SOCL

...didn't we once have a thread in Outside Interests for this sort of stuff? Wasn't it called "Random Insanity of the Woo Yay Kind"? If we didn't and I'm just making things up, then shouldn't we? You know, a permanent thread where one can post about anything and everything (i.e. life in general). Ehh, moderators/staffies?

What operating system do you have (i.e. Windows XP, 98, Me, 2000, etc)?

So you're suggesting to exclude the inclusion... Um... yeah, if that's what I wrote, I suppose that's what I meant. ::rereading own text:: Yeah! That is what I meant!

I didn't realize we were being mean. I suppose I'm simply mean by nature.

Are you guys waging some kind of strange post war?

What's new? You were born a tad off... Thanks.

What's that all about, Scath? The fact that Thrawn wears a grand admiral's uniform as a vice admiral and other occasions where people who are not grand admirals wear the white uniform leaves to assume that a grand admiral can wear whatever the hell he wants. Additionally, he's a Grand Admiral...I mean, who's going to tell him otherwise. Granted, perhaps the fact that people who aren't grand admirals wear the uniform of a grand admiral doesn't justify the claim that grand admirals don't always wear the white uniform, it does tell us that we shouldn't assume that just because someone wears a white uniform means they are a grand admiral. As far as my sources go for the Lieutenant Commander switch-side dilema: We know that the Decipher cards tend to be a tad if not totally off when it comes to ranks for characters. Evidence can be found here. Furthermore, Gherant is wearing what we know to be a Naval captain's insignia (Needa and Piett wore the same insignia as captains). Credibility for Decipher cards isn't the best. As far as the discussion of Imperial ships at Endor, we've had a long and extensive discussion concerning the Battle of Endor (both ground and space) many times in these forums. We good shot of the amount of Imperial ships is the one looking out the DSII's window. Sadly, I can't locate information as quickly as I used to be able to (Scath remembers those days) simply because I've been out of the loop for some time and I've lost a good portion of my memory, so I won't argue this point any further until I can find the information to which I used to make references. Look around the forums and you'll probably find our old Battle of Endor discussion (not a debate, but an all-out, "everyone bring as much information forward" discussion) with every piece of evidence known to humankind. I suppose I assumed the other links to various sites I had put up would be sufficient (and should have been, had you read them through thoroughly), but if links to everything I say are required, then I'd be happy to do post such.

Fair?! Look who you were addressing! Hey, am I part of the Spamming elite? By the way, Trej, guess which selection I voted for. Great GIF, Jahled! [/spam]

To answer the original question to this thread (and I'm probably disrupting the flow), I now watch my movies in numerical order if I watch the prequels at all. Normally, though, I simply watch whichever strikes my mood (though if I watch Empire, then I have to watch Jedi soon after). Agreed. It would be interesting to see a re-release of the DVDs with better changes in them, go and include the exclusion of the Gungans, Naboo, and...well, hell, why not all the prequels(?).

That's the assumption most of us have. I never thought of that, but the side viewscreen Vader is looking out toward the Millenium Falcon is the correct side to be looking (the Falcon was flying on the Executor's right side), so it seems more likely that someone messed up with the costume, as you stated: I have no idea where you got the idea that insignia goes on different sides of your uniform depending on rank, but this is wrong. Insignia remains on the same side, no matter what rank you are. As far the uniform goes, the insignia then might change positioning because of different regulations, but the insignia does not change sides depending on rank. On situation. Wearing a white uniform denotes a grand admiral, but not wearing a white uniform does not necessarily mean you are not a grand admiral. Grand Admirals can wear any sort of uniform he desires; the fact that most choose to wear the special white uniform has nothing to do with it. Okay, no, it wasn't merely the "Death Squadron plus a few other ships", it was somewhere around 22+ ships. We're talking about the Executor, the other 5 ISDs of the Death Squadron (Accuser, Devastator, Tyrant, Avenger, and I believe Conquest), and a slew of other Star Destroyers, of which we know some like the Chimaera, the Adjucator, and Pulsar. We also have reason to believe that other ships of larger classes (such as a large communications ship) may have been present. The question, of course, is why? Why would they do such a thing when Palpatine and Vader are already far above them in both rank and status. I seriously doubt that had anything to do with it. Besides, the "insignia blooper" renders this argument moot. Interesting, I'll have to watch to see that. This may explain the blooper at the end of Empire, but regardless, that would mean either Vader was looking out the wrong viewscreen to start with, or the Millenium Falcon is flying on the wrong side of the Executor. An examination of Piett's uniform will be needed to determine whether or not the image was flipped. EDIT: Not to sound rude, but please try not to state things without having backing evidence. Thanks.

