Katanna Fleet (Dark Force)

[SOCL]

Has anyone other than myself actually ever attempted to build the ~200 Dreadnaught Katanna fleet? I have actually done it before and it is GREAT! Imagine 200 Dreadnaughts suddenly appearing in orbit over your system and take out your fleet within seconds, then bomb the hell out of your planet! foaming at mouth . . .

 

It's great to be an Imperial.

[SOCL]

It's not that Qui-Gon Jinn was a bad character, but he seemed almost pointless. He's there, discovers Anakin, and then dies. Plus, he really didn't have that Ben Kenobi Jedi Master quality, but more of a: "Oh, look at me, I'm a Jedi". He just didn't strike me as the Jedi Master type.

[wormie]

You are right, he was kinda reckless for a Jedi Master. I was suprised that he was even promoted to that rank. Strong in the Force he must have been hmmmm?

[SOCL]

Exactly. And Obi-Wan even mentioned the Council's apparent dislike of Jinn.

[Jahled]

Just a quicky point on Darth Maul, he did after all embody the essence of the Dark Side; rage, anger, and hate. Maybe his demise at the end of EpI was no accident by George Lucas. Perhaps he was demonstrating 'he that burns brightest, burns fastest.' Look how immediate Darth Maul lept into combat, perhaps George was wanting to show that the easy path to power is also untimately the shortest....

 

just a thought....

[Trejiuvanat]

WE might get that from an interpretation of ep i, but i didn't like him.

swift anger and hatred, but there is always a draker and longer hatred that reamins hidden (sidious).

 

From the Anti-Qui-Gon Brigade to the Ep-I interpretation group.

[SOCL]

Just a quicky point on Darth Maul, he did after all embody the essence of the Dark Side; rage, anger, and hate. Maybe his demise at the end of EpI was no accident by George Lucas. Perhaps he was demonstrating 'he that burns brightest, burns fastest.' Look how immediate Darth Maul lept into combat, perhaps George was wanting to show that the easy path to power is also untimately the shortest....

 

just a thought....

Good point, Jahled (never thought I'd say that . . . ).

[Guest Scathane]

It's not that Qui-Gon Jinn was a bad character, but he seemed almost pointless. He's there, discovers Anakin, and then dies. Plus, he really didn't have that Ben Kenobi Jedi Master quality, but more of a: "Oh, look at me, I'm a Jedi". He just didn't strike me as the Jedi Master type.

You are right, he was kinda reckless for a Jedi Master. I was suprised that he was even promoted to that rank. Strong in the Force he must have been hmmmm?

 

Yup! This definitely is the Charge of the Anti-Qui-Gon Brigade!!! What's the trouble for you guys, when you discover that He's there, discovers Anakin, and then dies???!!! I could well say the same of Darth Maul: He's there, kills Qui-Gon, and then dies... But do I here anyone screaming about the shallowness of Dart Maul? Of course not, in fact, we all think that he should have lasted a few movies more, don't we?

 

Is this really because we know so much more about him or that he's a deeper character than Qui-Gon? No, it's because he's got a dual lightsaber and mysterious tattoos. In other words: he's cool... It's not that I don't agree on darth Maul being cool, but I think you could cut Qui-Gon some slack. Consider the following:

 

A venerable if maverick Jedi Master, Qui-Gon Jinn is a student of the living Force. Unlike other Jedi Masters, who often lose themself in the meditation of the unifying Force, Qui-Gon Jinn lived for the moment, espousing a philosophy of "feel, don't think -- use your instincts." Were it not for Qui-Gon's unruly views, he would have undoubtedly been on the Jedi Council.

 

full article: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/quigonjinn/index.html

 

This definitely spells out Qui-Gon as a character with depth... It's just that this depth wasn't uncovered in Ep I. Personally, I think that Qui-Gon could've lasted a few more movies as well.... His attitude towards the Force and the Jedi Council are more inetersting than that of the little-goody-two-shoes Jedi Council Members!!!

