Creationist or Evolutionist?

[DarthTofu]

Just wondering here, what are everyone's thoughts on the matter? Should the class rooms be teaching evolution, intelligent design, both, or just skipping the whole concept all together? I personally think evolution should be taught. There is evidence to support its existence more so than anything, and it doesn't get in the way of any religious beliefs in my opinion. God creates the Earth. God creates evolution to make sure his Earth stays interesting. That's my view on the matter, though I'm an atheist so that might screw with my views on what can be accepted and what can't. Anyway, what are everyone else's thoughts on the matter?

[Defender_16]

I am undecided. More accurately divided internally by this issue.

 

Though I have grown up with a sicentific approach to the world I am not... uh... what's the word.

 

Intelligent design is a relavent alternative theory to Darwin's theory of evolution. They both deserve to be looked into. It's just that the establishment has been banging everyone over the head with one view for neigh-on a century now.

 

Main Entry: the·o·ry

Pronunciation: 'thE-&-rE, 'thi(-&)r-E

Function: noun

Inflected Form: plural -ries

1 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art

2 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain natural phenomena —see ATOMIC THEORY, CELL THEORY, GERM THEORY

3 : a working hypothesis that is considered probable based on experimental evidence or factual or conceptual analysis and is accepted as a basis for experimentation —the·o·ret·i·cal /"thE-&-'ret-i-k&l, "thi(&)r-'et-/ also the·o·ret·ic /-ik/ adjective —the·o·ret·i·cal·ly /-i-k(&-)lE/ adverb

 

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

 

Darwin came up with a theory. He didn't know for certain that this was correct but it made the best sence with what he had studdied at the time. This was a very devout religious man that came up with this stuff. He was ridiculed for the rest of his life for trying to understand something we're still struggling with.

 

Yes we keep finding new remains of our ancient ancestors, but lately the more we find, the larger the gap we find between Humans and our nearest relatives. It used to be widely accepted (Before DNA mapping) that humans evolved from Neandertal. Lately it's been proven that they're very different species.

 

The major missing links between humanity and other species on Earth is turning into a barricade.

 

No one knows 100% without a doubt for certain, that any of these theories are correct anymore. I don't think we'll know within my lifetime.

 

I don't know what to believe. (Sorry to rant.)

[dinochick]

...

 

Intelligent design is a relavent alternative theory to Darwin's theory of evolution. ...

 

Sorry, but your wrong (IMHO)...but then again this is maybe not the best time for me to ranting on and gettingtechnical and up on my soap box. So I will keep my lid shut.

 

But just before you go off assuming that since I am a paleontologist I must there for believe in evolution and no God...remember this. I was raised in a VERY christian family (my dad was a Southern Baptist preacher for the first 15 years of my life, and now is a Methodist preacher). I do believe in God. I do believe in Evolution. I do not believe in ID.

[Defender_16]

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I should have skipped all of that stuff and gone straight to;

 

Tofu you idiot! Don't make up threads like this that will obviously lead to conflicts.

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

First let me say that I voted both.

 

Second I have to state that I am Christian. In no way does that mean that I think we should limit what is taught in school. While I can't stand the ACLU, that doesn't mean that I like listening to them complain. If we say that we're only going to teach evolution the ACLU will have a conniption fit. To put it simply I don't want to listen to them bitch about it.

 

Now to continue my efforts to not come across as a hot-headed crazy, I will stop there, BEFORE I start getting myself worked up.

[budious]

I believe evolution is intelligent design... god like any programmer made some mistakes and slowly released patches over the milleniums... thus man 1.0 walked the earth.

 

If god is a universal diety and everyone has is in his form... does that mean all intelligent aliens are humaniod. The probability exist in a universe as large as such that life has evolved on other planets... with some probability of foreign intelligent beings... so thus does this lend some creditability to sci-fi genres that make humans the defacto race on every planet.

 

As for school, Evolution is based in fact and should be taught in Science Education Core Curriculum. Intelligent Design should be taught along side such in a philosophy or world religions class. The two are not interchangeable but both should be examined.

[dinochick]

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I should have skipped all of that stuff and gone straight to;

 

Tofu you idiot! Don't make up threads like this that will obviously lead to conflicts.

 

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I should have skipped all of that stuff and gone straight to;

 

Tofu you idiot! Don't make up threads like this that will obviously lead to conflicts.

 

I must agree with you D16...you posted that one while I was working on my previous post for this thread as well as looking at the PM you sent me and IMing w/ friends. Excellent post.

[Krytos]

I voted for Evolution. Whilst the theory can be challenged, and the current theory of human evolution is changed (relatively) often when new discoveries are made, that doesn't change the fact that the basis of the theory is still sound. We know the evolution occurs for a fact, and there's strong proof and links of evolution in history between other species (it's been a while, so I dont recal the names - something like cromagnum man ).

I think, if you learn science this is something you should be taught about (particularly if you are learning biology or simular). Maybe it should be made more obvious that it's an evolving theory to those being taught it so they know the basics, as well as what is currently thought and finally that it is possible to change. I guess in a sense then, I think it should be compulsory.