If you're building small, tactical Imperial fleets/squadrons that deploy on "hunting" missions or what-not, I'd say: -1-2 ISDs or 2-3 VSDs -1 Interdictor -2-3 Lancers/Carracks -2-3 Strikes -1 Escort Carrier (depending on your squadron's mission) I'm under the philosophy that many small, heavy squadrons are better than HUGE fleets. Granted, if you can have many, HUGE fleets, it's better, but if you have to choose between a HUGE fleet or many small, weapons-heavy fleet, go with the latter. On the larger scale, I try to keep at least 1 Death Star per every three sectors (I call them Oversectors), 1 SSD per Sector, and 2 ISDs/3 VSDs per System (with support craft for each, of course, as listed above). This is how I do it, and it's worked-out pretty well. It established a skeleton on which to work on. I would also recommend making "Expeditionary/Hunting Squadrons" that maneuver around Oversectors/Sectors taking out insurgent Rebel fleets.

I hadn't noticed the black instead of blue bars, but I know at the end of Empire, Piett's insignia jumps to incorrect side (as does the lieutenant's), but then it's on the correct side for the bridge officer in the crewpit. Of course, Piett's insignia is a mistake. An interesting argument, one that some of you may be interested in, is that in ROTJ Piett was promoted to High Admiral or even Grand Admiral. This is an argument I read sometime back (made by a Piett fan, of course), but the rationale is that the fleet massed at the Battle of Endor was on the scale of a Sector Group and would warrant the flag of a High Admiral or Grand Admiral. I find this hard to believe...if the Imperial fleet at Endor was the size of a Sector Group, then the Imperial Navy (shipwise) must have been pretty small, and we know for a fact it was nothing of the sort. Something else most people don't realize is that Darth Vader appointed Piett, a captain, to take Ozzel's position. He did not promote Piett to admiral. So why the fleet admiral insignia? Well, no one was going to follow the orders of a mere captain aboard the Executor, so he was given the insignia as a way to denote his command. This is done quite often in real-life, especially during fierce combat involving many casualties, and is normally called a "battlefield promotion." Basically, the person is the next one in line to command and so he or she takes over, but because his or her rank is not sufficient to command the units under his or her command, he or she must be given the rank so as to have that authority. This happened quite a bit in the first World War of the early 1900s and the Vietnam conflict of the 1960s and 1970s. At times, after combat had ended, these battlefield promotions would remain...and sometimes they would not and the person given the battlefield promotion would return to the rank he or she was before. In the case of Piett, it is possible--however, unlikely--that he would have been returned to Captain by Supreme Naval Command after the Battle of Endor. Odds are, though, that by the time of the Battle of Endor, Piett had already been formally promoted to at least Commodore (the rank of a traditional Squadron Commander, which was the position of flag to Vader's Death Squadron); of course, we have no way of knowing this since the "insignia blooper" had no mercy. It would be interesting, though, to find out whether or not Piett was demoted for his failure to capture the Millenium Flacon in those last minutes of The Empire Strikes Back.... Just a rant. -BEAK-

I believe the EU, like the UN, to be a good thing. Granted, the UN has no real power (which really sucks) and for the most part it has to do with the fact that the UN can't really do much when one it's own goes rogue. As far as the EU goes, I see it as a uniting force that will help most of Europe (yes, I don't live there, so perhaps I'm a tad off). I've heard the argument, though, that weak economic nations would not help the EU, but bring it down. As see this as a chance to help those nations at the expense of a few stingy, greedy people grumbling curses. The most interesting argument, though, has always been the idea that joining a union is a loss of sovereignty. Many of my friends present this as an argument for the USA to leave the UN, but on the flip side, why don't states belonging to the USA leave...after all, the USA itself is nothing more than a union. I don't see the EU or any other union as a threat, but a uniting force for the common good. A force that, if utilized correctly, will help hundreds of thousands of people. As a matter of fact, I see it as a basic confederation: many states united under one near-government for the common good of the region. No one person can call all the shots (like the USA basically does in the UN), leaving every member-state autonomous, yet everyone is united. Maybe I'm just an idealist.

Hey, how do you guys like the name Imperial Tempest and Ticonderoga?

