igorimp

Indeed! And I feel proud for starting it. My child it is... Hmmm...

One tiny question? You all mention "normal" Mon Cal cruisers having 6 squadrons of fighters. Where did you dig that information from? All sources I could find state cruisers have 3 squads (1 X-wing, 1 A-wing, 1 Y-wing) whilst Home One - being much larger has 6. In fact, I was under the impression that all ships can double starfighter load when carrying Imperial fighters. The reasoning behind this being that TIE fighters are much smaller craft (10 m long, some 5 wide), while Rebel craft are bigger (X-wings 15 long, 10 wide). This would fit in nicely as I've read somewhere that the captured Star Destroyers now carry 3 sqaudrons of fighters instead of Imperial 6. Nebulon B Frigates (according to LucasArts) carry two squadron in Imperial and (most likely) two squadron as Rebels, although converted. Furthermore, Dreadnaught in Imperial configuration carries 2 squads, Rebel variant being without fighters but more armed. If you've seen TIE fighter launching methods as seen in TIE fighter, it shows that mobile track system which holds TIEs in some ship storage. This system would allow for huge increase in space (making it possible to hold one TIE on top of another), while Rebel hangers (as seen in all three movies) show normal "parked" vehicles, making their storage more land-and-stay type. -------------------------------------------------------- As for other things, you mention that it was dangerous for DS II to launch fighters with shields up. I agree, however, as we see in the first scene the Rebel fleet sees the Empire, massive number of fighters were already waiting for the enemy. This leads us to conclude one of two things: 1) The entire Imperial starfighter force was already ready for the enemy to arrive. However, for this to be true, the Emperor would need to know the exact TIME the enemy attacked. A small side note, TIE fighter pilots have air for like two hours of flight. 2) The Empire constantly switched a portion (some 2-5 % of the total force) every two hours in order to keep up patroling until the enemy arrives. This would be more probable. Upon the arrival of the enemy, the Imperial fleet, however, would have got moving (and woken up) all other pilots to join the massive battle. Every two minutes or so into battle, a new squadron would join in. This, if nothing else, would kill Rebels into exhaustion as they would be forced to kill one ship and then see new six coming their way. Despite this, this would mean that the Rebels did have significant advantage in the early part of the battle. [igorimp thinks hard] Which side's point did I wish to prove? [smacks himself on the head] You stupid, stupid idiot! You're supposed to be an Imperial!

Good work, R2. Just one point, through. You moved imperial bombers and recons out of calculations. The same thing should be applied to Rebel side, because you can't claim B-wings and Y-wings can fight TIEs as effectively as X-wings and A-wings. After all, they have low manuverability because their made to take on big ships, not fighters. Let's for a moment say Death Star II had NO fighters at all for sake of argument. In taking Star Destroyer fighter capacities (1 TIE Fighter recon squadron, 2 TIE Fighter battle, 2 TIE Interceptor battle, 1 TIE Bomber), you get a 1:1 scale on battle-capable Fighters and Interceptors. In your numbers that would be 408 T/Fs and 408 T/Is. Your Rebel numbers take on 732 fighters. Let's be generous with the Rebels. 40 % X-wings (being the most common) and all others (A-wings, Y-wings and B-wings) each 20 %. 293 X-wings, 146 A-wings, 146 B-wings, 146 Y-wings. If all the bombers in the battle were employed in their normal type (BOMBING the capital ships), that eliminates all TIE bombers, Y-wings and B-wings out of the equation. What's left: 408 TIE fighters to take on 293 X-wings (1.39:1) 408 TIE interceptors to take on 146 A-wings (2.8:1) Battle of Yavin in A New Hope shows avarage casualties being 1 X-wing for 2 TIE fighters. I didn't count the Endor ratio, but I'm sure that the number of dead TIEs and wings shown in the movie should be about that ratio (I'll count if I have time). So, the X-wings destroy all 408 TIE fighters and lose 204 Their. That leaves 89 X-wings. At the same time, Interceptors and A-wings are simular machines (and superior to previous craft) and have a 2:1 ratio as well. All 146 A-wings are blown for the lose of 292 TIE Interceptors. There are still 116 Interceptors left which now go for the X-wings. In the final battle, all 116 Interceptors are blown for 58 X-wings lost. I'm favoring the Rebels AGAIN with a 2:1 ratio here (Interceptors to X-wings would more accurately be 1:1.2). That would leave 31 X-wings out of the mighty Rebel fighter force... So, in summary: - I excluded all Death Star Imperial fighters, dropping their numbers by some 98 % to the very MINIMAL number possible. - I took an undercount of Imperial Star Destroyers (15 instead of the previously discussed 24 - there are pictures confirming this count), therby lowering their total number by 432 total fighters (or 35 % of what was left after the previous point). - I made X-wings the majority of the Rebel force, therby lowering the number lost on bombers. 60 % Rebel fighters are now starfighters. - I gave the Rebels realistic 2:1 kill ratio (even when facing X-wings to much newer and advanced Interceptors), despite you might argue the count was higher. I'm going by the movies on this one... And with ALL THOSE CONCESSIONS, the Rebels were left with just enough fighters to fill a hangar on one average Mon Cal cruiser... What you can plainly see is that the Imps easily had more fighters and even if they didn't, Rebels would hardly be left with enough fighters to do anything on the Death Star...

