Rebellion 2?

[steel]

Very easy to allow a choice, but with the choice comes additional artwork and models

 

What I think I will do is settle for using default Rebellion timeline/ships to start with then add additional scenarios later.

[DavidAdas]

Well right now we're just developing the engine so we're simply building it around the originals. An idea I've been rolling around, though, is to have certain characters only recruitable after a certain time period or after a certain event (e.g. if Han and Leia get married, the Jedi twins).

 

But more or less I'd like to start it off as early as possible, that way the player feels as though he or she writes her own Star Wars history. Either way, though, you'll be able to add your own ships and models and such, so you can make it any time period you'd like!

[Slocket]

I'm glad to see your still working on it. Hopefully the community will get some kind of game before the year is over. This is a big project, not an easy task. I can see why it takes two or three years to develope a game. Especially if your doing for free time.

[Noble713]

Allow the ability for multiple eras? Too complicated?

At least, allow some kind of setting on where to start... pre-Galactic Civil War and post. The appropriate infrastructure and settings should allow for different starting point for gameplay.

 

It shouldn't be complicated at all. IMO, the way Rebellion handled the Galactic Civil War it was less "Superpower vs Insurgents" and more "Major Power vs Major Power". This roughly parallels the Clone Wars. Hell, you could have a single "mega-campaign" starting circa the Battle of Geonosis, and the only things you'd need to add would be scripted events to change the Republic into the Empire, the Separatists into the Rebellion, and changing the list of available characters/equipment. The essential game mechanics are unchanged.

 

As for artwork, as I mentioned in a thread over in the other modding forum, EvilleJedi's Homeworld 2 mods have practically every Star Wars ship you could imagine, and they are clean, well-textured meshes with a decent poly count. For 2D stuff.....well, I've been sitting on an unfinished Clone Wars mod for Rebellion for most of a year. I stopped working on it due to the extreme frustration of trying to get the 3d models into Rebellion. I figured it would calm my nerves if I just waited for someone to release a Rebellion sequel and just plug all my stuff into that.

[DavidAdas]

Okay so I am finally finishing up my new code layout. I want you guys to take a look at it. ((Prepare for a reasonably long post))

 

(Note: All these are classes)

-> means inherits the attributes of

 

 

Main Character/Jedi -> Officer -> Unit

Recruitable -> Unit

Special Ops/Regiment/Ship/Building -> Recruitable

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Build/Move->Event

Mission->Event

Assassination/Diplomacy/Sabotage/... -> Mission

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The constructor of Build takes a Recruitable object (that way Officers can't be manufactured).

The constructor of Move takes a Unit object (that way everything can be moved as originally only the Officers could).

Officer and Special Ops both implement a Deployable interface, which means only they can be sent on missions.

 

 

The Big Picture:

What this means is really this: these classes should let you develop your own new Officer types. Jedi is the example I'll leave in the game, but you'll be able to create your own new character classes like Bounty Hunter or Smuggler or whatever else you want and assign them special bonuses. With a small bit of java knowledge, you'll also be able to create your own special missions as well -- design new buildings, create your own game events, build new objects to research, implement additional factions, set different time periods, et cetera.

 

These might not make it to the RebEd2 I am building (because those features may require a compiler) but nevertheless, they will be there and extremely easy for use. Hell, I'll even post a billion tutorials upon release just to ensure you guys have all the tools you need.

 

Aside from that, though, I am currently working on the missions (they may take a bit) whilst working on the start up generators (i.e. generating the players starting officers, planets, recruitables, resources, et cetera). When that is done, I will be writing the system for sending a unit on a mission then testing and tweaking them. This should take a while but will speed up considerably after Finals Week in May.

 

Beyond that scope, what will be usable (for you guys to toy around with) wont be too far after. It wont be playable considering I will still have to write the battle simulator and most of the 3D stuff, but you guys will still be able to move things around, do missions, and scream 'pew pew!' at each other. It will be a time of serious debugging and idea generating though. This is Rebellion 2, after all, not Rebellion: The Rehash! I will be relying on you guys to give me ideas for gameplay change.

 

Until then -- cheers guys! And I hope to have more updates soon.

