Gank

Ok guys I'm posting the 2 shiplists in the private forums for a bit of discussion there and we'll get them to you soon. The ships I've put there were chosen for there appearance in the books and soon after and the economic and political situations of both sides. As for the modified versions of corvette and frigate, both were around before the battle of Endor so they're not really good choices for research. Plus the stock versions appear in the book and look 10 times better.

Jahled, for someone who readily agrees that most of what we get from the media is a load of bollox, your very quick to repeat what they say. What are Frances ulterior motives? Why are you saying shame on them for saying international law must be followed? All they are saying in regards to the Iraq issue is war is a last resort and should not happen until all other options are exhausted. Frankly I dont see what they are gaining by saying this and I would be obliged if you would tell me. As for Mubage, I suggest you look to other sources of information than your media and government. whlie I dont defend the man in any way your country has greatly exgerrated the situatio n there, possibly some hang up over Rhodesia. Take the case of the cricket match, your players dont want to go, the international cricket board says there is absolutly no danger to them, even South African Intelligence, no friend of Mugabes, says there is no danger, but still they wont go. Your government is taking things and blowing them out of proportion lately, look at Bolivia, a few riots on the streets over tax raises and your government declares it a no go area, or what about the tanks patrolling an airport to catch a man with a grenade in his luggage. Pure scaremongering. And I'm sure Mugabe does see the value of international trade, he just doesnt want to see his country ran by US and british companys, and if you knew anything about his countrys history you'd know why. You say you'd like to see the US spread democracy to Iraq? why then do you not want to see it spread in Saudi Arabia, their troops are already there. If you'd read the link above you'd see that current US plans for Iraq involve leaving the best part of Saddams regime intact and replacing him with a US military governer, not much of a democracy by any stretch of the imagination. As for the rest of the middle east, one of the best places to live at the minute is Iran, a country labelled by the US as evil. I have actually been there and my neighbour used to work there on the oil rigs before the revolution, and hes told me some pretty nasty things about the Shahs regime. Which had heavy US backing. The US isnt interested in spreading liberty and equality around the globe, at least not their government anyways, if so why did the back the Indonesian invasion of East Timor?, why do they support Israels eviction of Palestinians from there homes?, why did they welcome a recent military coup against the elected leader in Venesuala? Which failed when the army turned their guns on their own generals I might add. Why do they back governments like Burma, Saudi Arabia etc etc? They dont want to see democracy and peace about the globe, all they want is regimes which help them get rich quick. They can say whatever they want but their actions say different. And quite frankly I fail to see why someone who came to power by rigging elections would want to spread democracy. As for your last remark about pubescent girls, your just spouting the same shit they feed you on Sky news, its virgins not pubescent girls, and while they may mean the same thing in the west in Muslim cultures they certainly do not. Suggesting a thing like paedophilia to a muslim, at least any I've met, would most likely leave you in pretty bad shape if not dead, so its highly unlikely these religious fanatics are going to believe something they've been told all their lives is evil is theres to do at will. What would your reaction be if a priest told you when you get to heaven you can shag all the kids you like? Oh and Iman means Faith, I think your looking for a different word. Oh and while I agree with you about nobility, that is certainly not the way the US is going. Thjey have even said if hit with NBC weapons the WILL use a nuke. So thousands if not millions of Iraqis will die at the hands in retaliation for acts they did not commit nor ahadany say in. Hardly noble now is it. Also kinda goes against what they are saying about saving the Iraqis from Saddam

Jahled, it would seem that whether or not they support the US invasion, the opposition arent going to get a lookin anyways http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,899986,00.html 4th paragraph down. As to whether the Iraqis will surrender quickly or not, that remains to be seen. Personally I doubt very much they'd accept an American military government, none of the ethnic groups in Iraq are too keen on the US. The Shias are closer to Iran than Washington, the majority of the Sunnis support Saddam and the US have betrayed the Kurds time and time again. Not to mention the fact that the US has continually blocked the lifting of sanctions which have killed over a million. But like you say, unless Iraq gets very lucky theres not really much doubt on the outcome. And I dont see why people are bashing France, what has it done except say that war should only be used as a last resort. Nobodys saying Saddam shouldnt go, they're just saying theres no need to take half the population with him.

