Jahled

They also used them to much greater effect, both in terms of the subtle and the dramatic. There are two wonderful scenes early in FotR; one where Gandalf and Bilbo are blowing smoke rings and the firework sequence. I'm actually hard pressed to think of better used special effects in a film. Then there is the Balrog in Khazad-Dum. A tour d'force or what! The special effects in the OT were good enough to spellbind me as a child, and keep me going as an adult, but whilst visually impressive, the new films seem to have an almost 'sterile' quality to them; as if the special effects, as SM pointed out, are overdone. Granted it's a sci-fi film, but LotR is a fantasy film, and the special effects were used with obviously far more skill. Perhaps Peter Jackson should be asked to make the final three films....

That's an extremely well written post Trej. Could it be that the 'dumbing down' of the Star Wars saga coincides with the use of special effects? It's largely been reported the actors found it hard to act so much of the films against a blue-backdrop.

Fkuc me BS! I've had some bad moments in life, but that one must come close to truely being 'a bad day.'

I've been crap at spelling for 33 years, I see no reason to attempting to do so now. Try this: We have our cloned-shocktroopers, and we have our non-clone 'conventional' army soldiers. We also have an officer-elite supervising all. I reckon we've broadly reached some conclusion. Not much else further argument can achieve. Star Wars ultimately exists in our individual heads, we are all at liberty to take out of it what we want.

Well, I think that way back at the onset of this thread it was just speculated that Stormtroopers and perhaps other 'masked,' members of the Imperial armed forces were clones. In the original three films we see the Empire as it is firmly established, with an officer-core clearly supervising Stormtroopers. But we also have obvious insights that within the Stormtrooper-structure their was still a structure of rank as addressed by the sholder poldrons and Veers briefing a Snowtrooper in the Battle of Hoth. This is also evident in AotC. The AT-ST Walker 'pilots' were clearly not clones, nor were the 'fleet troopers' guarding the Death Star Shield bunker; which leads me to presume the Empire must of had non-clone soldiers other than security guards onboard it's Capital Ships (a theory I almost put forward, but now must drop). We have are cloned-shocktroopers, and we have are non-clone 'conventional' army soldiers. We also have an officer-elite supervising all. The Jedi being Clone Soldier leaders as in someway a 'structure' is daft. In AotC Yoda goes and gets the clone army and goes to Geonosis to rescue the Jedi. Not alot of time to develop a structure there is there. Refer to my 'Superman' referance somewhere above.

I just voted. ...Hard choice.

Is this for real Kaja?

Dude, these guys are Jedi!! Who would you take your orders from combat; you regiment commander or Superman? Who is to say they haven't already achieved battlefield results anyway? The sepertist command are already begining to panic as the Jedi enter the fray after being rescued by the clones.... Err... you appear to be squarking gibberish here dude. Unquestionably obaying orders could be interpreted as achieving mission objective, such as defense or offense. What on earth are you on about with this dishonor thing? It doesan't make any sense in this argument, and never did historically just in case you were refering. The Samurai frequently retreated, and hid in ditches, etc. You seem to assume the mind of a clone as something other than a unique individual! Why? They are simply people bred from Spaarti tanks and versed in combat from infants.... You simply do not appear to have any understanding of the Eastern Front whatso ever. Read a very good book called Stalingrad by Antony Beevor for example and the horrific loss of life might become a bit clearer. The Russian Soldier was at the mercy of an enemy that didn't want to treat him as a human as a prisoner, but also under the guidance of an idiology so overwelmed with it's self-rightiousness, it cast aside human life as something expendable for the greater good. I don't agree with your point about initiave in the Russian army whatso ever. The Russian T34, KV1 and KV2 tanks had better mobility over snow because they were lighter, had wide tracks and good ground clearance; a big advantage over the German Tanks, who were rapidly grinding to a hault due to German logistics failing in the bitter weather. Sorry dude, but that's an army with initiative! They wage war with equipment that can cope with the terrain. None of this makes sense anywhere other than your own head! We've established that clones as human beings are not automations and thus wouldn't suffer all the faults you're outlining above.