 

~David

[Khanti]

My idea is to allow starfighters ATTACK mission without a carrier. In original Reb you can't send your starfighters with hyperdrive on assault mission without ships.

I'd like to see this possible. It will allow for use of standard rebel tactics anyway.

[Slocket]

My idea is to allow starfighters ATTACK mission without a carrier. In original Reb you can't send your starfighters with hyperdrive on assault mission without ships.

I'd like to see this possible. It will allow for use of standard rebel tactics anyway.

 

In the past, I made a comment just like that. There is (for vanilla Rebellion) good arguments for not having that way for gameplay sake at the time. As it is, only advantage hyperdrive gives rebels is the fact their starfighters are already deployed and ready to rock the Empire in a fight while the Empire TIE are still getting out to be deployed. Also limits infinite huge waves of Rebel starfighters leads to imbalance.

 

I thought to give limited range to the Rebel (or Empire's hyperdrive capable such as the Defender) starfighters. Maybe as long as there is room on the escort carrier in a particular sector, then they could conduct raids within that sector's system of planets, but they would have to return to their carrier as a base; and if it is destroyed, they would hyperdrive back to a friendly nearest Rebel planet somewhere else.

 

A non-hyperdrive starfighter could not leave the battle without its escort carrier, and cannot withdraw. They are limited to their escort carrier at that planet, and take time to deploy into space battle. Of course, they are cheap to produce.

 

This would give the Rebels an annoying ability to use 'Hit and Run' tactics against the Empires assets creating economic guerrila warefare sniping away at their fixed production sites. The Empire would know there exist a base of operations somewhere from an escort carrier or such group within that particular sector of planets. And would have to spend valuable military ships to go 'hunting' for them to stop the raids.

[Arcanewinds]

After reading about a rotating galaxy, I was reminded of the starmap in Privateer 2. In order to navigate the galaxy, you were required to open a starmap, this starmap was a 3d pretty much cube. You could rotate the cube by holding down shift and click-dragging it. This could be an idea for rotating the starmap of Rebellion 2, especially if you made it 3d. Though, this would probably be pretty resource consuming and difficult, though if Privateer 2 could handle it, I don't see why not. It was a pretty simple image.

 

That being said though, the starmap in that case consisted of very small stars and planets, in that format, they would not be able to show the resource/ship etc. information that you may want. But, I was just throwing an idea out there .

[Evaders99]

Essentially Sins of a Solar Empire does a 3D map as well. Though I think most everything should be on a 2D plane anyway, its hard to conceive of everything in 3D and hard for the player to maintain a frame of reference. If everything is laid out anywhere in a 3D space, it will add to the complexity for most players without actual game value

[VinBadir]

I would like it to be possible to add "on planet" pictures to the encyclopedia, looking at the original Rebellion planet pics was somewhat boring because it just showed the planets themselves in space.

 

I've got a pretty good collection of pics depicting planetary views that I could share.

 

I think it would give the game alot more detail then the original had.

[DavidAdas]

My idea is to allow starfighters ATTACK mission without a carrier. In original Reb you can't send your starfighters with hyperdrive on assault mission without ships.

I'd like to see this possible. It will allow for use of standard rebel tactics anyway.

I thought to give limited range to the Rebel (or Empire's hyperdrive capable such as the Defender) starfighters. Maybe as long as there is room on the escort carrier in a particular sector, then they could conduct raids within that sector's system of planets, but they would have to return to their carrier as a base; and if it is destroyed, they would hyperdrive back to a friendly nearest Rebel planet somewhere else.

Your two ideas are pretty damn good... I'll need to mull it around and see how well it can be balanced but so far I like it. It would really make the game FEEL more like Star Wars.

 

After reading about a rotating galaxy, I was reminded of the starmap in Privateer 2. In order to navigate the galaxy, you were required to open a starmap, this starmap was a 3d pretty much cube. You could rotate the cube by holding down shift and click-dragging it. This could be an idea for rotating the starmap of Rebellion 2, especially if you made it 3d. Though, this would probably be pretty resource consuming and difficult, though if Privateer 2 could handle it, I don't see why not. It was a pretty simple image.

 

That being said though, the starmap in that case consisted of very small stars and planets, in that format, they would not be able to show the resource/ship etc. information that you may want. But, I was just throwing an idea out there .