 

Had to get that out

[Guest Scathane]

Just a quicky point on Darth Maul, he did after all embody the essence of the Dark Side; rage, anger, and hate. Maybe his demise at the end of EpI was no accident by George Lucas. Perhaps he was demonstrating 'he that burns brightest, burns fastest.' Look how immediate Darth Maul lept into combat, perhaps George was wanting to show that the easy path to power is also untimately the shortest....

 

just a thought....

I think you've got a good point...

[Trejiuvanat]

There was an alternative for GL to incorporate this depth of Qui-GOn in the prequels. Shpaing Obi-wan in this model of a student of the living force, etc.

[Guest Scathane]

See, there ya go!

[Trejiuvanat]

But stil i like my own version more than GL's

[SOCL]

Agreed, Qui-Gon had the whole revolution feel about him, but I prefer the Ben Kenobi/Yoda mystical way of doing things. I'm also glad Obi-Wan didn't turn out like Qui-Gon and wanted to follow the words of the Council rather than run on a tangent. You know what I mean? In Phantom, Obi-Wan seemed to coward a tad when speaking of the Council and wanting to please them, unlike the unruly Jinn.

 

And what's with the whole Jedi having a hyphenated name thing? Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon. What the hell?

[Guest Scathane]

Agreed, Qui-Gon had the whole revolution feel about him, but I prefer the Ben Kenobi/Yoda mystical way of doing things.

Tell me in which exact way Obi-Wan is mystical (in episodes I & II)???

 

I'm also glad Obi-Wan didn't turn out like Qui-Gon and wanted to follow the words of the Council rather than run on a tangent. You know what I mean? In Phantom, Obi-Wan seemed to coward a tad when speaking of the Council and wanting to please them, unlike the unruly Jinn.

No, I don't know what you mean. Qui-Gon wasn't unruly, at least not in term outside those of the Jedi Council. kenobi was a obedient fool who later blamed himself for mistakes that were in fact largely due to the jedi Council. That's just what makes Qui-Gon interesting and Kenobi dweeby. It's probably what makes Jinn a Jedi Master and Kenobi a Jedi Knight.

 

And what's with the whole Jedi having a hyphenated name thing? Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon. What the hell?

What on Pzob are you talking about dude???

 

1. Aayla Secura
2. Adi Gallia
3. Anakin Skywalker
4. Barriss Offee
5. Bastila Shan
6. Bultar Swan
7. Coleman Trebor
8. Count Dooku
9. Depa Billaba
10. Eeth Koth
11. Kit Fisto
12. Luke Skywalker
13. Luminara Unduli
14. Mace Windu
15. Plo Koon
16. Saessee Tiin
17. Stass Allie
18. Yarael Poof
19. Yaddle
20. Yoda

 

As opposed to:

1. Mara-Jade Skywalker
2. Obi-Wan Kenobi
3. Pablo-Jill
4. Qui-Gon Jinn

[AndyHalfelf]

isn't Mara Jade spelled in 2 words and not Mara-Jade?

[Guest Scathane]

isn't Mara Jade spelled in 2 words and not Mara-Jade?

Well, there you go!

 

1. Aayla Secura
2. Adi Gallia
3. Anakin Skywalker
4. Barriss Offee
5. Bastila Shan
6. Bultar Swan
7. Coleman Trebor
8. Count Dooku
9. Depa Billaba
10. Eeth Koth
11. Kit Fisto
12. Luke Skywalker
13. Luminara Unduli
14. Mace Windu
15. Mara-Jade Skywalker
16. Plo Koon
17. Saessee Tiin
18. Stass Allie
19. Yarael Poof
20. Yaddle
21. Yoda
 
 
As opposed to:
 
1. Obi-Wan Kenobi
2. Pablo-Jill
3. Qui-Gon Jinn

 

So, what on earth are you talking about, SOCL???