Okay, I should have been a tad more specific about what I said. I know what there is to know about the USA's Armed Forces from personal experience and interactions with every branch of the service, to include the Coast Guard. My father personally served in the Marine Corps, the Army, and the Navy, as well as worked as a liaison for the Air Force and the Coast Guard. Now, I did not mean to open the door into the epaulet and boards and what-not the different branches have because those depend very much on what uniform is being worn. What I was referring to was the standard pin-on insignia used by the USA's Armed Forces. The only difference is between the Navy's O-3 pay grade and the Army's O-3 pay grade: the bar's are slightly different, but that has to do with another topic that is not relevent. My point: USA's Armed Forces pin-on insignia are all the same, and most Armed Forces around the world have some form of standard insignia to denote the same levels of seniority between different branches. Considering how enormous the Star Wars military must be, it is quite safe to assume that there is at least one form of standard insignia (i.e. what Dr. Saxton nicknames the "Aesthetic 1", the most standardized form of insignia, featrued mostly in ESB). That standard insignia system is what Scathane and I used as a basis for our ranking system; then we substituted some of the standard insignia for ones in the other two Aesthetic patterns, to give variety to the system. Here are a few reference URL's to visit to understand these systems a tad better: Imperial Insignia: Officers Imperial Insignia: Officer Examples A rank Scath and I added in to the Fighter branch system was that of acting pilot officer, a British rank that makes sense to exist as a training rank (equal in status to an Imperial Navy ensign). Something interesting I observed in the ROTJ "insignia blooper" is that it has an almost-pattern to it. If you watch, you'll notice that higher ranking officers, such as Moff Jerjerrod and Fleet Admiral Piett, have two rank cylinders rather than the one everyone else seems to have. This goes against Dr. Saxton's rank cylinder system, yet is excusable since the "insignia blooper" alone already makes any insignia or insignia-related system in ROTJ invalid. -BEAK-

I watched ROTJ and, in retrospect, the DVD changes aren't that bad. I mean, Jabba didn't need to be made more CGI-looking, but that's okay. It would be better to keep Boba Fett's original voice, but that's okayish. The conversation between Vader and the Emperor gives away Luke being Vader's son, but when people like us who watched the movies from IV-VI and then I-III are gone, everyone will watch them I-VI and the secret won't be a secret--so it's okay. Luke's lack of scream as he falls in Cloud City is okay. BUT Hayden Christensen in the end of scene of ROTJ?! NO WAY IN HELL WILL I SAY THAT'S OKAY! As a matter of fact, it's down-right EVIL! I mean, what I understand is that when you die like Obi-Wan or Yoda, and become a ghost, you revert to the last good form of yourself. Had Anakin died as Darth Vader, then I understand why the young, pre-Vader Anakin was put in, but he didn't! No, Anakin died as post-Darth Vader Anakin Skywalker; he rebecame Anakin Skywalker when he killed Palpatine (or at least, that's how I see it), so the older Anakin should have been left in! Besides, Christensen looks out of place and evil next to jolly ol' Yoda and Ben! I understand that in the future, people will recognize the Christensen Anakin far more than the post-Vader Anakin, but still! My biggest beef with the DVDs: Hayden Christensen stuck in at the end of ROTJ! Regardless, I'm glad to see most people believe the original Boba Fett voice was superior to the Jango Fett voice.

Okay, calm down _Thrawn; I made no assault on you. First off, Lucas and his costume designers were both American, and as Americans, they used the closest example they could of insignia--the American military. In the USA's Armed Forces, insignia is the same for officers, no matter what branch they are in, while enlisted insignia is different depending on the branch...just like in Star Wars. Now, we can go back and forth for years about how we can not rely on Earthly ranks for Star Wars, but lets get one thing straight: We're not from the Star Wars Universe, we're from Earth, and, thus, we have to rationalize the ranks in a way that make sense to us; therefore, for all instensive purposes, the ranks are based off of Earthly ranks (not mention Lucas and his costume designers--though some will debat this--are also from Earth). But even so, excluding the American ranking system, we could follow any other ranking system in the world and it still comes out to the same basic system...and when translated into terms we can understand, then it makes even more sense and looks even more similar. Some ranks are based on branch (i.e. Admiral is clearly a Naval rank), whereas others are based on duty (i.e. High Colonel is someone of Colonel-level status, but General-level responsibility). Additionally, we, like Curtis Saxton, must remember that ranks each meant something. For instance, Corporal means "a man of the corps", not today's connotation of a mere rank within the enlisted military ranks. Now, taking all this into consideration, the ranking system developed by Dr. Saxton and then modified a tad to present parallel structure is the best that can be done. Admirals will never be in charge of Generals and Colonels. Generals will never be in charge of Naval Captains and Commanders. There can be special situations where there is a flag officer in command of all units, but that is the same as General Eisenhower, an American general, being in command of all Allied forces in Europe during World War II: his command was based on position, not[/i] rank. Understood? So in theory a Colonel could be appointed to command a who slew of Admirals. Would this happen? Odds are, no (colonel is lower on pay grade than admiral, and colonel is Army, admiral is Navy), but in theory it could happen. Anyhow, there is a theory that says that the insignia distinguishes Naval officers from Army officers, but this can easily be dismissed considering the amount of different insignia systems we have seen throughout Star Wars (read the SWTC for more on that, but basically there is one in ANH and another in ESB...ROTJ had an insignia flaw in it, so it is not a credible source). It simply goes on a person-to-person/need-to-know basis. Veers is a Lieutenant General, Ozzel is a Fleet Admiral, Piett is a Captain (later "battlefield promoted" to Fleet Admiral), Needa is a Captain (identical to Piett's), the lieutenant standing behind Piett at the end of ESB is a lieutenant just like the Snowtrooper lieutenant Veers speaks to aboard Veers' AT-AT (the best indication of two different branches of the military, yet the same insignia), and so forth. You simply have to know...and if you don't, well, you probably don't need to know (or so was the Imperial mentality concerning this matter). Trust me on this matter, I've researched this matter to death.