Hrmm. I built Reb2-3D with a class that could likely do just that. It wouldn't be resource consuming though if I can find a way to JUST move the camera orientation. It will be a bit of a brain burner though... I'll keep this in mind as I develop the 3D stuff. For now I've got a lot of interface to finish

I would like it to be possible to add "on planet" pictures to the encyclopedia, looking at the original Rebellion planet pics was somewhat boring because it just showed the planets themselves in space.

I've got a pretty good collection of pics depicting planetary views that I could share.

I think it would give the game alot more detail then the original had.

Actually, that's not a bad idea at all either. That'd be good for a given unit's background or the background of a planet's info pane. Hrm, actually that might also be a good RebEd2 idea. I'll be sure to put that in there when I get a chance. Furthermore, if you've got images you'd like to donate -- we're always in need of more!

 

While I am on that topic, though, here's a little sneak peak at RebEd2:

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/597/rebed2.th.jpg

Just Planet System creation and Planet placement for now. A considerable amount more to come, though.

[Slocket]

Hey, that editor is looking nice there DavidAdas.

 

I really never could find a good use to gameplay by going with a 3 D map for the galaxy stars (just complicates and confusing). I played Privateer alot, and never used the 3D map to navigate. I used the 2D map. I suppose they were trying to show how the worm holes connected the galaxy together (3D mapped to 2D).

 

Yes, VinBadir, please share your planetary pictures. They could go with a new rebellion especially as a backdrop for a similated '2D' style plantary assault. As you know, the current Rebellion only gives a summary screen, no 'head to head' battle to watch. It does not have to be a full complicated drawn out 3D for the plantary assault, but it would be really nice to see something going on while the assaulting troops take over the planet.

 

Example, seeing how a plantary LNR laser shoots down a landing Storm Trooper; how the battle roll dice are played out to see if the defender or attacker takes a hit, and maybe show a little animation..how a general increases the troops effectiveness...so there is no more WTF happened after an assualt.

 

Though I wonder if it is that way if you have not discovered that a enemy character is already down on the planet. I have assaulted planets when I did no prior espionage and was losing alot of troops to take it. Then I finially figured out there was an enemy general on the planet -he tried to escape but was caught by my fleet. So that would need to be taken into account...hidden characters on planets.

[DavidAdas]

Though I wonder if it is that way if you have not discovered that a enemy character is already down on the planet. I have assaulted planets when I did no prior espionage and was losing alot of troops to take it. Then I finially figured out there was an enemy general on the planet -he tried to escape but was caught by my fleet. So that would need to be taken into account...hidden characters on planets.

Actually I've got some stuff on that which I recently wrote up but... I've got exams so I'm trying to keep my free time as limited as possible (heh). For now though I've got a quick update on the game. Sadly, I don't have time to really get into that either So! I'll just post a simple picture:

 

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/527/reb2awessome.th.png

Obviously it's hardly complete but it is well on its way. If I hadn't mentioned this before, though, I'll say it again: I don't intend to keep the stuff from the previous game. It's just to test my methods. Once I've got the game working and fleshed the bugs out I'll be designing a totally new interface -- and I'll be relying on you guys to help me with that. I'm just not that great with anything 2D. I know we've got some extremely talented artists here, and if you've got anything you'd like to see in the game, feel free to send it: dadams2(at)umw.edu !!!

[DavidAdas]

Oh! And aside from what's above, today is officially the one year anniversary of Rebellion 2!! So happy birthday, Reb2! Who the heck ever thought I'd spend this amount of time on any one thing? I must really, really miss this game. Or maybe I'm just crazy.

[Slocket]

What 3D software will you use to realize it? I just wonder what is out there, and how it is done. I know something barely about DX stuff, but what of other free, or not so free, 3D software?

 

Is OpenGL still around? OGRE? IrrLicht? I think regular DB is slow some say (GDK is faster). So what I did maybe quick and easy, but it may not run worth a stuck pig with hundreds of objects being rendered.

 

Just wondering what real college level programmers use for a 3D software engine. I am still a bit n00b and know just enough C++ to be intermediate level, to real 3D software rendering engines.

 

Thanks, and looking good. These forums have been slow lately, I guess its spring fever.