[SOCL]

About the name thing. I meant it as an apparent characteristic at the start of the . . . of never mind.

 

I never claimed Obi-Wan Kenobi was mystical in either episode I or II. If you had taken note of my name usage ("Ben") then you would have noticed that I was talking specifically about the Obi-Wan we saw in A New Hope and onward through to Heir to the Empire.

 

Perhaps unruly was the wrong adjective to use for Qui-Gon (it was actually meant more sardonically than anyway else).

 

Just chill, Scath, perhaps my statements were a tad unfounded.

 

 

 

Excellent, I am a Lieutenant Commander.

Edited April 12, 2003 by SOCL

[Guest Scathane]

I am chilling!

[SOCL]

But you do have to admit, Scath, that as far as Jedi Masters go, Qui-Gon was quite unusual.

 

You mentioned Obi-Wan being a mere Jedi Knight, but was he not referred to as "Master Jedi" in Attack of the Clones. Perhaps that is simply verbal address for for a master of a Jedi (a Jedi with an apprentice). But if so, then was he not a Jedi Master at least by the time of A New Hope?

[Guest Scathane]

But you do have to admit, Scath, that as far as Jedi Masters go, Qui-Gon was quite unusual.

Yes, indeed he was.

 

You mentioned Obi-Wan being a mere Jedi Knight, but was he not referred to as "Master Jedi" in Attack of the Clones. Perhaps that is simply verbal address for for a master of a Jedi (a Jedi with an apprentice). But if so, then was he not a Jedi Master at least by the time of A New Hope?

No, the reference M

[Guest Scathane]

But you do have to admit, Scath, that as far as Jedi Masters go, Qui-Gon was quite unusual.

 

You mentioned Obi-Wan being a mere Jedi Knight, but was he not referred to as "Master Jedi" in Attack of the Clones. Perhaps that is simply verbal address for for a master of a Jedi (a Jedi with an apprentice). But if so, then was he not a Jedi Master at least by the time of A New Hope?

[SOCL]

You mentioned Obi-Wan being a mere Jedi Knight, but was he not referred to as "Master Jedi" in Attack of the Clones. Perhaps that is simply verbal address for for a master of a Jedi (a Jedi with an apprentice). But if so, then was he not a Jedi Master at least by the time of A New Hope?

No, the reference M

Well . . . I think when you say Padawan being referred to as "Master Jedi", I believe you're referring to when Anakin was called "Master Jedi" by one of the politicians on Naboo. That was correct, though, because you'll remember Padme correcting the person. It's a little hard to believe that even people outside the circle of Jedi don't know the difference between a Jedi Master and a Padawan and it is safe to assume that was an isolated incident since the politician probably assumed that because Anakin was protecting a Senator he was a Jedi Master or at least a Knight (after all, who would put a mere Padawan in charge of gaurding such an important person?).

 

By the way, why does it seem like Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are the only ones with Padawans following them around as apprentices? I mean, granted, we did see Yoda surrounded by dozens of Padawans, but being a Padawan does not make them an apprentice (apprentice=Padawan, but Padawan does not necessarily equal apprentice). I'm merely pointing out that was have yet to see many more Jedis with apprentices (if any others at all).

 

Lastly, to have an apprentice, must one be a Jedi Master or can one be just a Jedi Knight? (that's assuming the system of Jedi status is: Padawan, Knight, Master)

[Guest Scathane]

Well . . . I think when you say Padawan being referred to as "Master Jedi", I believe you're referring to when Anakin was called "Master Jedi" by one of the politicians on Naboo. That was correct, though, because you'll remember Padme correcting the person.

SOCL, the point if Padmé correcting in that particular sitiation only served to add to Anakin's unease with the situation of going off the Jedi track. In EpII, we see Anakin as a Padawan who feels very awkward with the rigid rules of the Jedi. Thisparticular istance adds to that AND to the fact that Padmé says she still regards him as a little boy.

