Revenge of the Sith Teaser Trailer [spoiler]

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

Ok, I've seen a few shots of the Clone Wars animated series, so I ask: is this Grievous?

[Paul]

Yes GAT I checked the official Star Wars site and that is the picture they show of Grievous.-Grand Moff Conway

[teukros]

Speaking of the official Star Wars site, I was there last night and I was reading that there were T.I.E. Defenders at Endor? Did GL Photoshop a few of them in to his "special edition" of ROTJ?

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

No, I think their existance there came about through Decipher's SWCCG. I believe they were members of Onyx Squadron.

[Paul]

That is what the article says anyways.-Grand Moff Conway

[Skynxnex]

The full trailer looks very very nice. I can only hope the movie will be good too.

[teukros]

Starwars.com has a first lookat Outbound Flight, and a picture of the cover art. Looks good.

[Vero]

Well at least we know how that one ends...finally some carnage Thrawn style

[Trejiuvanat]

Interesting...

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

I'm always up for a Zahn book, especially one that has Thrawn in it, but Obi-Wan and Anakin? I thought Outbound Flight was suppose to be a mystery to all those in the Republic. Shouldn't there have been no survivors who returned?

[teukros]

Yeah, I was puzzled by that too.

[Paul]

It's just GL changing things again on a whim.-Grand Moff Conway

[Skynxnex]

It's just GL changing things again on a whim.-Grand Moff Conway

 

 

Yeah...GL typically pissing on the EU as usual.

[Jahled]

It's just GL changing things again on a whim.-Grand Moff Conway

 

 

Yeah...GL typically pissing on the EU as usual.

 

In my view thank god. What i've now been exposed to of the EU is not just up and above the fairies, but well and truely beyond what can even be almost believed (taken what I just said into consideration) given it's all ultimately fantasy/sci-fi.

 

Whilst it's mildly entertaining to leave a copy or two of some of the ultimately cringe-inducing Rogue-super-hero-team-rebel- alliance-squadron lounging around my bathroom for a muse in the bath, there is no way any of this rubbish can be considered worthy of anything remotely resembling canon. Dark Empire is simply worse.

 

The EU books... already said my piece here or elsewhere... but in my mind the entire EU was a penny filler to keep us entertained (mildly) and in my mind is so dreadfull I don't take any of it seriously, or canon (whatever that can possibly mean).

 

But this is only my own humble opinion.

[Stellar_Magic]

No, thats just wrong, you can't put Anakin and Obi-wan on Outbound flight. How the heck would they slip out of Thrawn's net?

 

Jahled, while I agree with your position on many of the EU titles I cannot and never will agree that Timothy Zahn's books are the awful s*** you make all EU out to be.

[Trejiuvanat]

Perhaps they left before Thrawn intercepted the Vagaari. There's still so much mystery around all that battle, Doriana's involvement, the Vagaari's, the Chiss, the Jedi and who knows what else... (On the other hand could you expect anyone going through that Redoubt cluster without a navigational Force-genius as Anakin?)

 

As for EU, canon and everything else, Zahn's books, Stackpole's, Allston's and others are very enjoyable. They are entertaining and help keep the SW flame alive (especially with George's abhorrent prequels around). But the question you should ask yourself is not whether they are bantha poodoo or not, but as Jahled said if they should be canon.

 

Zahn has done a great job with his books, but he has simply elevated so many characters over Vader and over Luke that it seems that he is stealing the show for his own chars. He's creating a new saga for him within Star Wars, and at times the original characters seem to be the secondary ones. Despite his great stories, it's simply not the same Star Wars we see on screen it feel different more distant.

 

I'm not becoming a purist or anything, I do enjoy the EU very much, one just has to look at it differently than you look at the movies. In the EU everything has grown beyond control, there are hundreds of characters, hundreds and hundreds of worlds, the more it grows the more it distances itself from the original movies. And that will be the beginning of the end for the EU.

