Religion

[PsychoInfiltrator]

PsychoInfiltrator wrote:

An interesting concept. Faith is the core of Christianity, not mindless tasks and pitiful customs-that came when people made Christianity into a religion, instead of leaving it as it was-a Faith.

 

 

As for the rites and ceremonies, for a person that is spiriturally linked to the ceremonies there can be no greater sense of communion than reviving myth through a rite. For a believer to (drink wine at church|fast during Ramadan|sit and medidate under a tree) can be a very interior spiritual moment that is strongly felt. For someone outside it might seem a weird thing, I for one cannot understand how people are closer to God by sititng once per week listening to an old man's lecture of what moral is, just as I cannot comprehend why fast all day and eat all night will bring you closer to God. But as an outsider I am only an observer and cannot feel whatever connection there is.

 

Faith is not only at the core of Christianity, but to religion in general, or philosophy for all (would-be) Atheists. Faith is the autonomous reflex to believe that there is a greater purpose behind everything we do, did or will do, it is a common thing in all people. A god may as well be the result of humans shoving that belief to another entity that should be responsible for what happens.

 

 

You've definately done some thinking on the subject. However, I greatly disagree.

 

Yes, taking communion can be a very moving thing, and its supposed to be. (I can go into detail, if you wish.)

What I was really poking at are the Biblically meaningless customs and pointless customs so often associated with and practised by Christians that can take away the faith and leave only the pattern of rituals-it becomes motions instead of something real. While some can be beneficial, they are not necessary and it is often unfortunately acted like they are. Things like the practise of confessing sins to a priest and him getting you forgiveness-for one thing, that particular custom is not Biblical, and disagrees entirely with the core of what Jesus taught. Forgiveness is from God, and it can be gotten without ANYONE but the sinner from seeking it, and merely asking it will get you it. Its a whole lot more simple than alot of people think it is. Then there is the whole having to pray at church-even having a building designated as a church. The church is the body of beleivers, not a building in which they worship. That is something most people forget. As well, regulations on colours of say-draperies in a church, or the Presbyterian (they aren't alone) thing about never baptising someone who was baptized as a child-wholly unbiblical, and worse than pointless.

 

Beleive it or not, most of what churches do, some more than others, is unbiblical and unnecessary.

 

Now, I'm not saying that we Christians ought to be ridiculed for all this, only that changes need to and are taking place and that NO ONE should see Christianity as a maze or pile or whatever of rules, regulations, money-swipage, or mindless bureaucracy.

 

The core of the beliefs of Christianity is quite simple and if ANYONE here wishes it, I'll will put it up and answer any/all questions regrding it, to the best of my abilities. Some answers, to be forwarned, may take a while for me to put into words in such a way as to properly answer the question, or I may need to speak with other Christians and do some research in order to be sure, but if that happens I know that you will have gone deep enough that it will be well worth it.

[DarthTofu]

Nobody's ridiculing anyone, here. Except those fools that believe in the coming of the great White handkerchief (*Snicker*). I have to say, though, you have some very good points there. When your parents still think you're Christian, you tend to notice these things moreso than you usually would, I guess... By the way, what was that bit involving "Would-be" Atheists? First off, there's no hiphen, its just would be, second off, I'm pretty positive I'm Atheistic.

[Evaders99]

I'm monitoring this thread closely. If it ends up flaming, I will close it.

 

Two topics that always end up in such heated discussion are politics and religion. Be nice people, and this thread will be open for discussion. If not, I can always lock it.

[DarthTofu]

Nobody's ridiculing anyone, here. Except those fools that believe in the coming of the great White handkerchief (*Snicker*).

 

I'm sorry, Evaders, I'll lay off the white handkerchief folks..

[Darth_Rob]

I was just wondering what "Agnostic" was. I am unfamiliar with the term.

[Eko]

An agnostic is someone, who whilst not believing in god per-se, still does not discount the possibility that there may be a god. They are yet to make yp their minds so to speak.

 

I myslef would probably come from the perspective of a skeptic on the matter of religion, trusting more to science. However I maintain an open mind on the subject and I cannot discount totally that there may be a 'bigger picture' in all this...anything is possible.

[DarthTofu]

That's the thing- with all religions there is nothing that can either prove or disprove them, hense we can not discount nor know of higher beings. That probably came out wrong, but I'm just saying that Budism is the only religion that doesn't require any faith to fill in the gaps, I think (If there are others, feel free to say it- not meant to offend anyone). So Agnostics are those that would rather not be a deffinate in saying "I'm going to Hades" or "I'm going to Heaven!" meaning that they are making sure that if there are higher beings, no one is pissed off at them for worshiping someone who didn't exist/is an enemy. At least that's my interpretation of it.