 

It's a little hard to believe that even people outside the circle of Jedi don't know the difference between a Jedi Master and a Padawan...

No, it's not! The Jedi Council and Order being what they are, it's harder to imagine that outsiders to not know about the ranks within the order. The only thing they might have known (but I'm speculating here) is that Padawans tend to have these little braids in their hair.

 

... and it is safe to assume that was an isolated incident since the politician probably assumed that because Anakin was protecting a Senator he was a Jedi Master or at least a Knight (after all, who would put a mere Padawan in charge of gaurding such an important person?).

No it's not safe to assume that at all! A mere Padawan is still capable of a whole lot more than most beings who aren't able to use the force. Even if we suppose that people in the SW universe would have known Padawans by their hair braids, they probabaly wouldn't have known what stage the Padawan was in (considering the fact that kenobi had that braid and was still called Padawan just before he became Jedi Knight).

 

By the way, why does it seem like Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are the only ones with Padawans following them around as apprentices? I mean, granted, we did see Yoda surrounded by dozens of Padawans, but being a Padawan does not make them an apprentice (apprentice=Padawan, but Padawan does not necessarily equal apprentice). I'm merely pointing out that was have yet to see many more Jedis with apprentices (if any others at all).

Is that so? Padawan does not necessarily equal apprentice? By the way, Barriss Offee appeared as the Padawan to Luminara Unduli.

 

Lastly, to have an apprentice, must one be a Jedi Master or can one be just a Jedi Knight? (that's assuming the system of Jedi status is: Padawan, Knight, Master)

Good question... Kenobi was never a Jedi Master, if you ask me...

[SOCL]

SOCL, the point if Padmé correcting in that particular sitiation only served to add to Anakin's unease with the situation of going off the Jedi track. In EpII, we see Anakin as a Padawan who feels very awkward with the rigid rules of the Jedi. Thisparticular istance adds to that AND to the fact that Padmé says she still regards him as a little boy.

Yes, quite true it does at to those points and to the frustration that Anakin has. But seeing past that, I think it helps prove that not all Jedi are called "Master Jedi" but it was a mistake made by that particular politician. I realize the reason that scene was there, but it proves a seperate point (yes, it can do that) that not all Jedi should be referred to as "Master Jedi".

 

No, it's not! The Jedi Council and Order being what they are, it's harder to imagine that outsiders to not know about the ranks within the order. The only thing they might have known (but I'm speculating here) is that Padawans tend to have these little braids in their hair.

If you read in the Thrawn series (I believe it was Dark Force Rising, but it may have been Heir to the Empire) people know what a Jedi is clearly (and not just because of the lightsaber). I'm sure people can tell the difference and most know the difference between a Padawan and a Jedi Knight/Master.

 

No it's not safe to assume that at all! A mere Padawan is still capable of a whole lot more than most beings who aren't able to use the force. Even if we suppose that people in the SW universe would have known Padawans by their hair braids, they probabaly wouldn't have known what stage the Padawan was in (considering the fact that kenobi had that braid and was still called Padawan just before he became Jedi Knight).

Granted, a Padawan may be capable of powers greater than that of a normal being, but that has nothing to do with the point. If one were to be approached about having an apprentice (no matter what level of training or powers) in charge of their security, you would probably freak about it. This happens all the time. Foreign politicians have military Special Forces guard them while out on diplomacy missions, but the second someone utters putting regular soldiers or police in charge of protecting that person (or even if someone said a Special Forces trainee), that politician and everyone else close to them freaks. But why, a regular soldier or a regular police officer have more training than a normal person? Well, simply put: people get spoiled and the word "regular" or "trainee" (or "Padawan" or "apprentice" in this case) makes them panic. It's hard to explain, but it's the truth. Even though a Padawan can do a better job at security than, say, a regular security officer, people would prefer a regular security officer (or a Jedi Knight or Master) than have an apprentice. It's just nature.

 

Is that so? Padawan does not necessarily equal apprentice?