[SOCL]

Perhaps they left before Thrawn intercepted the Vagaari. There's still so much mystery around all that battle, Doriana's involvement, the Vagaari's, the Chiss, the Jedi and who knows what else... (On the other hand could you expect anyone going through that Redoubt cluster without a navigational Force-genius as Anakin?)

 

As for EU, canon and everything else, Zahn's books, Stackpole's, Allston's and others are very enjoyable. They are entertaining and help keep the SW flame alive (especially with George's abhorrent prequels around). But the question you should ask yourself is not whether they are bantha poodoo or not, but as Jahled said if they should be canon.

 

Zahn has done a great job with his books, but he has simply elevated so many characters over Vader and over Luke that it seems that he is stealing the show for his own chars. He's creating a new saga for him within Star Wars, and at times the original characters seem to be the secondary ones. Despite his great stories, it's simply not the same Star Wars we see on screen it feel different more distant.

 

I'm not becoming a purist or anything, I do enjoy the EU very much, one just has to look at it differently than you look at the movies. In the EU everything has grown beyond control, there are hundreds of characters, hundreds and hundreds of worlds, the more it grows the more it distances itself from the original movies. And that will be the beginning of the end for the EU.

Wow, I haven't heard anything so intelligent in these forums since...um...maybe...well, I haven't heard something this intlligent in a long time...a long time....

 

Basically, I think that Trej's view is correct and that is that the EU has basically spun out of control to become it's own Star Wars. It barely ties with the original movies, but no longer has to. As a matter of fact, if you read the EU novels, you can quite easily pretend it's a "different Star Wars"--as a friend of mine, Eddie, put it concerning the prequel episodes--and it will be enjoyable. A better example, take the movie Troy. As a movie, it was great, but as movie version of Homer's Illiad...well...it sucked. And as far as being historically accurate...well, don't get me started.... But, if you take it for what it is (a cinematic production, a HOLLYWOOD movie) and/or pretend it's about "another Trojan War"--again, my friend, Eddie's words--then you can quite possibly enjoy it. So to those who don't like the EU, I'm with you and I understand you. I mean, who could have ever thought a handfull of young-apprentice-student-Jedi-trainees-in-training could fling a flotilla of Star Destroyers across a planetary system? Well, apparently Kevin J. Anderson thought so and made it quite clear in Darksaber...but then again, don't anyone forget that everything that is in the EU has been approved--and many times outlined--by LucasFilm and George Lucas! It's not entirely the author's fault! As a matter of fact, I think the only novels in the EU that were not outlined by LucasFilm where the original Thrawn trilogy (Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, and The Last Command), and even then, Timothy Zahn had to make some changes LucasFilm and Lucas didn't want.

 

In the end, I don't think we should be too overly critical of the EU...I mean, it wasn't written by Lucas (thank goodness!) and it will never, ever be Star Wars 1977 (i.e. A New Hope). The EU is comprised of many different visions of what Star Wars means to different people. For goodness sake, by some the Force is considered a real religion (I believe Canada had a fair amount of people who listed their religion as 'the Force')! What nonesense, yet it exists. As fans, perhaps rather than criticize--though we quite certainly have the right to do so, and I believe we should use that right--we should take what is given to us. If we don't like it, that's cool, I mean, I didn't always like what I got Christmas (never did I get that PowerWheel I always wanted...always the underwear...so much underwear!), but I waited patiently until either A) I got it, B) I grew out of it, or C) I purchased it myself.

 

SPOILERS AHEAD

 

