Grand_Admiral_Thrawn

When you mentioned Heir to the Empire and Dark Force Rising you reminded me that Thrawn had cloned stormtroopers Jahled. I know he was brilliant and all, but he must have gotten this idea from somewhere. This, combined with the your post-that-was-delted-but-reposted are beginning to sway me closer to the clone side (though I still stand by my arguments). In WW I you could consider the Tri-plane to be of a different style. Compared to the other aircraft of the time it had superior maneuverability. I do take your point, however. The differences were really quite small, nothing compared to those between a TIE Fighter and an X-Wing. In reference to the Huntley, I believe the third (and final) crew was ordered to perform their mission. I don't think you could have gotten anyone to volunteer to get into a ship that had killed two previous crews. My take on this was the fact that the fleet was spread out ("in a vain attempt to engage us"). Even if the Imperial Star Fleet was massive, having their forces dispersed would greatly reduce it's efficiency. We can assume that, because the Rebellion was based inthe Outer Rime, the Imperial fleet was forced to cover an area substantially larger than before. I'm only playing devil's advocate however. I'm now of the opinion that the Empire may not have been as large, in terms of troops and ships, as is commonly believed. If we look at the Galaxy Map in the front of the NJO books we see that the galaxy isn's as large as one would suppose. The Unown Regions account for a good ammount of space, as does the Corperate Sector and Hutt space. Subtracting these we see that the Empire only had a "small" area of space to handle. A starfleet of thousands of shps, and perhaps 20-30 million troops could easily handle this. Local security could also take some of the burden, with Imperial Intelligence keeping tabs on them. As for the Home One I had always felt that that was always a vague name for a rebel ship. I thought there was some reference to it by another name, but hte details escape me. You take on the prequels and canon, encompasing the post-TPM EU make sence, but then there are some strange things in the NJO that we need to accept (some of the views on the force, Chewie's death, Kyp Duron (sorry, I hated him)). On the topic of canon, if we say the the movies are irrifutable, and the only true source for canon, then aren't we obliged to accept midichlorians, despite how much we hate the concept? GL didn't add anything to AotC to counter them, he simply let it fade away, but unfortunately every time we watch TPM, there is is. If so, then there are other questions relating to the Force that we would have to ask: if they're in your blood, can't they be extracted to create Jedi? Couldn't you make yourself more powerful by adding them to your blood? What connects the midichlorians to the Force? Do the midichlorians become evil if their host does? What is their favorite food? All questions we would have to contomplate.

There are some occasions where all of the stormtroopers are the same size. For example, wehn 3P0 and R2 are found in the closet (I'm assuming it was a closet) in the hangar controle room, all of the stormtroopers who came in were of the same height. In the end I'm not saying there weren't any clones in the Empire, I'm just saying they weren't all clones. Cloning would make sence. It ensure that your troops are all of the same abilities, but I still think that having to buy each clone would cost more than training a single recruit... but then, the thread's topic isn't about cost effective production . EDIT:Jahled, you should put your quote back up, the one you had in red. It was a good point, even though it was from the EU. Im just wondering, why hasn't anyone made the point that all of the differences we've seen in the movies be mutations or improvements upon the original sample? Maybe the Empire started cloning smaller stormtroopers for confined spaces . (this has been said to some degree, I know)