You would hope so. An aircraft carrier, 2 helicopter carriers and 15 other ships lost in 2 days, not very nice. It appears do have been ignored though, on the grounds that Saddam would never use those tactics. I'd be surprised if he didnt.

I read it sometimes but the arty farty stuff scares me. Bout the nearest Irish newspaper to it is An Phoblacht, go figure. (stick that in google if ya dont know what it means) http://www.idleworm.com/nws/2002/11/iraq2.shtml

I think your missing the point, hes not saying Saddams the good guy, hes saying Bush isnt either. If the US is so worried about human rights abuse and violations of UN resolutions why aren't they doing anything about Turkey, Saudi Arabia or Israel? Surely you can understand why nobody outside the US believes these are actually the reasons you want Saddam out? Besides do you honestly think the Iraqi people look upon you as their saviors given how many of them your country has killed? Even Iraqi opposition leaders in exile have said they do not want the US to invade. It may interest you to know however that a link has been found between Iraq and Al Queda http://jehat.dk/iraq.gif

Here we go sir, http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,787017,00.html http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/op-ed/vandeerlin/20021106-9999_1e6deerlin.html First two links that came up, war games were called the Millenium Challenge 2002 and they did not go well for the blues, if I was a soldier going to war in the gulf this would have me seriously worried, especially seeing how publicised it was.

Oh and concerning the E-bomb, I wouldnt get to worked up about its effectiveness, Iraq has very little electronic communications left to destroy. There were wargames ran last year by the US simulating an invasion of Iraq, dont know if you guys remember it or not, but the guy in command of the reds(iraq) used motorcycle couriers and pidgeons for communication and apparently they worked quite well. I havent time now to dig up the report I read on it but I'll try and dig it up later.

I think if the US uses a nuke in Iraq you guys are going to find yourselves way way out there, civilian centers or no.

ROFLMAO

No prob, untimely, I've taken a lot worse flak than on here for my opinions Elvis, the story we got over here was pepper gas was used to break up a fight between 2 girls and mass hysteria followed when people seen the spray. As for locking the doors from what I understand all enterences except the front were locked but undoubtably the media will be taking every rumour and embellishing it.

So do I, I wish they would help liberate the people of Burma, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia and around half the other countrys of the world as well but we all know its not going to happen. As for the ships, I'd take all that with a pinch of salt, that story originated from an english newspaper and nobody outside the media seems to think its a big deal. I found this story more worrying http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/3453128?source=Evening%20Standard

Theres also the question of who to put in his place. Not very many pro-US or UK politicians in Iraq, and the opposition partys in exile have specifically said they do not want the US to go in.

No offence taken but please note that some of the Americans who have been replying here haven't been using nice tones with me either. Certainly my comments could be worded better but so could others. Anyways well said on the rest of it, not a great fan of Dale Browns but I do agree with some of the things he says. We got a good example of what all this scaremongering and hype in the media can do though, what was probably a pretty normal occurance (if you have as many fights in nightclubs over there as we do here) resulted in mass panic and 20 dead. Not very nice.

What are you talking about, I am not trying to take any moral high ground, I am merely pointing out its pretty hypocritical of the US and UK governments to try and do so. And dont tell me to shut the fuck up, we're all entitled to our opinions and views and if you dont like mine dont read them. And wtf is my German hangup supposed to be? The only times I've mentioned Germany was when somebody compared Saddam to Hitler and when Dinochick pulled the we saved your asses shit. How the fuck did you figure I have a hangup over Germany from that and what the fuck has where German industry invests its money got to do with anything? Other than that you both make some very good points but its probably best to lay this one to bed.

