AI and Jedi Training

[R2-Opus2]

Curious to know if the AI ever sends Luke or Vader on Jedi Training missions as the computer.

 

If not, is there a way to have it so if you manage to capture Luke or Vader, put them with whatever prisoners you have, then scrap the prison transport above one of their planets (setting them all free), would either of them have a better chance of finding then raising the stats of a potential jedi?

 

I've been experimenting but have yet to tell if that tactic is a workaround to helping the other side get some of their characters skills raised that way against the computer.

[the_mask]

Good strategy, but I honestly don't know, if the AI does any Jedi training at all. If not, then the AI Jedi could only be boosted by failing certain mission types and escaping afterwards.

 

Tell us, what the AI did during your test when you're done, that would be really interesting.

[R2-Opus2]

That's something else too, I'd like to know what else besides system visabiltiy/importance or game difficulty, determines whether the AI would be more apt to send more characters on sabatoge or espionage missions. Maybe it also has to do with the planet, I don't know.

 

I know it likes to send lots of specops (I usually tend to see those fail and I've never seen more than like 6 noghri commandos for instance go on abduction missions). I also know that if many mission types fail at a planet, after a while they'll send a ship/fleet to see what's there.

 

I understand part of why the AI sucks, and that is that it doesn't seem adjust what to send based on new intel.

[R2-Opus2]

About what I have tested. I couldn't tell when scraping a prison ship, then to keep the characters there (by timing another blocade a turn or two later) that would force Vader or Luke to discover jedis among that group. Maybe detection is delayed because the system is still blocaded, I don't know.

 

But I know that if I move the ship, everone will disperse and I can't quite be sure if there'd still be time for Vader or Luke to detect somebody in that party before any/all leaving on their own.

 

I need to go back and look at rebed again and see if there was also a check box for recruiting...that might also be one solid workaround. Limit only Luke and Vader to recruit.

 

Something else I was doing with this current game I found strange. With the previous incarnation of rebed I had, no matter what I did, the AI seemed to use most of its characters and give 'em command ability. I don't know what the problem is this time, but the only characters I've seen in command have only been generals, I don't see admirals and I don't see commanders even though I've given many characters extra chances to be different kinds of officer.

[Sith_Lord]

The AI does train jedi's because when I played as the Empire, a Jedi knight named chewie confronted the Emperor (He got slashed into pieces and forcelightninged into oblivion) And lost.

 

I had such experience a couple more times while playing as the empire (Hard settings) but it never happend while playing as the Rebel Alliance.

 

Maybe Yoda was right of there are always 2 no more no less A master and a apprentice.

[Sith_Lord]

Something else I was doing with this current game I found strange. With the previous incarnation of rebed I had, no matter what I did, the AI seemed to use most of its characters and give 'em command ability. I don't know what the problem is this time, but the only characters I've seen in command have only been generals, I don't see admirals and I don't see commanders even though I've given many characters extra chances to be different kinds of officer.

 

The reason why you only encountered Generals is because Admirals only are on Fleets and it's very hard to find enemy fleets and personell on those fleets. The AI never gives a command rank that is lower then General, at least it does with me. The AI usually promotes characters to the Highest Rank Available.

[R2-Opus2]

Well there are plenty of fleets they could put characters on, so something else must be wrong. I guess what I'll have to do is display my current Rebed settings, maybe people might know what I've done wrong.

 

It must lay somewhere with how my main and secondary characters are setup, not how everything like fleet and such are.

 

I did strip away the variances in Diplomacy, Espionage, Comat, Leadership and Loyalty, and put that at zero, while at the same time, I checked off the box that said "won't betray his side". I did this combo for two reasons, the second is obvious, but I wanted each character fairly strong because I wanted a challenging game. So each category is raised. There is another reason too, and that's the effect it has on tactical mode if a character is present on a fleet. It makes everything speed up a bit...Fighters move a little faster, as well as capital ships if leadership is boosted for example.

 

With the variance in place though, it'd either bounce those stats up, or down. So if it ended up downward, It'd take twice as long to build up a character's points.

 

The first time around at trying this, I had several characters with an espionage rating lower than Mothma's if you can believe it , and combat was also in the single digits with some of them. If you've ever invested time in building up Mothma from her stock crappy stats, you have a rough idea what I was facing, but add in half a dozen other characters.