I suppose I just feel bad for authors because when we, as fans, critisize their work, many of them feel bad--especially those who write in Star Wars. I mean, look at Salvatore, LucasFilm and the NJO editors told him to kill Chewbacca in Vector Prime and almost immediatley he said, "Never mind, get someone else." Quite simply, he didn't want to be known as the one who killed that lovable hairball, yet he eventually took it...and you know what happened? People whined and cried and moaned over it, and then someone even went so far as send him a death threat! Didn't believe the EU had got out of control? Think again. The guy doesn't deserve it, either, he was just told: "Write this, this, and this, include this, this, and this, don't do this, this, and this, and you fill in the blanks inbetween", yet he's the one who takes all the heat for anything in the novel. Additionally, imagine you're sitting at work (let's say a stereotypical job in a cubicle) and someone stood behind you all day saying, "Hey, everyone! Look at what a terrible job Henry is doing today at his job! Look at how badly he types! And have you seen those memos?! Woowee, you would have thought an idiot wrote them! It's crap, Henry, crap, crap, crap, and you should just quit your job because you suck at it!" Maybe that's a tad extreme, but that's how--according to one author--it feels. I realize that with anything there is inherent critisism (sorry, I can't spell tonight), but at the same time there is very little that can be done. As Jahled said, most of these novels are just to make some extra money off an already million-dollar franchise, but it's something, you know?

 

No more soap-box for me.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

I agree with both of you to some degree, but I think there is something we need to consider. Zahn and other authros aren't really elevating their characters above the staples of the OT, they're simply expanding on those events. If you look at everything Thrawn, Mara Jade, Pallaeon, Corran Horn and other have done in the EU, it pales in comparison with what Palpitane has done, or the eradication of the Jedi at the hads of Vader. They're not trying to out-do the originals, they're just trying to fill the void left after the OT ended.

 

Now, IMHO, that only applies to Zahn, Stackpole and Allston. Why? Because after them, the other authors tried to outdo them, create characters that were more powerful and better than Thrawn, Corran and others, or beef up or smack down existing characters. Kyp grew too much, becoming a Super Jedi. It seemed to me that some authors were trying to make Corran and Luke look like wimps in comparison. Then there's the occasional bashing of Thrawn , or attempts to make Han's and Leia's children more than they are.

 

That is what I think makes the EU over-blown, and that is what will kill it in the end. I agree completely that it has spiraled out of control, moving too far from the movies and trying to appeal to a new audience by inserting younger characters into the mix. I think that if the authors can learn not to compete, but to work in tandem, and to embrace the movies, rather than look upon them for cliche inserts (another annoyance in the books) the EU could rise above what it has become.

 

We will have to see what is introduced in the series of books set after the Vong invasion. I think that the Vong were needed, not to introduce a new foe, and certainly not for character development (which was totally ruined in those books IMO), but tomake a clean sweep of sorts. The destruction of most of Coruscant, and the ravaging of the galaxy makes way for fresh adventures rather than a rehashing of old ones. That is, if the same mistakes aren't made in the next series as in the old.

[Trejiuvanat]

I must disagree with you to some extent, every author so far has introduced his or hers own characters into the mix. And it is undeniable that they grow attached to them, and prefer to use them whenever they can. And they develop them, sometimes too much. Karrde's who's grown from a character who was what Han could have become into a fringe-Thrawnish guy with some mysterious links to a certain JorjCar'das... Mara's character has been developed from an 'anti-Leia' who was an assasin for the Emperor, to a girl who could have perfectly beenThrawn's and Vader's superior.

 

Survivor's Quest was a chance for Del Rey to get a Mara - Luke Novel (let's admit it that Mara's the one that does all the stuff here, while Luke' gets injured) and a chance for Zahn to play with the background of the subplot of the subplot of Thrawn and C'Baoth. I don't have anything against Zahn (he just happened to be the last SW book I read and we were also discussing him in another thread), I do like his books and his plots and really want to see how the Outbound Flight ultimately ends, but I don't like the direction his characters ultimately took.

 

Retaking one of GAT last points, the Bantam EU definetely was killed by the competition of authors between each other and the lack of a rough storyline for the OT characters to follow. I mean we went from Luke realizing that he didn't know all about the Force (Thrawn Trilogy) to him becoming a Dark Sider (in Dark Empire) then back to founding a Jedi Academy and believing he now knew everything about the Force. It's not easily digestible, that combined with the different characterizations between authors killed the best period that could have been explored by the OT characters (when they were still young and not some old furniture as in NJO).

