort of complete the similarities between each film. Ep I/IV: Young boy leaves home to join an ideological group (Anakin=Jedi, Luke=Rebellion). Ends up taking part in an epic space battle in which he single-handedly defeats the enemy. TPM, ANH, same number of words. Menace, Hope. Ep II/V: Boy is strong-headed, thinks he is being held back, doesn't trust his master completely. Large battle in which the larger force crushes the underdog. Son confronts father for first time (doesn't know it) and looses a limb. The Empire Strikes Back, Attack of the Clones. Attack, Strikes. Ep III/VI: Culmination of all things past. Battle of epic proportions that determines the fate of the government.Theoretical: son realizes/accepts father's identity. They fight in front of the Emperor. Where Luke refuses to give into his anger, Anakin has the death of his mother and other things to get him to kill Dooku. Anakin turns, but Luke didn't.Return of the Sith, Return of the Jedi. Just some things that I thought were interesting.

Katarn's first ship was the Moldy Crow. I have to agree with Paul on this one. I've always liked the sleek curves of the underside of the ESSD. I know there are two versions of that class, the brittle-looking elongated one, and the massive black SSD with the swooping underside. The latter (which I be;ieve is actually the smaller of the two) is my fav.

mawshiye has pointed it out. Not only in Traitor, but in most of the later NJO books, it is stated that there is no "dark side" as such, but that the darkness ic created by the one who controls the power. Then again, this contradicts what is said in the movies, though I guess this could be a revelation that only occurs to the NJO Jedi. As for Anakin Sr. being a bastard, well, Dooku is his father... I hope that didn't spoil anything for anyone.

Quite true! People who undertake debates understand that it is very unlikely that they will be able to change thier adversary's point of view on the topic. I respect that Scath has his opinions, and he respects that I have mine. On top of that, we probably both realize that this isn't the most important topic. Now, I'm only going to respond to a few of Scthane's rebuttles, for reasons you'll see at the bottom (and for the fact that eventually we'll need an entire page just for one post .) Agreed. Not at all. I've somply never had the chance to read them. If I could find some copies of them I'd be more than happy to include them in my list of sources. Yes, I would greatly appreciate it if he would have a scene in Episode III with a collection of Imperial officers of each rank, but I doubt he'll be so kind. Something else that makes it difficult is the fact that every officer in RotJ has the same rank insignia, including Piett and Jerjerrod, so there isn't even continuity in the movies. Not at all. I was trying to clarify my response, though I could have chosen better wording. Yes, i must conceed they are. I should have used the word accurate, as you do farther down in your post, not reliable or credible. To add further credance to WEG, in Star Wars Insider issue 77 the Imperial Sourcebook (much to my shock ) is used as the source for a question on the Royal Guard armor. Issue 77 is the newest issue, so if you'd like to see the article it's on shelves now. Just for interest, the Imperial Sourcebook gave a correlation between the Mandalorian armor that we see in KotOR and the Royal Guards. So, basically, the IS invented what the Mandalor would look like in KotOR. 1. I'm implying that not all of the information found there is reliable or accurate. I only suggest that you consider the source (Saxton's source) and the reason for that source to be documenting the information. 2. It would only be considered pliagairism if he were submitting it to a professor for grades, or to a bublisher. Since it is posted on the internet, the same rules do not apply. You don't have to reference material in a specific way, so long as copyrighted material is acredited to the appropriate sources, which is the case with the SWTC. I was simply making a connection between his teaching at accademic institutes and the SWTC. Again, i did not accuse him of plagiarism. 3. That implication didn't actually need an appology due to the fact that I removed said paragraph from my post almost immediately after pressing submit. Essentially, I withdrew that statement after proving myself wrong. As stated above, in retrospect I've used the wrong word. Outdated is what I should have siad. As for making up facts, I think I already clarified that I mean so that they supported gameplay. Because it's fun! Ok, so I said onlya few, but oh well. Now, a complete clarification of my stance as it has evolved throughout this debate, so that no one is left with the wrong idea: The SWTC does have lots of great information in it, but I would not use it as my only resource (Scathane hasn't, so I'm nat accusing him of that, I'm just making a statement). The Imperator-Class Star Destroyer thing irks me most, but the ranking system, in my opinion, could use a little tweaking. Dr. Saxton is a credible individual, but I feel that some of his sources may not be as accurate due to the fact that newer editions have since been published, and that some information may have been inserted to enhance PR gameplay. WEG is a credible company, I simply used the wrong vocabulary in my posting. Again, their sourcebooks may not be as accurate in light of newer publications being made, though I would have to read them to get an idea of the purpose of thier rank structure. Decipher is a credible company, however the contradictions between their CCG and the WOC CCG make it difficult to determine which facts are "true". This said, despite what fans may wish (me included) there is, in the end, only one truely accurate source for Star Wars Information: George lucas. he can change whatever facts he wants simply because he wants to. This makes it very difficult to believe much of what is out there. Even the EU books are not beyond his influence. The lates SW Insider says that the EU does not represent Lucas' overall resolution to events after RotJ. There is even a new electronic source for the prequals in which a caracter is named (the Neimodian who follows Gunray around in Ep II). Lucas okayed the naming, but after it went into publication, changed his mind. So, I would suggest that we put this to rest here and now, agreeing that we'll never really come to a compromise simply because I'm too damn stubborn and set in my ways to change now. Hell, agreeing that they are sensor domes and not shield generators was hard enough for me! I hope Scath replys to any rebuttles I've made above, and I'll read them, but I won't make any replys to them. We'll assume that these are our final arguments. It was fun, but, I'm spending too much time on this