Well, the answer to that is simple: The stormtrooper that Luke took his armor from was larger than him. It's not as though tey stopped at the Stormtrooper Boutique and picked out their armor . I have already made mention that there is most likely a size requirement for stormtroopers, and that his would explain both the quote, and the reason for all the stormtroopers being of or around the same height. If you take a look at this image, we see that the height of stormtroopers does indeed vary. The stormtrooper on far side in the front, as well as the nearest in the back are noticably shorter than the rest in the group. this image shows the height difference even more clearly. Indeed, if you compare this to Han and Luke in the armor, we find that the height difference is about the same. You will also notice that the armor fits equally well on both troopers. Some stormtroopers in this image are aslo shorter, though some of them only appear to be as they are in an "action pose". Now, taking that into consideration, look at this image just after Luke, Leia Han and Chewie escape the garbage compactor. We see that stormtrooper armor is a single piece for the most part. So, if shorter stormtroopers were to fit as well into their armor as those that are larger than them, they would need a smaller set of armor. Because the white plasteel segments are attached to the black underlay, I suggest that the underlay of able to stretch to a degree, allowing stormtroopers upto a certain height to wear a specific size. If we go back to the First World War we find pilots, who weren't clones, getting into planes that were nothing more than an engine strapped to a canvas wrapped frame, taking them into the air and firing machine guns at other pilots. Insain, yes, but they did it. Or what of the crew of the Huntley, who took an iron tube barely large enough to fit her crew, into open water with an explosive strapped to the end, with now way of replenishing their air, to sink a ship. Not only that, but they went after the first crew of the Huntley died in their attempt. It may be stupid, but they're soldiers, that's what they do. Thay may be trained from birth, but they would get to know their fellow clones while training, as well as between combat situations. They would form relationships, unless they were modified to feel no emotion, which may or may not be the case.

Quite a good topic indeed . With Scath gone we were lacking on debates and fast-paced discussions!

The smaller sizes of hypothetical Stormtrooper armor would have a lower cost as they use fewer materials. That you are producing more than one size doesn't increase/decrease the cost of production, it simply means that you won't be able to produce the same volume as you would of clone trooper armor. Of course, to really get an idea of how many variation of Stormtooper armor there is we would have to look at the movies. I very much doubt that the Empire said to KDY in the development of the ISD "Well, the average height of a Stormtrooper is "X", so you're going to have to make the ship twenty meters longer, and five wider to accomodate". Does the U.S. army say "well, this Abrams tank can't accomodate a driver over two and a quarter meters, so we'll have to make it bigger"? No, they say, sorry my large friend, you can't drive this tank. Each roll would be filled by a person who meets the qualifications for that roll. For example, from what we see of the TIE pilots in the movies, they are of a rather short stock. Also, according to the StarWars.com, only 10% of eligable TIE Pilot candidates are chosen for duty. I think from that it's safe to assume that the Empire has no problems narrowing prospecitve candidates. Also, if you look at StarWars.com, Stormtroopers are listed as being 1.83 meters in height. While I'm sure this is an average, it also gives us an idea of what the Empire was looking for in a Stormtrooper. Or the Empire could take the same rout as the American Army. The American training regiment is as harsh as it is because it wants to break their recruits down, and then mold them into the soldier they want. I also think paying a trainer is cheaper than paying to operate a cloneing facility. This I agree with emphatically. Having the ability to use any organ for any member of an army is very useful, and it certainly takes some of the complications out of medical treatment. As for the medics, I don't think training them for a plethera of humanoid species would be a significant increase in spending. We know that all Stormtroopers are human. We know this because you can't fit a Quarren, Mon Cal, Ithorian, Devorian, Ishi Tib, Weequay or Gotal into that helmet (well, maybe a Weequay). There probably isn't much variation between the humanoid species in the Star Wars galaxy. Or they would calculate an average and assign rations for each trooper. An army doesn't run in a way that is tailored for each trooper, they run as a single body, and every one gets the same ammount of equipment and food (depending on rank that is) as the next man. There is no need to cater to each individual's needs. I know what you're saying, but simply because there is diversity to some extent doesn't mean mass production isn't possible. All of the AT-ATs in the Empire would still be the same if each Stormtrooper were different, as would the size of the bunks, weight of the E-11 blasterand the ammount of food provided. By restricting the physical attributes of a candidate they can solve any problems involving a great variation. Considering the size of the pool the Empire has to draw candidates from, I don't think whittling that pool down a little would hurt. I agree that the Empire certainly fits that philosophy, and as I've said before, I'm f the opinion that the cost of running a clone army would be the same as running a recruited army. The cost difference comes in the development. If the Empire isn't producing the clones, they have to buy them. What does each clone cost? We don't ahve numbers, but I'm willing to bet it makes more sence to pull some guy off the street who qualifies than to pay someone to grow a trooper for you. I also want to mention that Jahled was correct, and that Stormtroopers are not the mainstay of the Imperial Army. According to StarWars.com they aren't even affiliated with the Army, but are of their own orginization. They are described as "shock troops" and as an "elite unit". Though this goes agains what my opinion is, I think that this would certainly support the idea that Stormtroopers are clones. Because each Stormtrooper battalion only has 820 men, cloning them would be simple. This also supports my views to some extend. Because they are only small groups, the Empire wouldn't have to recruit as many men to fill them. There also wouldn't be as many units of armor and weapons to produce for them. On a side note, how large would the Imperial Army be? In AotC we hear that there is 1 million more units on the way... but for a galaxy-spanning government, that's pretty small. How many years had the clone army been in production prior to AotC?