 

The Zahn, Stackpole and Allston trio, which worked like a loose partnership (with Zahn and Stackpole working closer)(and Allston coming back to Stackpole for his X-Wing books) wihch improved I, Jedi and the Hand of Thrawn Trilogy. Sad to see that that cooperation stuff never worked during the Bantam Era, and it had to be forced upon in the Del Rey Era.

 

The Prequel EU has suffered from an intense marketing campaign, with so much stuff going one and being sold off in different ways that the Clone Wars are not the great wars we all wondered about for 20 years, but rather the great market deployment we didn't want to see.

 

I'm not sure I do want to see what turn the postNJO takes, because it's too far in the in-galaxy future, probably with the annoying Solo brats in the mainstage and all those young Jedi kids in the background.

[Jahled]

Jahled, while I agree with your position on many of the EU titles I cannot and never will agree that Timothy Zahn's books are the awful s*** you make all EU out to be.

 

Actually I don't recall muttering anything by Zahn, whose Thrawn books were exactly how the EU should have been... an entertaining and almost believable Sci-Fi read considering!

 

The ingrediants Zahn used were all I need to satisfy my love of Star Wars, and what he didn't use (Supernova-inducing missiles from a fightercraft, Star Destroyers twelve miles in length, Jedi's hurling multiple mile long starships through space, etc) all the more so.

 

Don't get me wrong, whilst i've given up on the books these days for the reasons i've already outlined, I enjoy a good comic; Dark Empire for example is entertaining and brilliantly drawn, but to be quoted as anything resembling the Star Wars I got out of the films. I don't think so.

 

In this is where the canon stuff breaks down into being silly in my opinion. I went through the Imperial ships bit of the force.net site and was reduced to laughter and tears in equal measure at obscure referances to ships from Dark Empire... Kam Kennedy is an artist for a living; he has a unique and very entertaining method of illustration that sort of does stuff like make Star Destroyers or SSD's look a bit different. So now this slight variation is canon? Force.net details images of ships seen in tiny panels as something unique. This was just Dark Empire. Force.net then wanders off into the the rather 'way out there' Marvel comics from the seventies and eighties; which even by an ape, whose just had a full frontal lobotomy, might just consider 'a bit far-out man!'

 

So my own canon is what I see and love in the movies, which is quite alot now to be going on. Your's, or anybody elses, can of course be what ever if wants to be. I just think that things get a little messy if we include everything published thus far as canon.

[Skynxnex]

I think one of the reasons Zahn did so well is he introduced us characters who werent some Mary Sue. And by that take a look at Corran Horn. Corran Horn seems to be the guy who can ANYTHING. Ridiculous. Mara is a logical continuation of what we know about Palpatine and his desire to use sneaky methods to ensure his power. Thrawn was a good villain because he wasnt some darksider who kept somehow appearing and Thrawn was good because he honestly thought he was doing the right thing. He may have had bad actions as a result of his motivations but he was an excellent villain. From that point on we got weirdoes showing up like Isard and Zsinj and lord knows what else. To me its a shame that GL didnt work harder with the EU writers to help make sure that everything was continuous. Now with his prequels Lucas has essentially destroyed everything about the EU.

 

We see now that Thrawn and the clone wars that Zahn wrote about is going to be way off. We now have this midichlorian nonsense to contend with. Agh.

[SOCL]

It seems that most of us agree that the Zahn-Stackpole/Allston trio seems to be the best trio of all. Why? They're enjoyable and seem Star Wars-y to read...but then again, the X-Wing novels--as described by Jahled--can be summed as being: Rogue-super-hero-team-rebel- alliance-squadron and this is basically true. But, regardless, most of us can say that once you get past the "Rogue-super-hero-team-rebel- alliance-squadron", it basically becomes a fun read.

 

Now, IMHO, that only applies to Zahn, Stackpole and Allston. Why? Because after them, the other authors tried to outdo them, create characters that were more powerful and better than Thrawn, Corran and others, or beef up or smack down existing characters. Kyp grew too much, becoming a Super Jedi. It seemed to me that some authors were trying to make Corran and Luke look like wimps in comparison. Then there's the occasional bashing of Thrawn , or attempts to make Han's and Leia's children more than they are.