In point of fact, no, it is not the same person...read the ESB credits. There you'll find out that in ESB it's only a voice...which leads me to my next point... I'm not sure about Palpatine's voice being done by a female in ESB, but I do know it wasn't the same guy as in ROTJ or the prequels. I also came to find out today why the reason the original holo in ESB is so blurry; as it turns out, it was a very primitive form of CGI, just like the little Vader holo in Veer's AT-AT or the person walking on Jabba's sailbarge (after the Bantha herd scene) in ROTJ. Interesting, ehh? EDIT/ADD-ON By the way, I finished watching the DVD of ESB and in retorspect, I don't really hate the new Boba Fett voice, I just liked the original FAR more. I mean, at least here in the USA, Australians or anyone with an Australian accent is sterotyped as a badass (too much Crocodile Dundee, I imagine) and so putting an Australian accent on Boba Fett still keeps the badass feel, it just gives him too much of a Jango Fett feel and not enough individuality. Additionally, I may seem weird, but I miss the screaming Luke falling in Cloud City. I know, it sounded whimpy and all, but I don't know about you, if I was falling that many stories, that quickly after having fought Darth Vader, gotten my hand cut-off, and found out Vader wasmy father, I would screaming like a little girl too , not to mention pissing my pants. Today I shall watch ROTJ and report back.

Jeez, Scath, you and _Thrawn really went at it. I don't have much more to say that you haven't already said, but I really do wish I had been there. What frustrated me more than anything was when _Thrawn addressed the fact that Veers was aboard a Naval vessel (i.e. the Executor). Yes, he is an Army officer aboard a Naval vessel...so what? Ground forces need to be transported in some way. Additionally, many Naval vessels in the Star Wars Universe have garrisons aboard, making them bases for Army operations. We have to imagine Naval vessels as the core of the any military force in the SW Universe. It serves the normal functions of a Naval vessel, a base of operations for Army units, and a base of operations for Fighter units. This does not mean, however, that all Naval vessels are thus (a good analogy is: "A bird can fly, but a fly can't bird"...it can work in one direction, but does not necessarily work in the other). So we can have vessels like Lancer-class frigates that serve only a Naval purpose, or we can have Star Galleons that serve an Army purpose (transport) yet are operated by a Naval crew; or we can have Carriers (like the Escort Carrier in Rebellion) that serves a Fighter purpose (transport) yet is operated by a Naval crew; or we have the amazing Star Destroyers that serve as an Army transport, a Naval warship, and a Fighter base, yet--as always--is operated by a Naval crew. We have to few the Army in SW as present-day U.S. Marines, they rely on the Navy yet operate outside of the Navy's command structure. I could probably...no, I could go on, but with no challenge or question posed, (for once) I see no reason. Oh, yeah, the Grand Imperator of BEAK is back!

Well, GAT and myself had a real nice debate about Star Wars ranks & insignia a few posts back in this thread... You should really scroll back a few posts and read it: you'll like it! It starts about here.I will do just that. Yes, you do..., er..., what exactly? Silly, Scath. I was answering my own question about questions concerning ranks and insignia (if that made sense)... Basically, I was asking if I could get my own personal insignia, seeing as I'm back and all.