Actually Dinochick I have read exactly what happened in florida on US government papers no less. And I feel totally safe in saying that the Irish high court would never have interrupted a recount in progress. Why? because if they had the people of this country would have been out on the streets. Just for the record 2 of our governments in the last 20 years have been brought down for scandals on a far smaller scale. Why? because we actually live in a democracy, and if the government does not have the peoples support it steps down. As for the kyoto treaty, please name these other countrys that didnt sign it. But as you yourself have pointed out they didnt because yours didnt so the blame does fall on the US's shoulders. AS for the war not being about oil, of course its about oil, the fact that your country doesnt need it is pure fudge. Seriously, your going to install whoever you like in Iraq, will you buy oil off them at the same price your paying independant nations now? Use your head for fucks sake, iraq is the 5th largest producer of oil in the world and hasn't been able to sell its oil for 10 years because of a US imposed blocade. All this war is is a heavily armed robbery. As for your last comments first off you never asked a question, secondly excuse me if I get offended when some yanks give big speechs on fighting terrorism when they're doing absolutely nothing to help solve the problem in my own country. There is one thing that really stands out in your answer though What in gods name makes you think you have more than us? Big headed at the very least. This is going downhill and I hope it doesnt get any worse but I'd like to remind you of one thing, you say its time to kick the asses fo all those who do not want to fight your fight, you do realise how many asses that is dont you? Because apart from your own country and the British government very very few people are on your side. I am not being anti american here, i am just trying to point this out to you and give you a few reasons why.

Dinochick I would be very glad to hear what exactly you are referring to when you say this, if you are refering to ww1 your country only got involved when it was almost over, if you are refering to WW2 which I think you are then its common knowledge nowadays that ww2 was lost for the Germans when they invaded Russia. Justfor your information Russia lost over 20 million dead during world war 2 while you own country lost a few hundred thousand. With that in mind you wont think it terribly rude if I thank the russians instead of you people would you? There is also the fact that the UK and US drew up plans to invade my country during ww2, so excuse me if I dont feel too grateful for your protection when its no secret that you were actually planning to annex my country. And if you are refering to your countrys protection of us from the communist menace then you are a gobshite if you think anybody on this side of the atlantic takes that seriously any more. As for my country being impotent, my government has no interest in dictating to other people how they should live so in that respect we are as you pointed out impotent. Do we care? no. Have we ever asked your country to back us up on anything? no. Dinochick you seem to have a very insular point of view, it would do you well to get out of the US for a wee while so you could see it from another persons perspective. I know you people like to see yourselves as the defenders of democracy and champions of the free world and all that but the reality is far far different. Please before you start giving us the sanctimoniuos shite about how you dont want to be the worlds policemen etc etc remember nobody fucking appointed you there in the first place.

Evaders while you make some good points and I am in total agreement with you that Saddam should be removed from power , that said I feel the need to make it clear to you that this is not a veiw shared by the international community 1.) Apart from the US and UK governments no other country feels it is actually necessary to remove Saddam by force. It is quite clear that the only people who believe Saddam is a threat to world peace live in the US. And to put it bluntly who the fuck gives you the right to decide what sort of government someone else lives under? 2.) The US has delibirtaly commited mass genocide, million of Iraqis have died because the US is blocking the lifting of the sanctions on Iraq. Your government knows how many iraqis are dieing as a result of these and still blocks their removal, and we arent talking about thousaands of people here we're talking about millions. So before you go accusing Saddam of Genocide remember your own government has far far more Iraqi bloood on its hands then he does. 3.) In all fairness the whole point of putting weapons inseptors into Iraq was to prevent him from doing this. Those same weapons inspectors do not believe a war against Iraq is necessary so claiming this as a reason to oust him is a complete farce. Put it this way, you are not qualified to make a judgement on Iraq where illegal weaponry is conccerned, neither am I, Hans Blix and his team are and they have specifiaclly said that Iraq is not in breach of any UN resolutions. 4.) Anti american sediment? to be quite honest thats not what its seen as over here, its ANTI WAR sediments. You may choose to view it as anti american but the reality of the situation is it doesnt mattter what country is propagating it, its seen as wrong. If russia or North Korea wer ein the same position that the US is in now you would still see the same amount of people on the streets, in fact you'd probably see a lot more. Its not the fact that saddam need removing thats in question its a case of why do you think you have the right to do it. 5.) Dont make me laugh, do you know how many UN resolutions your own country has broke? Or how many Israel has? Seriously son, before you try to claim the moral high ground do a bit of research first. There is a very large anti war movement going on these days, and while it is not Anti American at the moment it is only a matter of time before it becomes so. You do not have popular support in any country other than your own, if you had half a brain you would be asking yourselves why, instead you are accusing us of being anti american. The way your country is percieved by other peoples of the world is at an all time low, and the only people you have to blame for it is yourselves, you can say fuck the rest of us but please remember that without you allies in europe, asia and the middle east your country is in fact impotent.