Actually, I didn't forget the advantage of the Interceptors. I was mearly going very into Rebel favor so that I won't receive counter-arguments like "the Rebels have better pilots" and thingys like that, so I've incorporated heavy pro-rebel favor. In fact, if I would calculate more accuretly, I would have to add that X-wings have 4, B-wings 3 and A-wings & Y-wings only 2 lasers. I've taken numbers four and two to simplify things as the majority of fighters in battle WERE X-wings and TIE fighters. If we would calculate by everything we knew of Star Wars, we would reach a conclussion that the Rebels would be wiped out before even firing at the enemy... which is what I was trying to prove from the moment I started the topic. The battle of Endor is just plain unrealistic... To quote a Monty Python joke: "...one cannot of course prove this... but it is in the same sense that Mount Everest is... and Greedo isn't... Good night."

Here's some math in your eyes. Let say the Rebels had 24 ships all with 2 squadrons of 24 fighters (it had less, without a doubt), which would total 576 fighters. The Empire had 24 ISDs (6 squadrons), 1 SSD (12 s.) and 1 DS (~7000 TIEs on DS1, probbably more here). That adds up to 8872 fighters (remember, these are all just aproximate figures). Let us say that battle begun with both sides have all fighters deployed and firing. 576 Rebels fire between two and four laser cannons (let's say they all fire 4). That would be 2304 shots (if only 50 % of them hit, that's 1152). 8872 Imperials fire just two lasers (I'm going heavily in Rebel favor here, since almost half fighters were four-blast interceptors) and do 17744 shots (again favoring the rebels, let's say their pilots can hit s*** and only do 10 % of that, which is still 1774). In this heavily favored pro-Rebel version, Rebs did 1152 damage, while the Imps did 1774. [There's more... ] An avarage TIE can take two shots, while an X-wing, with shields and all somewhere about 12 (don't know the actual number from LucasArts simulations). Acording to this, the moment after all starfighters shot their lasers, the casualties would be like this: Imperials - 576 TIEs, Rebels - 147 Wings and 1 heavily damaged -------------------------- After every Imperial fighter has fired for his third time, Rebels would have lost all fighters, while the Imperials lost only 2242 fighters with some 6000+ still remaining. This calculation has been reached by streching Rebel fighter capacity to the limit, giving them a 1/2 hit-to-miss ration (while the Imps had 1/10) and giving their shields the benefit of being breachable after the 12th shot (which is not the case in A New Hope). Even if we would DOUBLE the Rebel forces, the Imps would still lose less then half the starfighter force. In the movie, halfway into battle, you hardly even see a glint of Imp fighters... where just 10 minutes ago, there were thousands beaming down upon them... I think I stated my point. Hard to imagine I dropped out of collage because of math, ha? ----------------------

I don't need to clarify the title. It really says it all. In addition, I have a bunch of new cards with new races... The only bad side is that due to program limitations, I have no textures on ships (all have same color). Check it out at: http://swrebellion.topcities.com

OK, sorry. My spelling mistake. Let down my Eastern European guard for a moment. MUST NOT let it happen again!