[Darth_Rob]

Perhaps I am "agnostic", seeing how I am in a confused state right now, not knowing what to believe...

[Lord_La_forge]

Just something to add: Buddhism ( I voted it) is one of the "clearest" of them all for me. It's based on logic, and experience. It's about meditation,and that means nothing other, than learning the true nature of things. Getting all the experience you can, and seeing the World more clearly. So it's something like a learning process, -lifestyle - that depends on you.

Or it's like a guide, but not a rule. Buddhism itself had no restrictions, no codes. Buddha himself asked his students, not to write his words down!

It's not an ezoteric mess, as many believe. But it's very friendly and addaptive. Buddha never said, there are no gods. He just didn't care

Because it's not importan for your life. In my interpretation, there can be lots of gods, but those are guides too. Schemes for your life, concetrations of attributes. But those are no greater beings floating around outer space, or heaven, or something.

 

And it would be stupid to fear something, that "maybe" doesn't exist.

 

Subjecitve: buddhism is poisoned too, like all other religions. But that won't meant it's useless, or bad. It just means, it's Church is wrong, or atleast parts of that. The institute of the religions are to blame in most cases (hey I wrote this here before once ) :

 

Some years ago, 2 buddhist monastries had some disagreements, and it's monks begun to fight each other. Nice little brawl it was!

 

I've just heard in the radio, that in Rome (in the medieval times) , there was a rule for Catholic priests and monks, not to have sex on the altar! There was really a code for that. Just imagine...

 

Everybody knows that the Koran is not the spiritual source of terrorist actions on the globe, it's just a misinterpretation of their own religion, probably caused by some totally dumb or more likely extremly clever priests of the Islam.

 

phew

[PsychoInfiltrator]

Everybody knows that the Koran is not the spiritual source of terrorist actions on the globe, it's just a misinterpretation of their own religion, probably caused by some totally dumb or more likely extremly clever priests of the Islam.

 

A couple problems gramatically and spellingwise there. No the in front of Islam. And its Qur'an not Koran.

 

And it is not a misinterpretation of their religion-its in the Qur'an. And yes, people say: its says such and such that doesn't support this in the Qur'an, but the truth of the matter is is that at the beginning, Mohammed was trying to get Jews and Christians over to his way of thinking, it didn't work, so later in his writings, he changed his views against them. In the equivalent of Armageddon, the people of Islam are supposed to kill every Jew. Not exactly the nicest thing that could be done at the end of the world.

 

There is a certain complete lack of knowledge about Islam that I find somewhat disturbing in your post. Perhaps an Islamic scholar on the community could show his/her face and explain a few things?

[Stellar_Magic]

Well, I suppose the fact that Mohammad waged a war might have something to do with the violent nature of fundamentalist islam. Then again one of his wives was a christian... how confusing.

 

Also Koran is actually a valid spelling, as well as Qur'an. Most of the time I've seen translations its been spelled Koran.

[DarthTofu]

A couple problems gramatically and spellingwise there. No the in front of Islam. And its Qur'an not Koran. quote]

 

Uh, actually you can spell it either way The spelling Qur'an is more widely acknowledged, but this is merely an English interpretation of the Muslim spelling of the word in... um, damn, we're studying this in World History, why can't I remember what language the Qur'an is in? Anyway, it can be spelled either way. And I guess I sort of have to agree with you. in the Qur'an I think it mentions something about Muhhamad and his followers getting mugged in Meccan, or whatever its called (I should probably pay attention in class sometime soon, eh?) so the went out on the Hraj which was a journey away from Mecca before Muhammad and a whole crap-load of followers came back, defeated the government, crushed all other religions and forced these people to adopt the Muslem (sp?) ways. So I guess you could see that as a message saying "It is your duty to oppose and kill all who don't practice the proper religion", though even if you did believe that, randomly killing thousands with no real purpous, that's just wrong. They didn't know if any of these people even were of the "proper" religion to survive. Rest in peace, victems of 9/11, toss in your sleeep as we close in on you, Bin Laden...

 

Edit: Oh, whoops, didn't know Steller Magic was posting at the same time as me- would explain why these overlap on a couple of things!

[Trejiuvanat]

The Coran is not all different from the bible, it was written down by man (inspired by divinity). This implies that some particular views are influenced by the time of it being written down. Thus Coran is influenced by the life of Muhammad.