I think the New Jedi Order was mean to correct and clean-up most of this trivial competition amongst the authors (if that's really what it is). Notice how in the NJO we had a committee of editors working together to make sure the series didn't become a stupid "Rogue-super-hero-team-rebel- alliance-squadron" (I like that phrase). They followed Zahn's advice about making Luke less super-Jedi, they made Kyp's super-Jedi skills bad by making him a rogue, and basically addressed all the stupidities of the past. Also notice that the NJO barely makes any references to the Bantam EU novels, mostly only relying on the Zahn and Stackpole/Allston novels with some references here and there to the Jedi Academy. It seems as though those editors (who, by the way, included most of the better authors, specifically Stackpole) recognize who insane the EU became (i.e. "Supernova-inducing missiles from a fightercraft, Star Destroyers twelve miles in length, Jedi's hurling multiple mile long starships through space, etc") and tried to better it. I think that the NJO as a Star Wars series has been quite a success, bringing the EU back down from warlordism it had taken on to a more Star Wars-like atmosphere.

 

We will have to see what is introduced in the series of books set after the Vong invasion.... That is, if the same mistakes aren't made in the next series as in the old.

It seems the next series of books (post-NJO called "Dark Nest" or something like that) is about a race of insectoid creatures that are harassing the Chiss in the Unknown Regions (this is probably addressing the terrible things alluded to by Parck in Vision of the Future, something many of the authors have wanted and feel should be addressed). Though it will be fun to see the Chiss factored into everything, I have the bad feeling this is going to be StarWarsShip Troopers....

 

The Prequel EU has suffered from an intense marketing campaign, with so much stuff going one and being sold off in different ways that the Clone Wars are not the great wars we all wondered about for 20 years, but rather the great market deployment we didn't want to see.

This seems to be a sore part amongst fans. I mean, do you guys remember when Ben Kenobi mentioned that he was in the Clone Wars and nothing else? Sure, all of us wanted to know more about it, but at the same time we didn't! Our imagniations had already gone wild with what the Clone Wars were all about. We all thought it would be a war of ENORMOUS proportions that were terrible and dark where the Jedi were witnessed committing atrocisities, which led to their dislike by many worlds. This would eventually lead, but not be the cause of the fall of the Republic and the rise of the Empire. Of course, it has been changed and now it seems...well...too light and too known, nowhere near as dark, mysterious, and epic as we all expected....

 

SPOILERS AHEAD

 

I'm not sure I do want to see what turn the postNJO takes, because it's too far in the in-galaxy future, probably with the annoying Solo brats in the mainstage and all those young Jedi kids in the background.

We'll probably have the wedding of Jagged Fel and Jaina Solo, and she'll give birth to super-Jedi-who-will-turn-to-the-Dark-Side-but-then-become-good-again-and-be-forgiven-for-destroying-a-planet, Anakinbensoontirwedgehanchewbacca Fel-Solo. By the way, Anakin Solo is dead, correct? He died in Dark Tide II: Ruin, correct? Or am I totally off?

 

In this is where the canon stuff breaks down into being silly in my opinion. I went through the Imperial ships bit of the force.net site and was reduced to laughter and tears in equal measure at obscure referances to ships from Dark Empire... Kam Kennedy is an artist for a living; he has a unique and very entertaining method of illustration that sort of does stuff like make Star Destroyers or SSD's look a bit different. So now this slight variation is canon? Force.net details images of ships seen in tiny panels as something unique. This was just Dark Empire. Force.net then wanders off into the the rather 'way out there' Marvel comics from the seventies and eighties; which even by an ape, whose just had a full frontal lobotomy, might just consider 'a bit far-out man!'

This is something I very much agree with Jahled on. You look at websites like the Techincal Commentaries and you'll find a lot of good information, but then you'll find some insanity/border-line stupidity like the Warships of the Empire entries! Here, Dr. Saxton claims that insignificant, funny-looking Star Destroyers and what-not are actually each their own class of warship (esp. from the Dark Empire comics)! As Jahled said, this is WAY too far-out! It's situations like that where people try to rationalize even the most insignificant, unimportant, totally 'out-there' details in the EU that gives the EU a bad rep.