Wow, if my local theatre weas selling advanced tickets I'd be there too! So is your ticket for the Midnight showing?

I sort of combined your second and fifth point together. They are "trained" (or programmed) for nothing but military service, and have the knowledge required for utilizing their vehicles and weapons to the fullest. What I meant was, I already agree that clones are better, saying "no, they aren't better, they're much buetter" is pointless. I know they're better than droids, I simply felt that the term "elite" wasn't appropriate for them. Ok, so far you've a greed with me: training a Stormtooper is cheaper than growing a Clone. The matter is open to debate, howver. Can you tell me how much it costs to grow a clone? Buy armor? What is the cost for equipment to train a clone? What do the Kaminoans charge for a single unit? None of these variables are known, but we can look at the situation and form an opinion. The only advantage to having an army that is entirely identicle is that you don't need to produce more than one size of armor, and even there you can allow for various body sizes and shapes by making certain aspects adaptable to a certain degree. There may be three sizes of Stortrooper armor, each expandable to a limit. If you are above or below the limit of the upper and lower most sizes, you're not qualified to be a Stormtrooper. The vehicles and housing for the troops wouldn't chage at all, so I fail to see how the rest of the variables come in. I suppose this depends on whether or not you're a pro-midichlorian person . The answer to this may lie in the nature of the Force.

That is quite possibly the most disgusting thing I have ever seen! At first I though the "Potted Meat" was the only star on that page, but by the time I made it down to the "Fermented Soybeans I was certain the webpage was maintained by a madman!

The concept of an Ewok Holocaust came up in the Star Wars Insider Mag. It was quickley stated that no such thing had occured, and to stupid stories were proved, one having something to do with a wormhole and Vader's glove. Neither was very convincing, but it is Star Wars, so I suppose we have to cut them some slack.