Yes, one can be a Padawan and not yet be an apprentice. A Padawan is undergoing training and is soon after put as an apprentice to learn from someone else.

 

By the way, Barriss Offee appeared as the Padawan to Luminara Unduli.

These people are in the movies? Well, then again I have no clue who these people are.

 

Kenobi was never a Jedi Master, if you ask me...

Man, what's your bitterness with Ben?

[Guest Scathane]

Yes, quite true it does at to those points and to the frustration that Anakin has. But seeing past that, I think it helps prove that not all Jedi are called "Master Jedi" but it was a mistake made by that particular politician. I realize the reason that scene was there, but it proves a seperate point (yes, it can do that) that not all Jedi should be referred to as "Master Jedi".

Point taken. You're right: they should have realised that Anakin was a Padawan. If Master had been a regular term of address for any Jedi, then Padmé's remark would have been inappropritae and pointless. It wasn't.

 

If you read in the Thrawn series (I believe it was Dark Force Rising, but it may have been Heir to the Empire) people know what a Jedi is clearly (and not just because of the lightsaber). I'm sure people can tell the difference and most know the difference between a Padawan and a Jedi Knight/Master.

As above.

 

Granted, a Padawan may be capable of powers greater than that of a normal being, but that has nothing to do with the point. If one were to be approached about having an apprentice (no matter what level of training or powers) in charge of their security, you would probably freak about it. This happens all the time. Foreign politicians have military Special Forces guard them while out on diplomacy missions, but the second someone utters putting regular soldiers or police in charge of protecting that person (or even if someone said a Special Forces trainee), that politician and everyone else close to them freaks. But why, a regular soldier or a regular police officer have more training than a normal person? Well, simply put: people get spoiled and the word "regular" or "trainee" (or "Padawan" or "apprentice" in this case) makes them panic. It's hard to explain, but it's the truth. Even though a Padawan can do a better job at security than, say, a regular security officer, people would prefer a regular security officer (or a Jedi Knight or Master) than have an apprentice. It's just nature.

On this point, I still don't quite agree. The point you're making is valid, but it's off the mark. Reason what would happen if an official wouldn't be accompanied by a bishop but by a pastor. That would be something else: nobody would call the lesser priest a pupil.... Following you point above that people know what Jedi are, it's safe to assume that they also know that Jedi training starts at an early age... Looking at Anakin they might have realised that he was a Padawan, but considering his age, they must have assumed that he was close to being a Jedi Knight or at least well on the way..... They might have called him Master out of politeness, but they most certainly would not have mistaken him for one (your own logic defines this)...

 

Yes, one can be a Padawan and not yet be an apprentice. A Padawan is undergoing training and is soon after put as an apprentice to learn from someone else.

Interesting, I didn't know that.

 

These people are in the movies? Well, then again I have no clue who these people are.

Come on, SOCL! I can't believe this!

http://starwars.com/databank/character/luminaraunduli/index.html

http://starwars.com/databank/character/barrissoffee/index.html

 

Man, what's your bitterness with Ben?

I'm not bitter with regard to Kenobi. If I'd be bitter, it would be with the Jedi Council. But, as a matter of fact, I'm not bitter at all. Interesting though:

 

Why was Obi-Wan always referred to as 'Master Kenobi' in Episode II? Doesn't he have only Jedi Knight status?

The term "Master" is occasionally used as an honorific to a teaching Knight -- especially by non-Jedi -- even if he has not yet achieved the status of Jedi Master. Obi-Wan Kenobi never achieves the formal rank of Jedi Master.

http://starwars.com/community/askjc/jocasta/askjc20020606.html

[Trejiuvanat]

This leads me to a question I had for a long while.

In I, Jedi Nejaa Halcyon, Corran Horn's grandfather, is referred to as a Master.

Is he a Master like Obi-Wan or a Master like Yoda?

Or is this some weird thing about the COrellian Jedi tradition.