Some of the mas with pictures are unique, and some of the maps with the same picture as others are unique, however there are a smattering that are just a starfield. I suppose it could be in preparation for the complete 0.30.

Remember, though, you are going by the new forums. The true order can be found on the old forum, which no longer exists.

I think that Bork is in there somewhere.

He only refers to the TIE FIghter game to point out the inconsistansies in it. I'm refering to the references he uses in support of his list of ranks. Quite true! However, since the SWTC has been updated past the era of the of the West End Games controling the RPG, I think that he should have looked to Wizards of the Coast's publications. I'll come back to the later. I admit that this would be true, but I have coe torealize that he is not stating that the SWTC is how the SW universe is, but rather how it would be were real world rules and regulations be applied. On this matter, I concede defeat. This does add credability to thier work. However, the fact that the rights to the RPG were passed on to WOTC, who in turn re-cover what WEG published, makes me trust WOTC more. If the same ranks and what-not are given in the WOTC sourcebooks, I'll believe it. That is only because they were the company licensed (I didn't say they weren't) to do so. They didn't create those sketches, Ralph McQuarrie did. (Star Wars Insider, 076, June/July 2004, pg 50) The book's primary focus was " the characters and technology of the series, quantifying these new elements into game stats." (starwars.com, 2000). If Michael Allen Horne got his information from other sources which over the time period between Zahn's trilogy and Dark Empire, no new information was introduced. If he wrote it himself, WEG is the nresponsible for those events as well (a considerable ammount of information). I'm interested in which is the case. I didn't say there were not licensed by LucasFilm. I said perhaps licensed. I can see how my wording could lead to confusion. I did not mean "maybe there were, maybe they weren't", I mean "that may well be the case". As for making up thier own facts, I mean to suit gameplay. Information that you may find in an RPG sourcebook (including those from WOTC) cannot be entireley trusted because they are slanted to accommodate game-play. The same can be said for video games. That's quite true, but since the newer RPG sourcebooks go over the same areas, he should be referencing from them. I'm not questioning the veracity of the information, only the sources. If the same information is found withing the newer PRG sourcebooks, I'll give it more credence. The reason it really doesn't matter, is because this is a debate, not a piece of literature. in a debate it is sufficient to quote sources and to name those sources. However, for your benefit I have taken to using a simplified literary citing (as in Work Cited) method for my sources in this post. I said it before, and I'll say it again: for someone who's criticizes another man's source notation etiquette, you have a poor way of doing better yourself. No, just Dark Horse Comics . Yes, an individual was responding on behalf of LEC. If they didn't support him, the article wouldn't have been published. Here is an excript of the most important part of that article: Also, I think you are confusing the purpose of my examples. The one about the potato wasn't to be taken litteraly, it was a metaphor to describe the way in which Saxton takes what is presented in the movies and other areas and says "Nope, it couldn't be. This is the way it has to be". He doesn't do this with everything, but there are some things which just irk me. You'd like a counter? Dr. Saxton himself states that there are fewer combinations for the rank insignia and code cylenders than are possibe for ranks, and says that there are duplicates. There are not. Imperial ranks also rely on the side on which the insignia are worn, and a varying combination of code cylenders. The only way there could be too few combinations is if you are to accept his rank structure. the rank structure which I have provided allows for a methodical and sensical progression of insignia combinations. Come again? Coming from you, I don't understand this remark... You did get the galaxy/universe thing right here, though! The first part is a typo. It should have read Star Trek. http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0345386256.