[DarthTex]

My idea is to allow starfighters ATTACK mission without a carrier. In original Reb you can't send your starfighters with hyperdrive on assault mission without ships.

I'd like to see this possible. It will allow for use of standard rebel tactics anyway.

I thought to give limited range to the Rebel (or Empire's hyperdrive capable such as the Defender) starfighters. Maybe as long as there is room on the escort carrier in a particular sector, then they could conduct raids within that sector's system of planets, but they would have to return to their carrier as a base; and if it is destroyed, they would hyperdrive back to a friendly nearest Rebel planet somewhere else.

Your two ideas are pretty damn good... I'll need to mull it around and see how well it can be balanced but so far I like it. It would really make the game FEEL more like Star Wars.

Technically this would be darn-near almost impossible. Even the next closest system is a couple of days travel (one-way); ever been cramped up in a starfighter (or car for that matter) for a couple of days? It isn't a pretty sight. But, given the limitations and scope of the game, I think it would be a good game addition. You could pick hyperdrive-capable starfigthers just like you would pick spec forces for a mission, and would have to pick a "target" (any unit, other than capital ships and characters; and can NOT target other "missions"). If the starfighter mission is "undetected" then it would go off like any other spec mission (success-target destroyed, partial success-target damaged, failed-no damage). If the starfighter mission is "detected" then it would go off like any other tactical combat (just without the capital ships for the "mission" team), then the mission has a chance to "fight it out" or "abort". "Aborting" the mission has obvious results. Should you "fight it out" and win, then there would be a "bombardment" check of the starfighters vs. the target (just like orbital bombardment; and don't forget the GenCores if they are present!).

 

This would give the extra option of targeting units if you didn't have spec forces in the area. Starfighters are definitely more expensive (in raw materials & maintenance) than commandos/infiltators, but they would be quicker to get "on target" and capable of their original roles (fighting capital ships & starfighters).

 

After reading about a rotating galaxy, I was reminded of the starmap in Privateer 2. In order to navigate the galaxy, you were required to open a starmap, this starmap was a 3d pretty much cube. You could rotate the cube by holding down shift and click-dragging it. This could be an idea for rotating the starmap of Rebellion 2, especially if you made it 3d. Though, this would probably be pretty resource consuming and difficult, though if Privateer 2 could handle it, I don't see why not. It was a pretty simple image.

 

That being said though, the starmap in that case consisted of very small stars and planets, in that format, they would not be able to show the resource/ship etc. information that you may want. But, I was just throwing an idea out there .

Hrmm. I built Reb2-3D with a class that could likely do just that. It wouldn't be resource consuming though if I can find a way to JUST move the camera orientation. It will be a bit of a brain burner though... I'll keep this in mind as I develop the 3D stuff. For now I've got a lot of interface to finish

I haven't played Privateer 2, but I've played/seen other games that do this for viewing/traveling purposes only, and think this would be a nice addition. I definitely do NOT like the idea of a rotating galaxy during game play (it's only a distraction and waste of computer resources). Even if the games lasted years (in game time), the galaxy rotation would be nil; so why bother. But it seems that might be a moot point; just wanted to get my two bits in.

 

While I am on that topic, though, here's a little sneak peak at RebEd2:

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/597/rebed2.th.jpg

Just Planet System creation and Planet placement for now. A considerable amount more to come, though.

Oooowww! There's a system named after me!

[steel]

Looking good David.

 

Had some really tough months for a bit there so I had to put my project on the backburner. Back now and intending to give it a good go. I haven't done incredible amounts but what I have done Ill give a quick upload for people to look at. I am thinking about restarting because I have learnt alot the first time through about SceneManagement and the direction I will need to take with some stuff.

 

There isn't any actual gameplay and half the graphics are just place holders so don't get excited. Its more just to show I did work away at this for a couple months and I will be picking up again.

 

http://rapidshare.com/files/252913817/Rebellion2_0_5_0_1.rar.html

 

Required I believe is Microsoft .NET 3.5(http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=333325FD-AE52-4E35-B531-508D977D32A6&displaylang=en) and XNA 3.0 redistributable(http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=6521d889-5414-49b8-ab32-e3fff05a4c50&displaylang=en)

 

On an excited note, MS released XNA 3.1 which has enhanced sounds as well as including Video Playback as a part of their API. Very happy as when I have finished the game I intend to make proper movie cutscenes as per original star wars using high resolution and good quality lighting.