Three of those traits can also be applied to the droid army. Their programming was restricted to a military nature and could be updated as new and more advanced weapons and vehicles were developed. And what's more subserviant than a droid in the Star Wars galaxy? I wasn't arguing that the clones aren't better (or "far superior", which is nothing more than word semantics) than droids, I was simply saying that they aren't "the elite of the elite". From what I've seen one of Grievous' bodyguards is far more capable than any droid or clone depicted thus far, and might even pose a threat to a Jedi. While the design of a clone is a one time process, the Kaminoans were running a business, and the Republic would have to pay a marked-up price for each unit. Then there is the cost of suddenly having to feed and maintain your new-found army and vehicles. Maintenance, replacement of lost or damaged ships and vehicles, ammunition, damaged equipment. Considering there was previousely no money allocated for these things, I'd say it costs quite a bit. Because the Kaminoans would have to maintain the cloning facilities, the cost of each unit would increase again accordingly. Many of the costs listed above would, of course, apply to any army, but it is the sudden inflation of the army that would cause problems, and a prolonged expansion by a mass-injection of troops would take its toll. It might be cheaper to train a Stormtooper than to grow one and pay the going rate for them Yes, but he could have also enslaved the Kuaty to produce cheaper Star Destroyers, or taken Seinar Fleet Systems into govermnet control, but as far as we know he didn't (I know, this isn't a movie example, but as it doesn't directly relate to cloning I flet it appropriate. If not, ignore this point ). Up to this point we only have EU sources that state not only that Paplitane was xenophobic, but also that he supported the slavery of other races. I don't think we can safely state anything along those lines at the moment. I believe Jahled used them as an example suggesting that troopers of their kind were the true general infantry of the Empire. I was simply mentioning how small their numbers were to suggest otherwise. The major reason why I oppose the idea of the vast number of Stormtroopers, or indeed any masked troopers, being clones is, if Palpitane had the ability to clone as many troops as he wanted, why didn't he clone Jedi and twist them to the Dark Side? He knew his plans for the Jedi Order, and a legion of Sith would have been far more usefull than one Dark Jedi leading a bunch of clones, and it certainly would have helped him solidify and maintain his power once the Jedi were gone. I've noticed that between the time my page loaded and when I pressed the "Post Reply" button Jahled has posted, so I'll read your post then edit . EDIT:Now I see what you meant. It would certainly be easier for a clone regiment to acquire such a mindset in combat, but then, we don't really know how the Empire would train a non-clone to become a Stormtrooper. I doubt that any training would result in an equal to a clone, but it might be easier.

Which Zanshin were you talking about? The karate, the art, or the website created because not enough websites start with z ? Clones aren't the "elite of the elite", they're simply better than droids (due only to the fact that they are capable of independant thought), and they certainly aren't created on a budget. Sure, you only have to buy one size of combat armor, but remember that the cloners are friendly depending on "how good your manners are, and how big your pocket-book is". As for the guys in black, they're described as Death Star troopers or naval troopers. They always seem to be stationed at military instilations or aboard ships, but never in great numbers. My impression from the movies was that Stormtroopers are the general infantry of the Empire, and that all the other variable troopers are simply specialists.

I thought this was sort of interesting. I'm not sure why anyone would sell their name in such a way, even to send to send a child to golf school (which is certainly the goal of my life )

You really won't be able to tell whether this is true or not until the game is actually released. I'm sure they are posting on forums with the expected "Thanks for the input! We'll put it to use!", but in the end it's nothing but fluff. Almost every game with a forum of its own has devs posting, trying to keep the community hyped up, so unless you're privy to information the rest of the world isn't, I'd say you've fallen victim to their ploy. As for the fact that Petroglyph is the primary company developing EaW, that's also moot. Sure, it's their guys doing the work, but LucasArts still owns the title. I think we all know who's really calling the shots.

I had tied it in by noting that the officers in the Clone Army were also clones (Yoda calling one Commander). If one is willing to replace those who make executive decisions with non-enhanced folks, why not do the same with the grunts? I must admit that Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace were all Generals, so it couls stand to reason that most decisions were made by the Jedi in the initial stages of the war, and that Tagge and Veers were simply filling the gaps left by the Jedi purge...

That was the direction I was leaning as well, what with all the talk of gravity wells. I'll have to pick up a book on the String Theory and see...

Before the Republic took command of the Clone Army, they didn't have a military to speak of (this is the impression I got from AotC). That would explain why the Trade Federation was allowed to have its own army, and why there was a debate in the senate about the formation of a Republic Army. So, because there was no army, Tagge and Veers could not have simply been officers from another generation. They would have had to be recruited from the general populace, indicating that the Empire began recruitment rather than restricting it's army expansion to cloning.