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553374842/103-0362938-0151879?v=glance http://www.starwars.com/eu/ Plus, a galaxy in another univers could be considered "far, far away". Erm, yes, weird indeed... Yes, those are the same novels. However, as I stated before, Lucas can make changes to the traditionally accepted beliefs found by those novels. The only facts that are no longer reputable ar those contradicted by Lucas. I didn't say I didn't like the idea of midi-chlorians, I simply got the impression that he didn't mention the concept again because of the negative response from fans, though that didn't stop him from inluding Jar-Jar again. If you take another look at Saxton's source list, he inludes Decipher's card game, but I guess that doesn't constitute "talking about Decipher". Also, there isn't a news report in the star wars or LA, or LF sites that says "we still thin West End Games is still credible". In addition, it's not a matter of "are they credible", they are a credible company, it's a matter of is their information credible in comparison to newer sources on the same topic. Again, you have confused my metaphor for an argument, but I'll ignore that. The fact is, LEC supports Saxton's Star Wars: Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross-Sections, and says that it transforms "the fantastic technology of Star Wars into a fascinating reality". This is not a comment on the SWTC, and it is rather presumptuous to attempt to extend thier endorsement of his above book the the SWTC. Again, that they state his work is "authorative and well-researched" does not include the SWTC in their opinion. Firstly, I have not accused Dr. Saxton of plagiarism. You'll note that I state that "students who undertake this practice are not only guilty of plagiarism, but would find that their proffs would refuse to accept the work because it can't be verified." This does not accuse him plagiarism, it simply points out that for a piece of literature, it is not very well sourced. I have also not stated that Mr. Saxton is ureliable, but that one of his sources may be so due to the fact that it is outdated, and that it has since been replaced with newer material. I have clarified the "make up thier own stuff" point, though I'll do so again. They create information to assist with gameplay, and these pieces of information are not intended to be taken as Star Wars fact. Also, if I were guilty of anything, it would not be slander. Slander is the oral communication of statements that are defamatory to another. The "official ter" is libel. However, since you are simply twisting facts to fit your argument, or are missunderstanding what I have said, no crime has been committed. I would also encourage you to look up the legal term "fair comment", which, should your accusations proove true, is also applicalbe to this instance. As for my failure to properly cite resources, as I have already stated, this is a debate, and though it be written rather than verbal, references need not be provided in the same manner as is required in an essay or other such work. Pretty much the same as above. You have misinterpreted what I have written (a problem with the internet and written media in general). Also, I've not accused anyone of anything. I've stated my opinion and supported it with what support I feal is needed. I've not stated that Mr. Saxton is unreliable, nor West End Games, only that the Imperial Sourcebook is not the most reliable srouce due to the reasons provided above. When engageing in a debate, which is precisely what this is, it is bad form to engage in personal attacks against your adversary. Your feelings about me are not the issue here, the varacity of the rank system listed on the SWTC is. We have (both) veered from the original topic, but most of what we covered is related. Personal attacks are simply low, my friend, especially for a topic which is really unimportant in the long run. Even in a debte about politic neither Texas Fett nor myself engaged in such attacks. [/img]