 

So my own canon is what I see and love in the movies, which is quite alot now to be going on. Your's, or anybody elses, can of course be what ever if wants to be. I just think that things get a little messy if we include everything published thus far as canon.

YES! Despite what Lucas and the novels say, I believe that each individual person is allowed to decide what is canon for them and what is not. As far as referencing and officially, the movies are the canon. Beyond that, each individual person believes what he or she wishes to. I personnally would very much like to believe the Zahn novels are canon, but they simply aren't and can't (at this point in time). I'm with you on this one all the way, Jahled!

 

And by that take a look at Corran Horn. Corran Horn seems to be the guy who can ANYTHING. Ridiculous.

This is another reason I'm rather pleased with the New Jedi Order. In NJO, the authors took Corran and made him more of an older, wiser Jedi than the ex-police-gone-Rogue-Jedi-fighter-pilot-soldier he was previously. Now, Horn comes across a little wiser and well-mannered than he did when talking about that stupid ryshcate (I hate that cliche stupidity...ryshcate...richcake! ) with his pilot-smuggler-Rogue-helper-sunshine wife, Mirax.

 

From that point on we got weirdoes showing up like Isard and Zsinj and lord knows what else.

Agreed. Though I rather like Zsinj because he seemed like a more-or-less intelligent commander who seemed to truly want what was best for his troops--though he started to crack towards the end. Isard, on the other hand, seems to be like Daala--just when you thought she was dead, she's not! "Oh no, kids, it seems like Ysanne Isard is up to her no-good tricks again! Let's see what kind of mischief 'Rogue-super-hero-team-rebel-alliance-squadron' gets into this time!" Seriously, she wasn't even a good military commander and was more annoying that fearfel. Actually, I would classify Isard, Daala, and clone Palpatine in the same category because of the "Hey, I'm back! Be scared despite the fact you're going to win and have always won!" In the Hand of Thrawn duology, though I would have loved to see the Grand Admiral alive, I was very much worried Thrawn would be made...stupid by having him come back every tweleve or thriteen novels to cause more mischief...thank goodness it didn't turn into that.

 

We see now that Thrawn and the clone wars that Zahn wrote about is going to be way off. We now have this midichlorian nonsense to contend with. Agh.

Just another reason so many EU fans have come to dislike the prequels. Actually, I think most of us EU fans should be a little more humble and, well, we can do nothing about so--without wanting to sound like a rude ass about it--just deal with it. Don't worry, once we all get past the acceptance stage, the others (crying, depression, hate, etc.) go by pretty quickly.

[Guest Scathane]

Wow! If this isn't BEAK, than I don't know what is...

[SOCL]

Wow! If this isn't BEAK, than I don't know what is...

[Evaders99]

By the way, Anakin Solo is dead, correct? He died in Dark Tide II: Ruin, correct? Or am I totally off?

 

Star By Star. But you are right.. Anakin is dead. Borsk Fey'lya is dead. Nom Anor is dead. Lots of miscellaneous Jedi knights are dead.

 

Of course, there are some new characters and some old ones that have grown up. Ben Skywalker - I'm sure he'll be a part of the post-NJO era. Jaina and Jacen Solo grown up, Tahiri grown up - I really like her development in the series.

 

It was really the X-Wing series that showed that the books could really have a plot without staring the main movie characters. Without those books, I don't expect that EU would have developed the way it did. Possibly, all the books would have had Luke/Leia/Han do their usual 'kick the Empire' storyline and there would have been no variety at all.

 

I agree there are problems with EU. It often isn't consistant. Different writers have their own styles and characters. But the alternative is what we see from a lot of scifi series... total lacking originality and universe development (Star Trek anyone?). And considering that writers were banned from the pre-Classic/Clone Wars era for the longest time... only way to go was post-Classic