And like DC, I believe in a God - and I'm a Roman Catholic . . . a VERY loose RC though, as in I don't read the bible, I dont go to church . . . in fact, the only thing that would still qualify me as a RC is believing in the Holy Trinity and going to church for Christmas and Easter

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I see no reason to believe in ID, however, I recognize that there is a large gap in Evolution. We've tested it and know that birds will evolve into a new species with selective breedings (after all, all evolution is is adaption on a huge scale), but it fails, at least for now, to definitively explain the jump to man from sub-man.

 

That being said, there is no scientific proof that ID exists. In fact, believing in ID fails to solve the problem, logically. "Some higher force" created life. Thats fine. Where did the higher force come from? If it was a physical (able to be perceived in the physical world. Wind is physical.) force in the universe, where did it come from, as it has to have had an origin. If its a "spiritual" being who can supposedly defy the laws of the universe, then it ceases to be a topic of science, as those beings' existance are never proved and anything they do can be chalked up to their magical powers.

 

In truth, ID goes against everything that we've ever learned about science. We learn there is a natural, physical cause for everything. In order for a ball to move, something physical must strike it. Actions cause reactions and only physical things are causal. To say that some magical being can do whatever it wants to because its magical undermines all that. Not that this couldn't be true. There COULD be a magical being--but someone's got to have pretty darned good proof that there is one.

 

I believe that we may find some other physical reason why man evolved into its current state. I believe that though evolution seems correct, it might be proven wrong. However, if evolution is wrong, it doesn't mean that ID is right. It just means that they're both wrong.

[Guest Scathane]

Sorry, but your wrong (IMHO)...but then again this is maybe not the best time for me to ranting on and gettingtechnical and up on my soap box. So I will keep my lid shut.

You're not getting away that easy, dino... You're a scientist, you just can't plain leave it at that... you simply couldn't resist the temptation...

 

I do believe in God. I do believe in Evolution.

You're saying your opinions on both are based on beliefs?

[Mad78]

I believe in Evolution. I just have so much difficulty in believing that some higher being just created life from one day to another. And i find the theory of evolution so much more plausible.

[Lord_La_forge]

I voted for ID, though I don't have a clue what that is

[Darth_Rob]

It's funny, isn't it? How can somebody say, "hey, I'm religious", and yet believe that evolution occured. Did God create basic life and then sit back and watch it evolve over billions of years to where it is today? Not according to various religious works. So I have trouble saying exactly that about myself. It's nice to feel that God created us himself, and that we are all the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, but at the same time, it just doesn't make sense. I guess what I'm getting at is that regardless of my uncertain religious views, I would still want my children to learn about evolution. They can learn about God and religion and everything in Sunday school, but in the U.S. there is a division of Church and State, and it should remain that way.

[DarthTofu]

I'm with Rob... Sort of had a very interesting night the other night (Not like that, you perve)... I was sort of thinking along the lines of religion and all that and, seeing as I was originally Christian before Atheist I was doing one of my random logic theories and thinking 'I know I don't believe in hell, but it still sounds like a prett bad place to go' I was kind of half-praying, saying that if there was a god and he could send me some solid proof to make me know that I deffinately had been created by him... Then I kind of came to a conclusion- I had proof, and had had it for a very loong time in the form of a person that I liked... Seriously, I think I might have returned to believeing, now. I actually kept my hand on my heart for the words 'under god' in the pledge for the first time in over two years...

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I dont see how the existance of a person you like is conclusive evidence of a being who defies all physical laws. People liking someone else is a natural occurance caused by attraction. In fact, our ability to feel those emotions helps us keep attached to other people for the purpose of child rearing (although not everyone acts on that) and is more of a point in the evolution category than in the ID.

 

Sounds to me like you weren't sure about being atheist out of a fear of Hell, and found a way to justify a belief in God. Consider this--even if a higher being DID exist, it could be multiple beings a la Hinduism or any number of other religious deities. Either way, it should take more than a fuzzy feeling to refute all the evidence about the physical world that we have.

[dinochick]

Sorry, but your wrong (IMHO)...but then again this is maybe not the best time for me to ranting on and gettingtechnical and up on my soap box. So I will keep my lid shut.

You're not getting away that easy, dino... You're a scientist, you just can't plain leave it at that... you simply couldn't resist the temptation...

 

Sorry, I guess I crossed into the dark side for a moment

 

I do believe in God. I do believe in Evolution.

You're saying your opinions on both are based on beliefs?

 

No, let me rephrase that. I believe in God. I see proof of Evolution. I can see that, I can touch it, I can understand it. I can not explain my beliefe in God, I just believe. I guess I just think of the two as totaly seperate things.

[Mad78]

A simple way to combine the two is to be a modernist.

[DarthTofu]

I dont see how the existance of a person you like is conclusive evidence of a being who defies all physical laws. People liking someone else is a natural occurance caused by attraction. In fact, our ability to feel those emotions helps us keep attached to other people for the purpose of child rearing (although not everyone acts on that) and is more of a point in the evolution category than in the ID.