The question is, does that model of Hyperspace and faster-than-light travel utilize the Genreal Theory of Relativity and other theories of its time, or does it use the modern String Theory. The former, all of Einstein's work and that of others prior to the mid 80's, doesn't take into accound gravity because any equations solved with a gravity variable that is realistic gave unreasonable answers. Therefor, physicists stopped calculating for all situations but those in which gravity was so weak it's effect on the outcome was negligable. String Theory is the link between quantom mechanics and gravity. This also leads to the Super String Theory and the M Theory. From what I'veread your explaination of dimensions follows suit with this theory. I haven't been able to find an article that clearly links time travel with the String or Super Sting theories, so I can't be sure where we stand, or if the well-known idea of how to make it possible was already based on these theories.

Anakin was killed in Star by Star while on a mission to a Vong World Ship orbiting Myrkyr, in an attemtp to destroy the Voxyn. He was mortally injured, but took so much Force power into his body that as he used it he was slowly destroyed (physically that is). I was curious about the two Dark Jedi that were in this book. Where are they from, and why is it that nothing more was said of them after they stole the team's ship and ran away? I think two Dark Jedi would have been potent agains the Vong. Hmm, you should have met Nom Anor already. He was the leader of the fanatically anti-droid faction ruling a planet in volved in a dispute that Leia had to settle. I believe it resulted in the destruction of one of the planets.

It has been argued that the Empire may have taken multiple other genetic samples from individuals thought to be exemplary in their performance, but I think that is a little weak. I don't think anyone has taken the Death Star Troopers into consideration before! They would seem to suggest that not all Stormtroopers are clones, though, as you pointed out, they aren't Stormtroopers. We must consider the fact that there are officers in the Imperial Army though. How can you have officers who aren't clones, if your army was created completely out of clones? We hear yoda refer to one clone as Commander, suggesting that the officers in the initial Clone Army were clones themselves. So, if officers such as Tagge and Veers exist, doesn't that suggest that the Imperial Army utilized recruitment as well as cloning? It should also be noted that, as the Republic had no army before the Clone Army, it's not possible that Tagge and Veers are from a time before the Empire.

The article said that they are aiming for a fall release for this year. I'm assuming that they're hoping to play off of the popularity of Episode III, but it will also put them in the market for the Christmas season. I didn't mind Battlefront, but there were alot of thing that were wrong with it. There wasn't anything new to the genre. They ruined the Dark Troper IMO. Not because of its jump pack, but because of the shotgun-style weapon he uses. That was fixed in a mod, where it was replaced with an E-11, but it shouldn't have happened. If the starfighters had been a little more useful the game certainly would have gained. There was also an issue with an imbalance between sides, and even within classes on a certain faction (I don't know how many people I saw as Jetpack troopers for the Clones!) With any luck these swill be improved upon in BF 2, but I'm still going to stay a little wary.

Well, after ten minutes of trying to find a name that's not already in use: This is my nation . I'll need to come up with a unique flag, but that one shall do for now.

That would certainly make sence. I found the references to Master Sipho Deas (or Sifo-Deas, Cypho Dias, or however it is spelled ) a little under developedm but I suppose it was suppose to be a mystery. I hope it's not Palpy though, as that woult be a little too simple.

Yeah, at one point I wanted to trade my copy of XWA in at my local EB, but it turned out that they were selling it for a cent the day before (that's one cent Canadian!). The level size did bother my in Republic Commando, as did the fact that the game only had three "missions" (really one long mission on each of the three planets). It could have been more. I also found the game a little scripted. There wasn't any room for improvization .

I've never really understood why people would buy a "functioning" lightsaber like that. I know it's cool, but wouldn't you want to be able to duel with it (not in line please, that's just embarassing for the rest of us waiting to see the movie!)? Even the Master Replicas lighsabres, with their sturdy blades, can't be used for that. You'r only option would be the childrens lightsabers with telescopic blades. Still cool though, LLF! They used to be $900, so it looks as though he's able to get cheaper parts.

Well, that was the original topic. But I think we veered into canon, things that were a mess in the other movies, the EU etc... but I think we've done that in a few threads lately . From what I've seen in the two trailers, I don't think RotS needs to be saved. I think we'll need to be saved from heart palpitations after we finish watching it