But the ships couldnt see while cloaked so there use on fighters would be pretty pointless. Never did like that whole rebel assault story, felt more like star trek than star wars.

Both those guns have been labelled DL-18s by different sources. The bottom ones definitly not the same gun though, that was used by one of Jabbas boys at the sarlaac pit. Cant find any decent pics of the rebel troops one but it looks identical to ponda babas version except for the grip. But then you probably already know that as you've been to the site where I found this out Interesting site btw, looks like most sw guns are modified ww2 weapons

I never said it was alright he was only gadssing Kurds, if you'd done your homework you'd know that the kurds are not currently under Saddams control so they couldnt possibly have voted for him. Therefore the statement above saying I'll vote for him even though he gassed my family is misleading. And if your so concerned about the Kurds why arent you complaining that your government is helping the Turks kill them for the past 10 years. So you cant really use helping the Kurds as an excuse to oust Saddam as they aren't actually under his control. And spare me the they're fighting for their independence guff, your governments are right now helping to kill them. As for the Sanctions while they were originally passed by the UN security council the US is the only member (apart from the UK, who will say whatever the US wants them to say) who believes they should remain in place and is using its veto to block any proposal which involves lifting them. So it is fair to say they are US imposed as every other member wants them lifted. Your country didnt just back Iraq in the war against Iran, the CIA asassinated the democratically elected leader of Iraq way back in 1957 and helped the Ba'ath party to power. So from the moment he entered office Saddam was an american ally and continued to be one right until he invaded Kuwait. And it has never been denied that the US sold chemical and Biological weapons to Iraq, a simple search on google should provide you with enough information on both of these subjects to make your own mind up on their truthfulness. I never said I saw Saddam as a good boy, if you actually read my above post you will see I specifically stated I didn't, I just dont see your own governments as good either. I dont see them responsible for all the evils in the world however the ones I do see them responsible for I wont keep quiet about. You can try to persuade me otherwise but you cant change the facts. Anyways the point of my above post was not to defend Saddam but to get across the irony of the fact that while your are sitting here saying how evil he is for killing his people your own governments are doing the very same thing. You can see the irony in that cant you? I do think Saddam should be got rid of, just not by the means being proposed or the people proposing them. As for this not being the place, you are right in that, however I dont really see the harm in it, its not decended into a flamewar and its always good to hear somebody elses point of view, plus it makes you think. Be nice if a few more people joined in actually.

Dinochick: Bush is a politician but he is not of the same sort we get around here, if the stuff that went on over there at the last election happened here Bush would be sitting in jail. And if any of our leaders went around saying stuff like "most of our imports come from foreign countrys" they'd find themselves shown the door fairly quick. I didnt assume all Americans are like Bush either, however he is your leader and for some strange reason he has a high approval rating. So as long as he makes the decisions you people have to deal with the consequences. And America has lost an awful lot of respect worldwide since his rise to power, not just because of the Iraq issue, but on a lot of other issues like the Kyoto treaty, taxs on imports etc. This at a time when the US should be getting more suppport than ever. And as for countrys hiding behind the US, please name them, nobody is hiding behind you, nor are they refusing to fight terrorism, you people are Al-Quedas target, and other governments are putting their own people in jeopardy helping you fight them. So spare us the sanctimonious bullshit about how you are protecting us, we're making ourselves possible targets by helping you. Do you have any idea how many US Troops have passed through my country recently? 10s of thousands. You owe us, not the other way round. Try and rememeber that next time we're helping you get oil, I mean fight terrorism. Spare us the lets all fight terrorism speachs too, you dont know the first thing about it, some of us have seen the effects of it all our lives. Remember too one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter and both our countries were founded by "terrorists"