 

I would like to see some veritable source regarding the whole thing about Jews and Armaggeddon, as I don't see that one being true, more like propaganda to me. Considering that Jews, Christians and Muslim lived together for about a thousand years. Considering the timespan, Jews in Palestina could have been completely eliminated, long before the XIXth Century and the begin of European intromisions in Mideast.

 

Also, it shouldn't be too surprising that one of Muhammad's wives was Christian. Islam draws elements from Christianity and Hebrew tradition into it. Jesus is considered a prophet by them, as is Abraham both significant figures in Christianty and Hebrew tradtitions respectively. Many Christian populations were converted to Islam early on, long before thehy were forced to by military power. And for a long time Jacobite Christians were allowed to retain their religion, in today's Libannon, Sudan and Ethiopia.

 

Islam has always been seen through a distorted glass by the West. Christians have also pillaged and murdered thousands with no real purpose other than them revering another religion. (Think the Crusades and the Middle Ages). Jews have a long history of being enslaved and driven away essentially by all major world powers in history, from the Egyptians to the Romans to the XXth Century, both Christians and Muslims have recriminated and repudied them over the centuries.

 

On a more anthropologic note, Islam is still a young religion, and it still must change a lot. Religion is yet to be separated from politics, but that's something that even Christianity didn't have 700 years ago.

 

But the core beliefs are not too dissimilar from our own. Islam means submission, submission to God, more precisely. And many of their rites are meant to symbolize this submission. Islams has also transmuted as it has expanded into different regions, particularly Africa and Indonesia.

[Lord_La_forge]

A couple problems gramatically and spellingwise there. No the in front of Islam. And its Qur'an not Koran.

 

And it is not a misinterpretation of their religion-its in the Qur'an. And yes, people say: its says such and such that doesn't support this in the Qur'an, but the truth of the matter is is that at the beginning, Mohammed was trying to get Jews and Christians over to his way of thinking, it didn't work, so later in his writings, he changed his views against them. In the equivalent of Armageddon, the people of Islam are supposed to kill every Jew. Not exactly the nicest thing that could be done at the end of the world.

 

There is a certain complete lack of knowledge about Islam that I find somewhat disturbing in your post. Perhaps an Islamic scholar on the community could show his/her face and explain a few things?

 

Certain complete lack? I never told that I have a great knowledge here. Muslims were saying that, what I wrote earlier. And if the Koran would say, kill all Jews, well I would be really suprised. The Bible didn't say, kill all heretics. Yet we had 3 crusades, like Trej mentioned. I do belive, that it is a misinterpretation, until the opposite isn't proved by someone.

But a veritable source would be very nice, like Trej wrote before:

I would like to see some veritable source regarding the whole thing about Jews and Armaggeddon, as I don't see that one being true, more like propaganda to me. Considering that Jews, Christians and Muslim lived together for about a thousand years. Considering the timespan, Jews in Palestina could have been completely eliminated, long before the XIXth Century and the begin of European intromisions in Mideast.

The first mis-spelling was an accident, my english isn't that good. But we do write Qur'an as Koran. Considering that we don't even have "q" in our alphabet here, in CE.

[Jahled]

Just a slight swerve off topic in a small way, but I was listening to BBC Radio Four this morning before I set off to London Zoo a day late, to a program about a French team who reckon they've almost found the legendary thrid Buddha statue in Afgainistan (the previous two having been blown up by those religious fascists the Taliban). According to legend this 'reclining Buddha' is as long as that French tower thingy in Paris is as tall.... that is, umm, very big.

 

As for any mention of the crusades being a Christian construction, crime, or reason for guilt, Muslims have had plenty of Crusades over the years. They had 'crusades' against North Africa, Spain, Europe, India, China, Afgainistan; in fact all over the place. They took particular delight in destroying Buddhist monestries and sacred texts in India; but strangely more or less incorporated a lot of Hindu mysticism into the brand that evolved in India. So any hint of Muslim's feeling wronged by history is laughable, as it is unconstructive to a long term view of history. This, however, is only so if you define 'religion' as the ultimate moving force behind historical crusades. Personally I think has been used as a conviniant exuse for conquest and invasion; including the Christian crusades.

[DarthTofu]

Just a slight swerve off topic in a small way, but I was listening to BBC Radio Four this morning before I set off to London Zoo a day late, to a program about a French team who reckon they've almost found the legendary thrid Buddha statue in Afgainistan (the previous two having been blown up by those religious fascists the Taliban). According to legend this 'reclining Buddha' is as long as that French tower thingy in Paris is as tall.... that is, umm, very big.