 

PPS. Has everyone seen the Star Wars The Old Republic Storyline trailer. Very good watch.

[Slocket]

I got it to work. It looks clean and professional. I like your approach of simplifying the planet information boxes.

 

I see your going 3D for the planets, which is very nice touch. I seen something like that in Free Orion. Gives the game more of a real galaxy feel.

 

Good job so far!

[steel]

Much appreciated the feedback Slocket.

 

I'm really annoyed with myself as I can't find my little A4 book of design ideas and I have no idea where I was going with the clickable planets and how to display information. Not to mention what I was going to work with next. I remember getting annoyed with trying to make the icons for fleets troops and character clickable even though it was fairly easy to get the planets to be selected. One of the fallbacks of my bad SceneGraph design.

 

I think I will fire up Rebellion and FreeOrion again to get the ideas flowing again. Maybe go buy another book and restart my design ideas. Obviously, it would make more sense to do it on a word document but I find it easier to draw what I want and label in pencil and paper

 

Are you still working away Slocket on yours?

[Slocket]

Yes I am still working on my remake. I did most of the work back on November 2008, but then I realized that using the DarkBasic Pro engine compiler is not very effecient in producing an EXE binary compared to VC++ Microsoft or other popular compilers.

 

So I figured out you can use ordinary C++ with a newer DB version (literally it will compile under Microsoft's free Compiler!). Thus I can achieve much faster speed using their more effecient compiler High level language to Binary.

 

Plus I had to use some tricks of the trade to speed up the computations with the 3D engine models, sounds, random stuff, laser shots, explosions, book keeping for the complex 'StarFleet Battle' damage system I am using.

 

I discovered if a person wants hundreds of ships and thousands of fighter squadrons and not bring the FPS to a crawl, there are ways that a CPU does not have to compute every thing every frame per second. I am skipping code loop that the normal human eye cannot see any way, and to cheat on math routines using a simple look up table for say trignometry in 3D vectors ( my version of a poor man's but high performance DirectX). Psuedo random numbers for RANDOM function, etc.

 

So I went back and rewrote alot of the code, and my gosh it will display hundred ship battle now without slowing down. I should mention that models that are far away I use progress less polygon model like the original did. Close up very high detail, medium distance I use what the artist made here on this website and low poly ( a convertor I found) low detail poly for far away. Make for a very cool zoom in high detail ( I need to get permission from artist off the web to use those movie quality models) then zoom out for the over all action.

 

Of course this version of the game you should not have a dozen Imperial Star Destoyers over every planet, it goes against my design. Each ship is precious resource and you should be using your heroes and agents on missions, very important. I do not want a 300 hundred ship spam fest anyway.

 

After looking at what your doing for your GUI, I think I should have an option to remove the original games artwork background so people can see more. In fact, that 3D galaxy style instead of the 2D of the original would have been a nice idea. Where a person can zoom in like in Sins of a Solar Empire, but zoom out for the overal tactical.

 

Too late for this version, I need to stay on target to get something released for an alpha demo to see how it will work on others OS and computers. I am too far into the design to back track now. Maybe in future I can make a 3D worlds galaxy and use the cannon galaxy map to zoom in and out. I still have the 3D battles in space and let me say, it is pretty darn good and I have not seen anyone make a decent AI and 3D battles like this, it is more than Homeworld but that was long ago and no company is making a true 3D space battle game with any decent level of strategy ( google "StarFleet Battles": complex ships and crew, not "simple minded ships with a small health bar go boom").

 

After this project, I would like to make my own original game using what I learned. I have to eat too.

 

Worlds at War:...cliche.

Galactic Wars:.....sounds like Star Wars.

Heroes of Fallen Empires:...hey original...Heroes of Might and Magic.

Null Space.....Was ist das? Another RTS shooter?

Galactic Core....OK bad Sci-Fi movie.

 

Battlecruisers in Love?

[Evaders99]

Very cool on the optimizations.. and yes, I love the Sins of a Solar Empire-style 3D maps.