No, I really WAS kidding. I have uttermost respect for Wedge, as I do for all pilots (Star Wars or real). I just like to joke around fans of secondary characters in Star Wars because MY idol in Star Wars is an old man carrying a crane. Try to imagine the load of b*** I hear from people about that. Besides, I think the crane's kind of sexy...

Gee. Wedge fans... They're almost as silly as Luke fans... Just kidding. Really.

Nice thoughts on transports being used as bombs. Unfortunatly, it can't be true because of a simple reason: you always see them in battle. In the first shots, when the fleet comes out of hyperspace, there are 2-3 transports visible. Some time later we see one blown up by the Death Star. After this shot, the Rebels engage the fleet and there are more transports visible. In the final scene when fighters escape the Death Star I'm very sure I saw at least one. It would be tacticly stupid to have ship-bombs in battle... and not use them. Especially since being outnumbered and outgunned. It would have been a good plan, but it wasn't such. On the other hand, presence of transports in such a battle isn't really sensible (neither are medical frigates engaging Star Destroyers one on one...), however there are a few more possible explanations: 1) The transports could have carried troops for invasion of the planet if the strike team failed. This would pose, again, a question of why they weren't employed... OR (and I'm placing my bet on this one) 2) They were converted to carry something other then cargo in their inside... like fighters. I think it would be a very good idea for the Rebels to crank up fighter bays in more ships for extra support.

We've already mentioned historical battles here somewhere. I go on to explain that every such example has something behind it (ie. a great leader, a superb manuever, element of surprise...) and note that the Rebels had none of these things. Take a look a few pages back. It's worth reading, as is my tactical analysis of the battle (you'll find a link some two pages back).

First, in regards to speeders being used on Hoth, I've read somewhere that starfighters build for space (X-wings for example) don't perform perfect within atmosphere. That's why there are speeders for ground combat and starfighters for space combat. As for Rebels using hit-and-fade tactics, that's true. In fact, the entire Rebel war against the Empire was fought in this way. However, the topic here is Endor - where the Rebels met the Empire head-on. And if you argue that the Rebels never engaged the Empire's fleet openly, that only goes to prove how farfetched Endor is - because the Rebels fought them for the first time openly and WON against all possible odds (ie. better training, more firepower, greater numbers... etc.). As for starfighter numbers, as far as we managed to calculate, the odds weren't 10:1 for the Empire... they were closer at somewhere along the lines of 70:1.

Having completed the space battle tactical analysis (http://www.geocities.com/the_emperor1981/tactical.htm, I've now come up with the ultimate tactial analysis of a single most important scene in the battle of Endor (ground combat) at the very begining of the battle. Warning: seeing the explanations of this scene may cause you to be sickened by your favorite side in the galactic conflict. http://www.geocities.com/the_emperor1981/endor-truth.htm

I'm a little surprised that so many people answered Fantasy, yet we mostly hear about non-fiction and Sci-fi books. Well, here's my input: - Terry Pratchett: Feet of Clay (if you've never read a Discworld novel, you're missing up on the best thing that comes in paper since hot dogs). - Guy Gavriel Kay: Lions of Al-Rassan - completly opposite of Pratchett, dead serious fantasy novel based on old Spain. The only book that made me weep like a kid at the end. Reading it for the 781st time.