 

How do you lose something the size of the Ifle Tower? More importantly, how do you steal it and sell it on the black market for eighty billion dollars?

 

As for that bit about the Crusades, I suppose that I can only half agree on it (What with my only having half an education on the matter). Anyway, I believe that at least one Crusade was fought over for control of Israel- more specifically, Jerusilem (Sp?). Anyway, most of these people believed it was their god's will that they should inhabit this area as a place of worship, where his presence was strongest. Personally I disagree, and this is the U.S. so to those who would tell me that I need to change my religion, I can simply stick out my tongue and say "No I don't, haha!" Anyway, the Crusades were more than simply looting and plundering, though not an increadibally significant amount. "Thou shalt not kill thine neighbor." Does that sound familiar to anyone?

[Darth_Rob]

But the Christians saw the Muslims as "infidels". They were not "human" to the Christians, because they had different beliefs, so they did not see a big deal in waging war against them in God's name.

[Trejiuvanat]

Most of the times it is a matter of point of view, from the Medieval Christian POV none of the other religions were 'worthy'. Thus they had not problems waging war and massacring them, thus the crusades and the almost complete erradication of autonomous religions in America (the continent), and even later in the subequatorian Africa.

 

Religion and faith cannot be and should not be blamed for the political developments of this world. The problem is that there are alway world leadedr claiming that God is on their side.

[Jahled]

Forgot: http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/radio4/int/-/radio/aod/radio4_aod.shtml?radio4/buddhas_in_bamiyan

 

or ther main page where you'll see it:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/index.shtml?logo

 

You can listen to the whole program which I think was about 30 minutes long, then tell me what happens in the last ten minutes which I missed because I had to leave the house and do stuff like work with images of Tapirs and big-eared cats of North Africa...

 

Well worth a listen in the background...

[Lord_La_forge]

I've heard about the destruction of such a Statue in that region about 2 years ago. Quite sad it was. Of course everyone was upset about it. But that wasn't the only destruction of art in our past. (turkish invasion, crusades, Mao...) But sure, it was one of the biggest considering it's size. My feelings about that are two-sided. It's of course a disaster of our history, but in a spiritual aspect it's nothing. Most of these statues were representing power, I think. Size and material value does matter, as it has influence on a simple minded person. I'm curious who the sculptors were, and what the concept of it's making was. Probably monks, who wanted to represent the masters wisdom in a material way(?)

[DarthTofu]

I've heard about the destruction of such a Statue in that region about 2 years ago. Quite sad it was. Of course everyone was upset about it. But that wasn't the only destruction of art in our past. (turkish invasion, crusades, Mao...) But sure, it was one of the biggest considering it's size. My feelings about that are two-sided. It's of course a disaster of our history, but in a spiritual aspect it's nothing. Most of these statues were representing power, I think. Size and material value does matter, as it has influence on a simple minded person. I'm curious who the sculptors were, and what the concept of it's making was. Probably monks, who wanted to represent the masters wisdom in a material way(?)

 

No, big statues don't give you power over weak minds- the force does! Though I'll say that those who would denounce Buddists or say that they are 'wrong' in their religion are mentally handicapped, in my opinion. Buddists have no set of gods which they worship, only a path through which to become better people. Why such were ever slaughtered I have no idea.

[Trejiuvanat]

I have tried to look into some information about them, but have found little as to when and why they were build. Bamiyan (where they were located) was an important stop along the Silk Road and was a thriving Buddhist center with over ten monasteries and about a thousand monks. Surrounding the Buddhas in caves are frescos made by the monks, along with examples of chinese, and persian art.

[Aenivae_Ikeda]

I don't know something about the christians saying "The people in New Orleans deserved to die because it was Divine Judgement for their sins." kind of sets me off the deep end.

 

The lack of humanity did away with religion for me.

[Darth_Rob]

I totally agree with that. No group of people deserve to face such a horrible tragedy.

[PsychoInfiltrator]

I don't know, something about the christians saying "The people in New Orleans deserved to die because it was Divine Judgement for their sins." kind of sets me off the deep end.

 

The lack of humanity did away with religion for me.

 

Who said that?

 

I strongly doubt that (whether they said they were or not) they were in fact Christians, at the very least they'ver fallen off the deep end.

 

So who said that horrible piece de junk?

 

Ya know, everybody would be better off if even half of the people who claim to be Christian were, in fact, Christians. Including those who go to church or whatnot.