First, I'll cover my butt for one of my grievous errors: After searcher (while I was ammending other parts of my post) I did come across reputable sites with Mr. Saxton listed on them. Prior to your completion of your post, I removed that particular section from my post. That was an error on my part, and just goes to show that Google doesn't have all the answers. 1. Yes it is his basic source, but it is also the only one which he refers to, other than an issue ot Tales. 2. No, there are not any Star Wars novels that are older, or, at least none that don't go over what happens in the movies. The first Expanded Universe was Heir to the Empire, published in 1994. There was a revised eddition of the Imperial Sourcebook published in 1994, though since no dates are provided in his bibliography, we can't be sure which edition he is using. As for "Are they outdated as well": no, but for one reason. The facts stated in the early novels are reiterated in the later ones. Sort of a refresher. 3. Perhaps licensed, but since West End Games continued to produce RPG source books well into the time that Wizards of the Coast became the owner of the rights to the Official Star Wars Role PLaying Game, I question the authenticity of the information within their sourcebooks. I get the impression that they simply created their own facts. 4. By that I mean, LucasFilm has abandoned them, and replaced their producs with another one. I wouldn't quote anythig from Decipher's cards because LucasFilm has revoked their rights to produce the SWCCG and given them to another company. The case with Coolhand is different. While they may not be making Star Wars games, LucasArts hasn't given their contracts to other devopers. 5. No, it may not be an accademic publication, but that has little bearing on the proper etiquet for source notation. This, however, realy doesn't matter. I just thought it would be nice to know what came from where. 6. Sources: Star Wars: A New Hope (Film) Star Wars: A New Hope (Novel) Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (Film) Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (Novel) Star Wars: Return of the Jedi (Film) Star Wars: Return of the Jedi (Novel) For monotony sake, I'll just say: All Star Wars Novels from the time of Heir to the Empire to Survivor's Quest Assorted SWRPG Sourcebooks published by Wizards of the Coast Inc. Some Information from the Star Wars Trading Card Game (basically the SWCCG), published by Wizards of the Coast Inc. Not much from here, just ranks and names (granted, some things conflict with other sources) http://www.starwars.com Star Wars: X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter Star Wars: X-Wing Alliance Star Wars: Rebellion Assorted comic books and graphic novels Star Wars: Insider Mag. 7. To illuminate STAR WARS with a sense of realism This statement alone can be countered by an article in SW: Insider issue 076, in which the issue of the Death Star killing all the ewoks with its explosion was brought up. The individual who was responding (on behalf of LucasFilm) stated that you can't bring realism into the Star Wars univers, there are just too many things that won't work. For that reason alone, much of Mr. Saxtons writings cannot be taken as gospel, though they are interesting to read. 8. Already provied my most sincere apologies above, but, for humilities sake, I apologise again. 9. I know that, but again, take the example of the destruction of the second Death Star. If it were really destroyed above Endor, the explosion would have rained death upon the planet, killing the Ewoks instantly, and slowly freezing the rest of the planet in a nuclear winter. The fact is, because it is set in another universe, not everything has to make sense. Star Wars is restricted by the rules of physics and accepted science because it is set in our galaxy. As for GL's contradictions, well, though I don't agree with it, most of them are contradicting things written in the novels which, by all rights, he can do. That's not to say the novesl aren't legitamate (that would be contradictory to my point), but if GL doesn't like something in them, he can change it if he wants. If only he could take back medichlorians... 10. Below the rank chart he goes into detail about how the ranks fit into the Star Wars universe, at least for the naval ranks. He may well not believe that the other two colomns fit in (thank got), but there are some ranks that are just too shaky for my taste. As for the sourcebook not being credible, as I mentioned above, LucasFilms moved away from that company and replaced them with another. In my view, West End Games and Dicipher are no longer credible sources. 11. Who am I to dissagree with him? If Stephen Hawking and I are arguing about Star Wars, does Hawking win because he has a doctorate and is a well-know physicist, and has published and sold millions of books around the world. No. He doesn't have a doctorate in Star Wars. His credentials have no bearing on this at all.