Yoda didn't think so... I don't think anyone has said that dude! Even in AotC there would appear to be different types of troopers in the army Yoda brings to Geonosis. This makes no sense whatso ever. The first point is more or less obvious for any officer in command of any troops in any army, which is why we have rank structures to try and ensuree the latter point doesn't happen. This as an an example highlighting the above point also makes no sense to what i'm struggling to comprehend you are suggesting. Despite huge loss of life, the Russians overcame the Germans(and granted Hitler's blatent stupidity in ignoring what his generals conducting that campaign were telling him helping) the Red Army was by no means scant of capable officers commanding there men. Granted, Stalin and his Communist murderers did cull a great many capable officers, but the Red Army was efficient enough to defeat the Germans on the Eastern Front; who were arguably the most efficient and modern army of WWII, not least down to lack of overall dependance on rank. Anyway, shooting there own soldiers was not something the Russians did exclusively did they. The Empire emerges victorious from the Clone Wars, and there were people like General Veers commanding Stormtroopers at Hoth. Why do you assume this of people trained from birth in combat? They would be some of the most formidable opponents you could face, and for all the wrong reasons their opponents would presume. A four year old having the SW equivelant of 'The art of War,' for a bed time story really is not going to behave in a predictable manor in any aspect other their efficiency to opperate as an extremely effective killing machine. Again, I see no reason why a clone cannot be trained to think with his own initiative, especially(excellent Gunter Rall bit btw ), in the midst of combat. Given he's been trained from birth he's probably more likely to wield the unpredictability-factor in a combat areana. Again, I don't see an basis for this to hold true. A clone is not a vegatable, it still thinks and is capable of initiative. He is more likely to use his imagination (why assume they lack this?) creatively than someone with less training and combat experiance. So I can't agree with this given what I said above. Fun this! Edit: One day, I will know how to spell.

Beatify is the verb your looking for SOCL.

But a good idea dude! BTW...along similar lines one of my neighbours is converting his 4x4 into a tank.* He reckons it should be able to just about take on an Abrahams tank when fully converted. He lives at the furthest reaches of my street and looks like a lobster. He's been peacefully 'cruising' around my neighbour hood for years now, but says he feels threatened by the American Army. He's going to join up with some Volvo estates converted with great cunning into British army Warrior-classarmoured cars and Liberate London at the battle of Downing Street. *I may be making this up.

Emm... well you may be right about the Empire not necessarily being comprised of a military machine omnipresant as may be largely presumed. What was Tarkin implying when he said 'Fear of this battle station will keep the local systems in order!' There was not an all pervading Imperial military presance on systems similar to Alderaan? Tarkin would not have destroyed Alderaan if their was an Imperial military presance maintaining Imperial Order, would he? So perhaps it was the 'dreaded' Imperial star fleet with it's capability to reduce the surface of planets to molten slag and the embarked regiments of stormtroopers that maintained order through out the Empire, except of course on key-worlds... ...

I won't go so far as to disagree without understand so, what? Pet + L = Pelt

...and with that goes the fact I broadly don't agree with how such issues as Civil Rights and Political Freedoms are resolved in the authors minds effecting my nation. Since i've been at it i've been striving for a secular state and seem to have been stung on these fronts with every issue. Not allowing religious-bigotary to influence my society can't be deemed as an assualt on civil liberties or political freedoms can it? Its a contradiction in terms lol

You fruitcake!

bless...

***mumbles about real-time forum debates*** Ok, given you asked, I will because it was a valid point. Star Wars Empire Volume One 'Betrayal' Page Two. **The scene: Coruscant 'a couple of weeks before the events in a New Hope.' Darth Vader is testing the skills of a group of Stormtroopers using his Lightsaber to deflect their shots at him. In the end he shouts enough and kills one of the Stormtroopers. Vader: My compliments. I trust the entire detachment has such precise marksmanship? Officer: Uh, of course Lord Vader. As usual, sir, they're identical in every way. Vader: The Empire can always use more mindless automations. See they're on Governor Tarkin's transport before nightfall. Throughout this publication Stormtroopers are refered to as 'drones.' GAT shows his strength of character quite frankly for requesting me to repost this ( I deleated it because I realized the source is EU) for probably the following point I subsequently put forward. And given the ongoing debate here I repect you for that dude! This was published in 2003 after the release date of AotC, inwhich the Star Wars Universe was finally given it's detail of the 'Clone Wars,' and a broader hint of the nature of the Empire Palpatine has so fiendishly created. The troopers are clones. Most references quoted by people concerning are drawn from EU stuff created before AotC was released and of course were in the dark about George Lucas' vision as far of his mythos goes; other than the usual Stormtroopers' faces can't be seen sort of thing (other than in one panel of 'Enemy of the Empire,' or the 'Dark Force Rising,' comics(who were clones) but always eels slip through the 'official' net). Basically, the EU must adapt itself around GL's movie vision as it unfolds, it more or less has done since the first two prequals, and will yet again be forced to after the upcomming third installment. I think this is what I said earlier that you asked me to repost GAT dude; you've no doubt got some cunning counter-reply to blast me away( ) but none of this is an ego issue is it... This to me finally confirms that Stormtroopers; in their role as 'Shocktroopers,'are clones. All of them. Of course the Empire had vast quantities of other military units available to them comprised of non-clones (because you can't comprise an entire field army with elite commandos; plus it takes away the concept of shocktroopers if non-shocktroopers comprise only a non-as effective minority...); logic would dictate they would have to to hold their Empire together; but we never got see much else of the SW Universe according to GL's vision in the original movies other than Tattooine (hunting for the droids), Besbin & Hoth (in their role as Shocktroopers) and Endor (as the latter but being defeated by fluffy-teddy bears *). *GL got one or two things slightly wrong.