Which reminds me of forgeting a few important games in my first post: Master of Orion series (I really liked the first more, I think the Duce lacks the same kind of athmosphere from no. 1), I hoping to get my hands on no.3 soon (PS. if you liked it, try Master of Magic); Heroes of Might and Magic serial (the III was brilliant, but I hated the IV, for the same reason as Orion 2, lack of athmosphere and ruining all the good elements of the last part); Civilization series... Need I say more?

That said, I DO belive in other universes in a term of dimensions. We know four so far which are really simple. Given from the simplest examples upward and comparing our planet to the universe, I'd say there are about 791 of them... Now, THAT's a guess... Not even educated... Just a plain, unagumented guess...

The experiment is interesting, but the result seems very far fatched. Now, I'm really not a scientist... ...in fact, I've had a bare grade of 2 out of 5 in my physics in high school , but the claim seems to me very distant. To me, a more reasonable explanation is that the photon is divided into even smaller parts which we haven't yet come to know (in the same way as everything is divided into tiny atoms only sensitive equipment can detect), because if you look at the flashlight case, that's exactly what happens on a larger scale. A single beam of light is separated into smaller parts which part to go for one hole or another... On the other hand, if it is true and the other beam of light really COMES from another dimension, WHY would it go through the other hole...? Choose to? In fact, if (most likely) our laws of physics do not apply there, why would it be light... why wouldn't it be green in color... huge in size... smelling of old cheese... or something... Now, again, I stress that I really don't know s*** about physics (which would probbably mean that I know even less then a scientist that claims that on television ), but I think their conclussion is just speculation...? That's what experts call an "educated guess". It's not just guessing, it's guessing after 5 years of school...

Like I've mentioned countless times, Endor was a TRAP. The Rebels attacked with a fleet what they thought was an undefended Death Star - only to find an Imperial fleet in wait. A Rebel commando team attacked the seemingly underdefended shield generator - only to be surprised by what Palpatine called "a legion of troops". Now, everything else aside. Say if YOU are in command and are prepearing an ambush for the Rebels on a moon. Would YOU really sent a dozen troopers and a few AT-STs in what was concived to be the FINAL battle against your enemy. Like I've explained much earlier in the forum, each ISD carries 20 AT-ATs and 30 AT-STs (x 24 = a LOT). The forces were there in the system, just for some reason we saw 4 AT-STs instead of the available 600. Now, for the sake of argument, let us asume the troops did indeed go around the moon in search of enemy troops. At some point an alarm was raised and the entire sector was aware of a ground battle at the shield generator... how much time should those troops NEED to return to the shield generator??? 1 minute... 5 minutes... 15 minutes... Because the battle seemed to me to last much longer... With the Emperor's statement to Luke and the very meaning of the importance of the shield would make the installation by default THE MOST HEAVILY GUARDED PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE (with the possible exception of Coruscant). Instead, the Imps placed 80 troopers and two officers... Gee. Ingenious.

My conclussion from the tactical analysis is as follows: 1) Except for the very begining of the battle, to compensate for the weakness of the Rebel fleet, Rebel starfighters had (and were, as we see in the movie) to be employed against Imperial starships. This would, however, simply throw the Imperial advantage to the hands of fighters who would have to have slaughtered both Rebel groups. The fact that those several thousand TIEs played no major role even when there was no one trying to fight them, that's just insane... 2) The fleet engagement suggests that both fleets were in close contact for most of the battle, which would be suicide for the Rebel fleet, fighter support or no fighter support. 3) The Death Star might have just fired two shoots in the entire battle (the once seen in the movie), but the aim of the second shot suggests very high accuracy on the DS side which would allow it to even pick starships inside Imperial formation. 4) At the bottom line, I've almost changed my opinion. It is entirely possible to accept Rebel victory... if we could only come up with an explanation of why the 7000 TIE fighters disappeared in the first 15 minutes of battle...