Untimely demise, Bin Ladens boys are not fighting against Democracy, the west nor do they want to kill people just because they are alive. They are fighting the US because of the things the US has done and is doing in their part of the world. Yes they want to see americans dead, but they because of your governments policies in the middle east, not because you are westerners. They do have demands, get your troops out of their countrys and stop propping up Israel, but your country isnt going to meet those. nyways nobody here is worried about a terrorist attack and I seriously doubt Al Queda is ever going to threaten us. You americans like to think your protecting the world from a great threat but the reality is your just reaping what you've sowed. Sure Bin ladin would like to see the whole world united under the wahabbi islam banner but I think even the most deranged terrorist knows this isnt going to happen in a million years. As for the US being defeated, we both know its not going to happen, your pretty safe over there behind your oceans, if the unlikely does happen and the US is beat out of the middle east, ask yourself, do you really care? Given the fact that the amount of oil your country uses from that region is minimal then the only real consequences are a loss of face and Israels possible defeat. But Israel has dug its own grave and cant possibly continue its existence at the rate its going, even with American support. Sharon is inflicting serious hurts on the Palestinian people and taking from my own countrys history these take a long time to heal. As for my own country theres very few people here would describe either side in the conflict as rational, but your right in saying they arent the same thing. But violence begets violence and going into Iraq at the present moment in time is not going to make things better. No offence but comparing Saddam or Bin Laden to Hitler is not particularly intelligent, neither have either popular support nor the economic base Germany had at his time. Bin laden hides in a cave ffs and saddam power was destroyed 10 years ago and unlike Germany hes been unable to rebuild it. There was no embargo on Germany in the 1930s neither were there weapons inspectors, in fact most governments knew hitler was rearming and did nothing. And nobody is trying to appease either of these men either and I dont know where you get the idea anybody is. To be quite frank I see more resemblance between Bush and Hitler and so do a lot of people outside the US. We even call Blair Mussolini down my local. As for what I would do if I was the leader, I'd try to keep my people from getting killed, not put them at greater risk. Now I dont support Saddam and Bin Laden, I think both should be taken out the back and shot with minimum of fuss, nor am I a pacifist, but going into Iraq without the support or blessing of the rest of the UN will only destabilise that region further and a lot of innocent people will die for no good reason.

You may believe me to be cynical but I have serious doubts about the effectiveness in using tanks to defend an airport from a terrorist attack. A couple of mortars in the back of a transit (IRA in 1991) is enough to cause serious damage and is virtually unstoppable. Also remember Tony Blair just took a major hit to his attempts to start a war when it was revealed that an Intelligence report detailing how saddam was trying to decieve arms inspectors was copied word for word, spelling mistakes and all from a report a student wrote 12 years ago. As for Bush, if you think that guy wouldnt lie to you to get you to back him then your either very niave or very stupid. Saying that you guys are pissing a lot of people off so I would think the danger of a terrorist attack over there is far greater than the UK. Just for the record I live on the border between the north and south of Ireland and I've been through my fair share of bomb scares etc, which thankfully have stopped for the past while, however I'd like to point out that they didnt stop because enough people were arrested or killled. The more countrys you invade and people you kill, the more terrorists you're going to make. Until such a time as your governments address the cause of the terrorism your just going to have to live with these scares I'm afraid.

Just FYI Saddam never gassed anybody who could be considered his own people, hes gassed Kurds in the north and Iranians in the east. The US cant really say much about him gassing Kurds as they're helping the Turks to slaughter the same people right now, and they were actually backing him in the war on Iran. Not to mention the fact that the US and UK were the main suppliers of NBC weapons to Iraq. Remember too that US imposed sanctions are responsible for the deaths of half a million Iraqi children alone. Which is worse, gassing people or starving them to death? As for Saddam being popular most experts believe this to be true, and given the 2 main oppositions equal dislike of the US whoever is installed in Saddams place is going to have his work cut out. For the record I'm not pro-Saddam, however I find it hypocritical that your saying what a bad boy he is when your own governments are responsible for the deaths of millions of Iraqis. I dont see anyone calling Bush snr, jnr, Clinton, Blair or Major to stand trial for warcrimes.