Ok the images you use are from the original movies which GL made before all that flash graphics stuff he's been using in the prequals; they generally look the same size to me on screen despite having non-cloned actors underneath that shiny white armour. Your right about WW1 pilots having a reasonably crap chance of survival, but at least they are fighting in an atmosphere and where there is a (abit slim) chance of crash landing.

Holy wamprats!! Ignore this you must for it was me. I was trying to figure out how Cain 2 posted as a guest and then couldn't deleate it! Then I forgot all about it!!! Zouch! It wasn't posted to antagonize!! Oh, it is Portuguese, top of my head translates something like 'the car door is locked and the keys are on the inside!'

No worries dude! Part of the point of this thread is not to quote all the Star Wars Expanded Universe and/or canon rubbish (just my own opinion again) and concentrate on what we've seen in the films. The last page or two of this thread have pretty compelling arguments that a huge chunk of the Empire would be clones, and the mix and match approach to regiments of Stormtroopers wouln't work. Have you considered the effect it would have on the psychology of a regiment, half of whome are identical clones, and the other half enlisted men? Even keeping clone and enlisted regiments seperate wouldn't make much sense. TIE pilots. Well, in AotC we see some of the clone army as pilots; makes sense for them to evolve into TIE pilots. And consider my points concerning the psychology of someone prepared to fly one of them. According to the EU Alliance and Imperial fighters are like modern fighter jets and jets from the fourties... you can't conquer a galaxy with such equipment, and certainly no one would opt to fly one knowing their chances of overall survival are exceeding slim. Again, the mythology that has grown around the films has got it badly wrong. If you want to take everything in the EU on board that's upto you; but my personal Star Wars universe exists in what I see in the movies and what makes sense. Most of the EU doesn't. According to classic Star Wars 'The Early Adventures,' Darth Vader states he doesn't eat or drink whilst having a chat with Tarkin's widow. I think we'd all agree that's a slightly crap part of the EU! Likewise in the Phantom Affair Wedge and the lads capture a portable Death Star Super Laser. Where was this when the Vong began to start slaughtering the galaxy? And of course where do you draw the line with what's in and what's not in the EU? For these reasons I ignore anything other than what's in the films whilst trying to compose an intelligent argument; quite frankly because the EU mythology isn't. But that's just my opinion...

Err... dude, they don not appear to be small to me... Ok, another point i'll drag out of the past concerning this in particular; who in their right mind would willingly hop into an unshielded, unescapable, mercy of of a mother-ship, tactically superiorty fighterthat is essentially proven to be little more than target-practice pieces by Wedge and his glory boys other than conditioned clones trained for the task? In this respect no one 'normal' in their right mind would become a TIE pilot. So clones would suit the purpose. Given they wont have much concept of 'life,' it's probable their brainwashed minds might except death floating in space unable to go anywhere given their Star Destroyer just got taken out by a heroic volley of B-Wing blasts...

Well, it's not as if he frequents around here much anymore... is it....

There is yet another economic factor in the advantage of clones I muttered something about before, that is purely speculation; but if the Empire made their clones along the line of the replicants of Bladerunner, they would theoretically have the option of being able to set a life span on the troopers, thus avoiding the strange concept of Stormtroopers retiring into galactic society and the strange effect of so many identical genes entering the galactic pool... so the clones would die of 'natural courses,' at a conveniant age, and thus enable the Empire to avoid pension funds. They're brainwashed from conception so it wouldn't matter to much to their philosophic outlook on life, fish, and everything...

Woo to you Mike!

Actually if you add an 'L' you get a warm pair of gloves or a comfortable hat for hunting trips on Hoth...