 

So I adjusted rebed again, this time taking out the variances, giving serveral 100 across the board with the exception of leadership (200 for rebs, then the computer added in the Imp bonus, they have 300 or so)

 

What I am wondering is if anyone knows this, is does stripping away the variances in skills somehow effect the AIs ability one way or another to place characters in command positions?

 

Again, the only AI characters in this session I see in command are Generals, and only then, just on fleets. I don't even see commanders or generals on planets, or admirals set up in the fleets. Also Palpy this time around has never moved his butt off of Coruscant when usually he does to do some diplomacy.

 

Maybe diplomacy is another skill involved here too. If for instance I boosted several characters up in diplomacy, enough to rival Palpy's, maybe the old geezer would stay put on Coruscant...I don't know.

[R2-Opus2]

Update:

 

Trying out my second game (my second since a reinstall). This time I didn't touch the variances in skills, but somehow the AI went back to putting its characters in command more often like it should so I reckon this mighta been the source of that dilema. It makes no sense to me if this is why it screwed up before, but oh well.

 

I also gave everyone jedi potential, but to counter some of the drastic variance trouble I had, I tacked on anywhere from 100-150 in each skill (on both sides, almost half of the characters had "Mon Mothma" stats *shudder*).

 

Also since i'm dubious whether the AI will use Palpy or Vader to train Jedi, I decided to up the jedi rank of a couple of characters on the Empire side, and also gave one of those the ability to train. I'm curious to wonder if for some reason the AI won't do those missions with those two key characters at all...but might if a secondary character could train...we'll see.

[Alyssa]

After hundreds of SWR games on all three difficulty settings, I'm convinced the AI never runs Jedi Training missions, or really pays attention to jedi whatsoever. It just treats its jedi characters as it would any others.

 

In my opinion, that's a huge fault with the game (and something I wish RebEd were capable of fixing). Where's the fun in playing against the computer if it's not going to bother using its jedi characters, or building them to their full potential?

 

If you ever face off against an AI character who's a jedi knight or higher, it's probably because that character started off at that force level when he was first discovered to be a jedi. Or perhaps because he raised his force level through repeated espionage missions. There is a degree of variance (usually +/- 40) in the starting jedi level of any given jedi character. My guess is that characters you encounter in the knight levels and higher started off around 40 or 50, and then built themselves up accidentally through missions.

[the_mask]

Hi Alyssa, welcome to the swr forums.

 

IIRC, the knight rank starts at 60.

[R2-Opus2]

Welcome Alyssa.

 

Yea, I pretty much came to the conclusion that if I want a challenging game with the AI is to give them a break on costs/resources in lieu of actually altering up their stats too much because I'm becomming more and more convinced that the AI's ability to mix up the command ranks largely hinges on the fact that too many stats are above 100. I believe this was why I was having that "General on fleets only" dilema.

 

If I don't change stats too much from their stock, they assign admirals, commanders, and generals on fleets and planets as before.

 

I still boost their leadership if nothing else, so's that fleet battles move a little quicker in tactical mode.

 

Also, by giving a secondary character the ability to train Jedi, I have not yet seen them train after not seeing Vader do it.

 

I had thought originally that possibly the reason Vader does not train is because there was always one Imp system somewhere along the way needing diplomacy work done. And Vader's primary objective according to the AI's direction, after recruiting, is diplomacy. But all I found was that Vader would just stay on the last world he was on that he did his mission if all systems weree fully swayed. Ususally never being in a command position even though I have him set to be able to be all 3. (Again though, I suspect maybe he doesn't get a command job because his stats are too high if my theory is right about the secondary characters above).

[Alyssa]

About high stats: I've also noticed that stats seem to "cap" at around 200, and that stats above the 200 mark really don't confer additional benefits. Also, stats that are *too high* (300s and above) seem to wrap around back to 0 in terms of how they are calculated in the game's equations. To test this out, try using RebEd to boost a character's starting stats to all 100s, and then give that character a force level of 200. His stats will soar past 300, and for some reason, he'll start performing as poorly as if his stats were in the single digits.

 

Perhaps stats above 300 were never intended in the normal game, and this is mostly a side effect of my overuse of RebEd. Even still, it's highly annoying. I am a big fan of playing "jedi games," wherein building up my jedi ranks and sending them on missions is the primarily objective of my game. In such games, it's infinitely more fun if I give the AI a bunch of jedi knights and masters, and then attempt to train my own to challenge them.

[ElvisMiggell]

Yeah i sometimes find if you stick the Jedi level on 200 you get that. 199 works fine though, and f you put the modifier right up, particularly with Luke, you can get some seriously powerful stuff going on!