 

Sounds to me like you weren't sure about being atheist out of a fear of Hell, and found a way to justify a belief in God. Consider this--even if a higher being DID exist, it could be multiple beings a la Hinduism or any number of other religious deities. Either way, it should take more than a fuzzy feeling to refute all the evidence about the physical world that we have.

 

Meh, I see your point... I sort of am reverting back to my old ways as old thoughts return... There seems to be something about being up at 11:00 PM that messes with your head... Plus I have this whole wierd sem-telepathic ability that sort of came about when I started wandering about religion more... Whenever someone else is thinking about a subject or topic it pops into my head... Wierd, eh? I read something about that by means of an explanation other than telepathy, but still, its ridiculously accurate.

[budious]

There seems to be something about being up at 11:00 PM that messes with your head... Plus I have this whole wierd sem-telepathic ability that sort of came about when I started wandering about religion more...

 

And I thought it was just me... something about the time my head hits the pillow and I'm semi-dreary that my conscious thoughts spill over into a dream like halucination... I think it's all the caffeine, I really got to lay off the Red Bulls and vodka...

 

On the whole eternity in heaven or hell bit - I don't consider myself bad enough to wind up in hell, but if that's god decision's... so be it ; on the flipside I would be under stress to think I have to spend the rest of eternity minding my behavior in heaven... I'm no mother teresa. Stick me somewhere in between, preferable another planetary body besides earth...

 

Then the time thing... why do we assume eternity in a sense of linear time... its only basically a 4th dimension of our physical being. A cube has 3 planes and point exist at some moment of time within it, but move forwards or back (through time) and the same point doesn't exist (singular instance) within the confines of the cube. Simply put if we "ascend" (borrowing from Stargate...) does the concept of time really have descernable meaning?

Edited January 27, 2006 by budious

[Mad78]

Very interessting point bud. I guess you have to wait for your final hour to come to know that.

 

BTW i love the new avatar Tofu

[Guest Scathane]

I dont see how the existance of a person you like is conclusive evidence of a being who defies all physical laws. People liking someone else is a natural occurance caused by attraction. In fact, our ability to feel those emotions helps us keep attached to other people for the purpose of child rearing (although not everyone acts on that) and is more of a point in the evolution category than in the ID.

Although I agree that some emotions serve such purposes, I think it's more complex than that. It is sometimes unclear to what particular purpose some emotions arise, now isn't it? For instance, I could acknowledge that - say - being in love is some form, part, manifestation or result of mating behaviour. But that doesn't explain why I'm attracted to one girl, yet aren't to the other... It doesn't explain how being in love can occur between two beings of the same sex... It doesn't explain why you feel butterflies in your stomach... For some, it doesn't explain why they feel it was destined to be...

 

Either way, it should take more than a fuzzy feeling to refute all the evidence about the physical world that we have.

No, either way it often doesn't take more than that. A fuzzy feeling like being in love can lead to just that for a lot of people. I'm not saying it should per sé, but I think you do have to acknowledge that feelings like emotion, passion and sexuality have been, are and will be key drivers to a lot of behavious. It's good to have an emotionless science to tackle the facts and analysis but then, it doesn't exactly explain everything, does it? And it is especially lagging behind in the field of adequately explaining how exactly it came to be that many flowers have bright colors when it happens to be that birds and bees have color vision... or that some flowers have patterns only visible in the ultraviolet range, which bees can detect...

 

In fact, I think we can safely assume that humans themselves have but a faint concept of what it is they themselves are creating in attempts at designing AI, for instance. Moreover, we should realize that roughly two thirds of the global human population believes in some form hof higher being or entity...

 

 

No, let me rephrase that. I believe in God. I see proof of Evolution. I can see that, I can touch it, I can understand it. I can not explain my beliefe in God, I just believe. I guess I just think of the two as totaly seperate things.

I know, I know... It's nice to see you fall for this one as well...

 

 

Then the time thing... why do we assume eternity in a sense of linear time... its only basically a 4th dimension of our physical being. A cube has 3 planes and point exist at some moment of time within it, but move forwards or back and the same point doesn't exist within the confines of the cube.

Er... huh?

[Mad78]

Love the sound effect.

The thing with talking about dimensions is that we are only really capable of defining a dimensions under ours. We can understnd what a 1 or 2 dimension world would look like but can't think what a 4 dimension one would look like.

[Jahled]

Whilst I must confess to not really having an opinion on this subject, if any of you have access to British television, there is an hour long documentary on this subject tonight at 21:00 hours GMT on BBC2, with contribution from Sir David Attenborough no less. It's called 'Horizon'.

[DarthTofu]

Hey, there's another Stargate fan on the forums! Sweet! I guess that you have some stuff worth arguing over in your post, Scath, but all of those could be explained via the evolutionary theory and survival of the fittest. For instance, the flowers that underwent a mutation and became more visable tobees had greater fitness and managed to reproduce... Why yes, I did just have a test on evolution and te Darwinian theory in Biology, how did you know?