OK, guys. I've taken the time to create a tactical analysis of the entire battle. Here's what I've come up with: http://www.geocities.com/the_emperor1981/tactical.htm

In fact, I've lost the Mage in the battle against that Vampire Carstein. But, to agree with you: first heavy bombardment and then my post-artilary strategy was mostly "move 'em in... move 'em out". Also known as hit-and-fade (with the emphasis on fade...)

Say, speaking of Imperial ship-building, I've written a small Star Wars story based around Kuat Drive Yards. It's called LOYALTY TO TREASON. It offers a really weird angle to some events in Star Wars and raises some intersting thoughts (not Lucas-approved, I'm afraid ). If any of you would like to read it, let me know. I'd be happy to hear some thoughts on it.

Very nice analysis, SOCL - as befits the leader of the BEAK Imperium. Now, just a little comment regarding a thing or two: "I paused the movie a couple of times and back to the count of 21, not a very bad number, but many of those ships were transports or frigates" Among the fleet the Rebels sent to attack the most powerful station in the galaxy, you will notice several Medium-class Transports (described by most sources as outdated bulky transport ships with an armament of two-four lasers. Certainly not what you would call a "combat ship" and one will ask what the hell were transports doing there (perhaps transporting an invasion force for the planet if the team failed?). Furthurmore, if you will recall, the name "Nebulon-B frigate" is LucasArts invented. In fact, all movies sources dating from the Empire Strikes Back refer to the ships as "Medical Frigates". As we know by these sources (TESB Movie Sourcebook mainly), the Rebels captured several Imperial-produced Nebulon's and converted them to Medical ships. This furthur aguments my claim of a rag-tag made Rebel fleet. The only actual combat ships identified were the Mon Calamari Cruisers, which would compromise at most some 50 % of the fleet (or some 25 % to be realistic), making their number at 10 HIGHEST. Personally, I would go much lower, but let's keep the highest number in perspective. "I am not saying the Imperials would open fire on the Rebel ships with the Death Star II when they are so close to Star Destroyers, but it raises a few questions to Imperial close-fire support strategy" An intresting side note here about DS firing. The second Death Star blast seen in the movie destroyed a Medium Transport that was seen moving away from the Death Star at very high speed (almost fighter speed). LucasArts says their top speed is 80 MGLT (which is about B-wing speed) and it raises a question of how can the Death Star beam be so precise in firing to take out a ship 50 meters long and traveling at 80 MGLT (1 MGLT = 13 km/h, so it's about 1040 km/h)... and be unable to target a 1200-meter Mon Cal Cruiser traveling at top speed of 10 MGLT (130 km/h) which is a hundred or so meter sideways to another ship that would be in the way. If you think about it, the only way for the Rebels to use the Star Destroyers as cover would be to actually move INSIDE the Imperial fleet and hide BEHIND the ISDs, keeping them between them and the Death Star. Now, that kind of point-blank range would be pure suicide since the enemy would be able to bring all the weapons to bear on the invaders. Try taking a single Corvette in Rebellion and moving it inside a formation of four Nebulon B frigates and see what happens. My bet, the battle's going to last 2 minutes... A comment on Rebel leadership. There was, apparently, a way to evade BOTH the fleet and the Death Star if the fleet simply moved around the Death Star, as the Superlaser is just facing one direction. I'm sure the rotational cycle of the Death Star would make sure that it couldn't swing around as fast as the Rebel fleet could move and the Imperial fleet would be forced to simply fly behind in orbit around the DS. But, I guess it would simply LOOK SILLY in the movie for an attack fleet to act as a moon, rotating around a Death Star and no actual action taking place... "Lando famous: "Red Group, Gold Group, all fighters follow me!" Now, the fact that this was allowed shows another lack of tactics" Althrough I'm sick of the thought, I might just jump into Lando's defense here. The order above did not mention Green and Blue group which apparently stayed behind to help the fleet (including those seen later attacking the Executor). In addition, I've read somewhere that Green group took high casualties in the battle and was all but wiped out. "Executor must have been far too close to the Death Star" This is an interesting puzzle we have here. When the battle commences, the Rebel fleet jumps far from the Death Star (because we can see that the 160 km station is rather small from Lando's cockpit). After some approaching, the fleet turns around and sees the Imperial fleet behind them, which was apparently very far away. The proportions seen when the Death Star fires seem much smaller... In fact, when the Rebel fleet moves to attack the Star Destroyers, the fleets seem very close to the Death Star which would actually suggest that the Imperial fleet DID IN FACT MOVE towards the Rebels (despite Piett's orders), although it could suggest that they were moving into better blocking position to stop escape. Furthurmore, I can see some pattern here as the Imperial fleet (in the time of the Executor's destruction) was totally on top of the Death Star. This would show an interesting tactics in the Empire's part where the fleet would have acted as a hammer moving the Rebels towards the anvil (the Death Star). This was apparently an attempt to undermine the Rebel manuvering and bring them closer to DS 2 for easier targeting. Imperials SEEMED to use far better strategy in the battle. The only thing that doesn't add up in the whole thing is that the Rebel fleet was still in front of the Star Destroyers, which would suggest (save for the possibility of Rebel fleet moving BACKWARDS) is that the Rebels did in fact turn and move back toward the Death Star at some point. "count of 14 Rebel ships with an interesting count of zero star destoryers" This seems to consist with Zahn novels, as Cap. Palleaon's thinking suggests that he ordered the withdrawl of the fleet after the Executor was destroyed, which happened earlier in the battle. Still, according to the counting, the Rebels lost about 7 ships, from which only one Mon Cal and one Medium Transport have been confirmed... Not bad for a rag-tag fleet.