I can't think of a rap-sheet that Canada would have, but perhaps some one can think of something?

Actually, if read the whole page, you find that his references for all of his ranks are from The Imperial Sourcebook, which is published in 1989 (and there-for quite out of date). Furthermore, the company, westendgames, was not supported by any of Lucas' companies. They no longer support any Star Wars Titles. At the bottom he lists other sources, but, quite unprofessionally, he fails to indicate what information comes from where. As a "professor", he should know that students who undertake this practice are not only guilty of plagiarism, but would find that their proffs would refuse to accept the work because it can't be verified. As for me skipping certain sources, the only "source" I skip, is the SWTC. To the best of my knowledge, my ascertions are confirmed by any other sources. If you can find any that do not, I would appreciate the information:) Hmmm, the creator of a fictional work is in error because some one doesn't agree with the facts he uses in his creation? Again, you cannot apply real-world restrictions to a sci-fi universe, no matter what the topic. If GL wants a meter-long potato to have the power to destroy a planet, who is Curtis Saxton to so "well, potatos don't have the internal power to generate sufficient energy to destroy a planetoid. There for, it was obviousley a twenty kilometer long lemon". It just doesn't work that way. Although there is no "official" listing of ranks, we can determin from reputable sources, including video games, novels, comic books, and movies, that the ranking structure that Mr. Saxton provided is not 100% accurate. There are rank there that have never been mentioned in the Star Wars universe, and other ascertions that he has created to make things make sence to him. EDIT: SM, you've just re-iterated what my primary point is: you cannot use real-world ranks with the imperial navy. It just doesn't work. The New Republic followed the same rank structure as the Empire, though Moff and Grand Moff were left out because they are A) non-military ranks and B) because they don't have a dictator-style government. Though no official rank was given to Ackbar, he was basically a Grand Admiral, though the Republic didn't use that rank either.

The only wars people tend to re-enact are those that are considered major. The little wars between countries (such as the war between the Netherlands and Gelgium) don't have a big "fan-base", and equipment for those would be almost impossible to find. There are WW I and WW II re-enactments, but for some reason, despite the simplicity of the uniforms and equipment, they are very expensive to prepare for. Anything that is pre-musket in th eway of weaponry is only popular with a small (Like, maybe 5,000 people total) group of fanatics. This is mostly because it's hard to fire off blanks with bows, and swords can cause real damage. Thus, the most popular wars to re-enact are those that revolve around the Napoleonic wars.

Don't mean to double post, but this is unrelated to the above. I've noticed that several of the SW maps are, well, exactly the same. That is, I know they all have the same basic layout, but many are the same map, with the same starfield background. Mon Calamari, for instance, doesn't have a planet, nor does the Aldaaran Graveyard. Is it just me, or are others noticing this too?

Perhaps i was a little hasty in my rant. His ranking system for the navy is, as you said, correct. However the ranks of Acting Sub-Lieutenant, Line Captain and High Admiral are not, in my opinion, Star Wars ranks, as they are only mentioned in the RP source book. As for his confusion with Commander and Captain, if you scroll down to where he discusses TIE fighter (the game), he thinks that they position commander above captain in that game. Since I've never played it, that may well be true. The only thing I dissagree with are his ranks for the Fighter Core and the Army. General is, as far as I'm concerned, the highest rank in the Imperial Army.

There was a year or two between the Card Guild and SWR.net. Before that there was just Rev's site.