Worlds at War and Galactic Wars sound too generic. Please don't do any "___ in ____ Empire" - really sounds too copycat

 

I think you'll mull over it for a while, but find something unique and not derivative for a cool project name

[steel]

I'm hoping to allow people to have the screen as it is in my current situation. Pressing tab should bring up an overlay similar to the original Rebellion map where you can see the state of the galaxy. Similar to Sins of the Solar Empire, I will be allowing you to switch between the main map where you do your buildings and what not, and the tactical map where you have your battles. Allowing you to bring in reinforments Sins style but still having the full 3D effect of the battles. HOPEFULLY

 

I will see what sort of requirements that will take. I assume you use some form of mesh instancing to allow so many of the ships?

[Slocket]

Yes, mesh instanceing is very important. I call it "cloning". A person uses one mesh model and that is in memory RAM then the hundred ships based upon that model can be instanced pointing at that spot in memory so you do not use up 100x of RAM. You can give each one its own texture, again pointing at it. In DB it is simple, too simple so I change it so I can keep track of the book keeping. I think this is why in object oriented language they uses Classes? I do not know why they make such simple logical process so complicated.

 

load object "ISD.x",11

instance object 1000,11

 

that will make one memory for ISD model (it can have its own texture or you can add it externally, such as if you want to show a seperate damage texture as it is being destroyed). Then I create a clone (instance) of that mesh or model called object 1000 here. I get really lost fast using those numbers that DB likes to use. So I do this create arrays to numerate all the ships you will need of that class, then the name of that array tells what it is so I do not get lost.

 

`declarations of Ship Meshes numbers DB assumes Integer. Basic not C++

 

VSDMesh=10

ISDMesh=11

SSDMesh=12

 

`constants declarations

`start number of ISD mesh objects from 1000 to 1500

 

ISDMeshNumStart =1000

ISDMeshNumMax=500

 

`declare Array to store ISDMeshObjects

 

DIM ISDMeshObjects(ISDMeshNumMax) as integer

 

` number of ISD Ships mesh for battle get from code

 

ISDMeshNumBattle=ISDNumBattle

 

`create ISD Ship meshes array objects for battle

 

load object "ISD.x",ISDMesh

For i=1 to ISDMeshNumBattle

instance object ISDMeshObjects(i),ISDMesh

Next i

 

Well, it is short hand and not complete but you get the idea. sadly DB is limited to 64,536 =2 ^16 I think for objects. You can have the same number of textures seperately, and also the same number of sprites seperately. So as you can see, if I had say 100 space ship models, and nothing else, no planets, no laser fire, no astroids, I am limited somewhat to a maximum of 500 here gives 500*100= 50,000 objects numeration leaving very little flexability. So I need to change my arrays sizes dynamically on the fly. I can not really just say 500 as a constant.

 

Of course I am not going to use 50,000 ships and fighters in battle, so I need to adjust those maximum constants for making the Arrays on the fly so I can take advantage of the fact I know going into batte if I am going to need 1000 ISD, or no ISD and say 2000 TIE fighters. I need to generate the numeration adresses for the array dynamically so I do not hit that 65,536 limit. That is one annoying thing about Dark Basic. The object numerations.

 

So, yes I do use memory instances for the short answer. But in the future I wish to learn a more formal programing language to keep the book keeping mess of DB away. I think maybe that is why they created Classes and types. But this DB was a fast neat way to get a understanding of what it takes to get a game together. The overall picture. Sadly DB would be too limiting for a large scale project I think. Great though for pocket rocket games.

 

I think it maybe be amazing what I could ring out of DB pro though. It did take alot of hassle coding it around those numbers.

[steel]

I find the biggest problem with having a 3D System View is travelling long distances.

 

The only way I can think of solving this is by

a) having routes between planets as this would keep long distance scrolling to move fleets down

b) going back to the 2D window form of Reb1.

 

Inout and ideas much welcome at this point please

[Evaders99]

Sins implements travel paths between planets and a mouse-scroll zoom so you can get from/to anywhere by zooming to the appropriate area. There is also a side-window list which has everything in icons (though I don't necessarily prefer this method).

This interface is still much better than the 2d window management in Rebellion, but of course more complicated to code.