No problem. We all have bad days. I don't know... You use a lot of MAYBE's in those statements to justify facts which were simply by right Imperial advantages. Again, what I'm saying is that battle of Yavin is perfectly acceptable as the movie clearly describes the whole situation: the Death Star had a weakness and it was exploited. It's as simple as that. On the other hand, Endor has so many loose ends flying around (in space, ground or Death Star metal) that it's a wonder noone got hit by it... Little joke. ............. No? Concerning the fleet sizes we have dedcuted on this forum to be the closest possible (Executor + 24 ISDs against Home One + ~6-7 Mon Cals), even if only 6 ISDs out of the 24 (or just 25 %) where in the system, along with the Executor's 1000-strong weapon power, the Rebels would still be outmatched beyond hope. Also, take in mind this. The explosion of the Executor's bridge caused it to crash into the Death Star. All movie shots of the Executor show it being surrounded by all the other ISDs. If the Executor was close enough to the Death Star to be pulled in by the gravitational force of it so fast (so fast in fact, that the crew couldn't take control from the backup bridge), then the entire battle (including the ISDs supposebly keeping them from escaping) took place right on top of the Death Star with fleet scattering to different parts minimal. In addition, I know the Interdictor cruiser wasn't really invented for any movie, but it proves that it just take ONE ship to keep a fleet from escaping, not 24. I say the Imperial fleet was BACKUP to the Death Star, not just an inmovable wall to stop escape.

So, a fellow Dark Omen fan. Dark Omen is an exception to RTS because their is no rapid building & research involved (i.e. I have no fear of still researching the Spearman while the enemy attacks me with Space Battle Crusiers). As for Rebellion, at least you can SLOW IT DOWN!!! Yes, I've passed the entire Dark Omen, and the last mission was probbably the wackiest thing I ever did. The Mummies that come out of the Pyramids always caused me the greatest damage, but I've managed (after some 50+ attempts) to kill the Dread King and then avoid melees until I could bring the power to equal. How I killed the Dread King, you wonder? I ran over him... Really, I've kind off happend to have enough luck to lure him towards my main line and then moved the Steam Tank forward and happened to smash him before him ran away. Needless to say, the ending animation was rather funny to see, as the Dread King just died when he should have been a pancake by then... How's that for strategy?