I feared this. Why would they put in Christensen? His he now the holy symbol of pre-Vader Anakin? I mean, he looks like a f*cking 10 year-old! Shouldn't they have gone with the original idea and simply but the old Anakin in, I mean, wouldn't be become the last form of Anakin before death (i.e. not before Vader but before death aboard Death Star II)? And Obi-Wan, wouldn't the same apply? Foolish Lucas, Star Wars is for the fans (NOT for George It's-Mine-Not-Yours Lucas)!

Pity, on my parents computer is a file with the complete list of all Star Destroyer names to ever appear in anything Star Wars (novels, movies, comics, etc.). If I can somehow get that file (along witha dozen others I need), I'll post it up. And, no, this wasn't something I did on my own, it was a file I did as a hobby for a guy who ran a website solely about Star Destoryers...the websites down by now.

Who has questions concerning ranks and/or insignia? Speak now, the Grand Imperator of BEAK listens! Actually, I do. Scath, is there any chance I can get my personal insignia?

Okay, so like a loyal Star Wars fan, I purchased by original trilogy DVDs at midnight-oh-one at my local Hastings (people from all walks of geeky life were there, as well as a member of our local 501st TIE Fighter Wing chapter in full outfit). I spent the better part of the next day watching the first two movies and I came to realize something...there are more changes! Okay, maybe all of you know this, but I've been out of the loop for quite a while and so, as you can image, this came as quite a shock to me! I know there are a few minor changes in ANH, but nothing to really scream over. It wasn't until I started watching TESB that I really started to notice changes. For instance, what's with the change in the conversaiton between Vader and Palpatine aboard the Executor? I mean, did they really need to change it? Granted, it allows the two trilogies to flow better, it still kills some of the mystery the Emperor's blurring hologram gave one. Plus, the image is so clear that we see an obvious change in looks from TESB to ROTJ. What sucks even more is that whoever did Palpatine's part in TESB must be pretty damned pissed off at having been TOTALLY cut-out. My complaints about this change: A) Palpatine loses the mysticism he had a blurring hologram, B) Palpatine in TESB is very obviously not Palpatine from ROTJ, and C) the added lines have been repeated throughout the entire series ("Search your feelings...."), not to mention it looks a little stupid when Palpatine has to tell Vader who is son is (Vader couldn't recognize a Force signature of his own flesh and blood?). It's like: Palpatine: "Hey, you big stupid breathing machine, your son is the one who blew up my planet-destorying toy!" Vader: "Oh, was that my son?" Palpatine: "Yeah, moron! Search your feelings, it obviously him!" Vader: "Oh...." Next problem I had with TESB, and probably my biggest beef out of all the changes is Boba Fett's voice. IT'S BEEN CHANGED! They changed Boba Fett's voice with a voice-over done by the guy who played Jango Fett (not to mention the other three and half billion clones of the Grand Army of the Republic)! Maybe this doesn't piss off some people, but the original Boba Fett voice was SO much better than this Jango Fett crap! I hated Lucas for making Boba Fett a clone and now I hate him even more for changing his voice! I mean, just because he's a clone does not mean his voice has to be the same as Jango's! I mean, he could have a bloody cold, or how about he somehow messed up his throat in childhood?! But, damn it, they took out the cool, gruff, whisper-of-a-voice he had before for Jango's precise-cut one! WHAT THE HELL?! Jeremy Bulloch (the original Boba Fett) I'm sure isn't too happy. You see, this all has to do with a theory I had created about Boba Fett (my way of dealing with the whole clone crap). I said to myself, Boba Fett is a clone of Jango Fett in the prequels, but somewhere between Episode III and Episode V, Boba Fett is killed by a guy from Concord Dawn named Jaster Mereel (the ORIGINIAL Boba Fett), who then takes on the name and image of the infamous clone of Jango Fett, Boba Fett. How does that sound (yes, I was in denial)? But now, NO, Lucas f*cked all of that up(!), pardon my colorful language. After hearing Jango Fett's voice saying "As you wish" to Vader aboard the Executor, I shut the DVD off and started to complain to anyone who would listen. Most of them agreed with me over this matter, but I suppose Lucas can do whatever he wants. I mean, who gives a damn what the fans think and what has already been established before? Let's just kill that particular storyline and do my own thing, and I don't care what anyone says! With the original voice still in the original trilogy, at least there was a way of incorporating both Lucas and the Expanded Universe's storylines, but no, he had to do his own thing! I'll finish TESB and start ROTJ later today, so expect some more of my less than happy reviews/rants (I heard they changed the old Obi-Wan at the end of ROTJ with Ewan McGregor's Obi-Wan....). By the way, feel free to post what you think of the DVDs here. It'll be fun to see what other people think concerning the new, DVD-exclusive changes.

I've heard that "cracking" your back realigns your spine...