[R2-Opus2]

That's what I was hoping for too when I set up my jedi game, but despite the high stats of the opponents, I tend to wind up with less of the AI characters actually in command...I guess in hindsight, the reason I saw Generals if any command position at all, was that its typically the best one to be if there are troops present.

 

Since I usually only saw them on fleets, I would assume that ships are their best assets especially if they can hold troops, thus it can better thwart sabotage missions on them more effectively. So, maybe it is a fault of the AI, but in a way, probably not. Perhaps the rank of General beyond a certain stat level in AI characters is "the most desired" rank in that respect.

 

The enemy AI will still send characters on missions though, even if it isn't using them to command anything so I guess that's still a plus for a jedi high stat game.

 

Anyway, to counteract this AI rank assignment a little better, instead of making every enemy character "uber", I'd keep half their number or so with relatively lower stats so it can somewhat set ranks more normally. Maybe that'll give me the best of both worlds a little in my next game.

 

I think I'll also try your suggestion of lowering my own side's stats some to make it more challenging. Already though I had boosted Vader's and Palpy's stats to near 500 in esp/combat, so that'll make things tough on any place they hang out. Luke's already been busted several times in my previous game. Only thing though I had to risk more expendable specops to rescue him each time heh

[Lord_La_forge]

Ok. Here is my question:

 

How many jedi's do you play with in rebellion (after modding with Rebed)?

Is it really so good to play with more force users? In the original game, I usually have problems with jedis, because their foil the missions of my jedis. So I have to send lower ranked spies or assasins, since thier can't handle the job.

[ElvisMiggell]

I tend to keep vaguely canon, so i might have Luke and Leia and then depending on what other characters i have i might have maybe two or three others. Often now i have Corran and Kyp along with sometimes the Solos. So normally between 4 and 7.

[Alyssa]

Ok. Here is my question:

 

How many jedi's do you play with in rebellion (after modding with Rebed)?

Is it really so good to play with more force users? In the original game, I usually have problems with jedis, because their foil the missions of my jedis. So I have to send lower ranked spies or assasins, since thier can't handle the job.

 

That's another flaw with the game. From the movies at least, I got the impression that only Jedi Masters (Vader, Yoda, Palpatine, Obi Wan, etc) could detect the presence of another force user -- and even then, only if that force user was particularly strong in the force. In the game, even the lowliest trainee can detect another force user. That ends up screwing up 99% of Jedi missions in my games. Very frustrating. I wish there was a way to edit it out.

[Alyssa]

I also do try to limit the numner of jedi I use in my jedi games, if for no other reason than to maintain the relative rarity and mystique of force-sensitive characters. It's not as if I have everyone running around with a lightsaber. My average jedi game usually ends up with about 6 or 7 enemy jedi to my 4 or 5.

 

Call me a sucker for roleplaying, but I also try to structure jedi games a certain way. Usually the enemy will have one "uber" jedi master, and I'll have mine. Those two will be each other's equals, more or less (though usually I'll make mine a tad weaker). Then I'll give the enemy one excellent, though not quite as powerful jedi master, and the rest will be either masters or knights. I'll give myself a handful of novices to be discovered, and it'll be up to my master character to train them all.

 

This actually makes for a very fun game -- especially if the enemy jedi masters encounter your jedi trainees too early in the game, and your trainees wind up dead.

[Lord_La_forge]

I don't call you a sucker for that! I also want to give more perspective to my games, so I play around with jedis too. But I have only 3-4 in my games. There is only one know jedi on each side after Luke,Leia, Vader an palpy. I just don't get it, how the computer decides, how many jedis it will give me in each new game. I only have 2 know. In my last game, there were 3 of them.

[Lord_La_forge]

Oh, that's been already answered elsewhere

[the_mask]

Perhaps stats above 300 were never intended in the normal game, and this is mostly a side effect of my overuse of RebEd.

Maybe they used a datatype for the variable, that contains that value, that cannot be bigger than 255, like Byte (0..255). That would explain at least why the stats seem to start again with 300 and above.

[ElvisMiggell]

Yeah but when you get Jedi with their stats in the thousands, they don't seem to get all weak on me.

[Lord_La_forge]

Yeah, I think they will be stuck on a constant level around 250-300. Is there a way to find it out? What is the maximum?

[ElvisMiggell]

I've had them with combat espionage and diplomacy all at over 5000 before.

[Lord_La_forge]

Is there a difference between 250 and 5000?