Rebellion 2?

[AirBreather]

I thought I'd weigh in on some of the legalities of a re-creation of SWR.

 

Disclaimer:

I am not a lawyer or in law school (yet). Please view my comments as suggestions, not statements of fact. I claim no responsibility for actions based on my input should it be faulty information. I provide links to websites for everything that I say below. My input is the subjective interpretation of the information contained on the links included. Having had no professional legal training, my input is valued no higher than anyone else's on this board or anywhere else. The only assured value of this post is the inherent value in the links provided.

 

Having said that, I can weigh in on some of the copyright aspects of your project.

 

The first question here is whether or not your project is a "derivative work" (as defined on http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.html#derivative of the original Star Wars: Rebellion. If it can be found that it is a "derivative work", then the rights to produce it are held by Cool Hand, Interactive (see a few paragraphs down).

From the U.S. Copyright Office:

Any work in which the editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications represent, as a whole, an original work of authorship is a derivative work

Does your project "represent, as a whole, [star Wars: Rebellion]", i.e., does your project create a program that is identical to Star Wars: Rebellion?

My answer: this project is not a derivative work. This project does not use any of the source code from Star Wars: Rebellion, but rather uses code developed independently of the original in an attempt to recreate the concept of the game. Copyrights do not apply to the idea of the game, but to the game itself (source code). Having found no registered patent for Star Wars: Rebellion, it can be safely assured that there is no dispute on the project as a whole.

 

A reference page for the copyright issue can be found, too. I can't provide a link to the entry due to the nature of the site (URLs for entries are session-based) but search for Registration Number PA0000930410 on http://cocatalog.loc.gov and you will find the copyright record for the original game. This page says a lot about this topic, but pay attention to the lines that say "Authorship on Application", "Previous Registration", and "Basis of Claim". These lines say, respectively, "Who is allowed to make a 'derivative work, including computer programs & audio-visual materials'", "What pre-existing material is used in the making of this work", and "What this new copyright covers".

 

Next: trademarks. Characters such as "Luke Skywalker" and "Darth Vader" are registered trademarks of Lucasfilm, and use of them can be infringement. However, in my honest opinion, two elements of the trademark test (Marketing channels used, Defendant's intent on selecting the mark) that I believe is used (http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/metaschool/fisher/domain/tmcases/amf.htm for precedent) jump at me as saying that you are allowed to use the marks for your project. Specifically: You are not marketing your good along the same or parallel channels as Lucasfilm marketed any of its products that bear similar marks, and your intent in using the marks is to provide a free game, not to exploit the marks for profitability of a commercial product (I assume ). There are other elements of the test that say that lead me to believe that your work does not infringe.

Therefore, using the characters, ships, planets, etc. is acceptable without having us send "Emperor Plarpadine" to go on a recruitment mission on "Chorus Haunt" and come back with "Pthrawwn"

 

In conclusion

Your project does not violate copyright, trademark, or patent laws. Respectively, the source code is original, it does not seek commercial value, and as there is no patent registered to this software.

 

Again, I am not a lawyer or law student. Interpret the information from the links that I provide as you will. My entire post should not be seen as legal advice, but rather as informative about the issues raised with a project such at this. I just wanted to add what I can to this project.

[Moribundus]

I'm no expert on law (especially US law), but I believe there are some flaws in your assertions.

 

The first question here is whether or not your project is a "derivative work" (as defined on http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.html#derivative) of the original Star Wars: Rebellion. If it can be found that it is a "derivative work", then the rights to produce it are held by Cool Hand, Interactive (see a few paragraphs down). From the U.S. Copyright Office:

Any work in which the editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications represent, as a whole, an original work of authorship is a derivative work

Does your project "represent, as a whole, [star Wars: Rebellion]", i.e., does your project create a program that is identical to Star Wars: Rebellion?

 

Full definition of derivative work can be found here: 17 U.S.C. § 101

 

A “derivative work” is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a “derivative work”.

 

So this basically means that any remake, sequel, novelisation, etc. is derivative work of the original. Also "to represent" something does not necessarily mean "to be identical" to it, and Cool Hand has been merely granted the rights to pruduce derivative works by Lucasfilm, who still makes the big decisions.

 

Copyrights do not apply to the idea of the game, but to the game itself (source code).

 

Software is an intelectual property as a whole, not only a partially (eg. only code). Besides software may consist of other parts as well - audio and visual art, script, overall design, etc. So copyrights actually apply to the idea of the game.

 

Having found no registered patent for Star Wars: Rebellion, it can be safely assured that there is no dispute on the project as a whole.

 

No it can't Patents are related to inventions and software is not one (algorithms are). You cannot patent your program, but you can patent the way it works. So it's no wonder, there's no patent on SW: Rebellion And you cannot assume that something doesn't exist just because you weren't able to find it. Copyrights actually do not have to be registered to be valid (according to Berne Convention).

 

Next: trademarks. Characters such as "Luke Skywalker" and "Darth Vader" are registered trademarks of Lucasfilm, and use of them can be infringement.

 

More importantly Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are both intellectual property of Lucasfilm and using them is an infringement. It's like writing a Harry Potter lexicon.

 

Well, let's sum it up. My guess is that the only ones who can create a Rebellion sequel or remake is Cool Hand and Lucasfilm. The rest of us is just infringing upon GL's intellectual properties

Just to make sure we know, where we stand

[DavidAdas]

Well, all these things are true. And indeed, if we get pressed, we'll simply change the names and the characters and let you mod them back in or something close to legal.

 

But yanno... none of us would mind working with LucasArts to get this game out. It seems like a lot of companies are making these free to play games nowadays (of course, with in game ads, which would not be fun) but still. I like to think that something could be worked out with them. It's not like we're trying to damage their reputation or anything.

[DavidAdas]

Hey guys!

 

Just wanted to update you all. Game is still in the works. I've spent almost all my spare time on the game.

 

I'm getting to the point where I'll soon be able to release a good part of the game. It'll just be the interface (along with the source code finally) but hey! The interface is looking really sweet so far so get excited. I know I am! Some sweet animation with this!

[Slocket]

That is good news! I am eager to see what it may look like. It is alot of work to make a game, I am curious to see how others are doing it. I assume your group is using the more proper, and complicated for me, code language.

 

I wonder what it looks like in a real code language. What I am using is basically Basic and not very powerful. But please share your work, as far as it goes. You maybe be the one that actually gets this/ or a version of Rebellion finished before next year. That would be a nice Christmas present.

[Arcanewinds]

I love you forever for even just attempting this, please keep trying.

[DavidAdas]

Don't worry, I'm still working on it

 

At least 3-4 hours every day as well. I was hoping to have something done sooner but boy, the interface sure has been a real challenge!

 

I've posted a new update on the blog: http://swrebellion2.blogspot.com/ As it stands now, I'm very close to having something releasable. Nothing with any real gameplay to it but that's to come once this interface is like 20% done. Hey, that rhymed! Hot damn.

[DavidAdas]

Okay. I must admit guys. I had originally left the source code at home for about two weeks when I moved back on campus.

 

Learned a valuable lesson: don't store everything important on an 8GB flash drive alone (btw they are on sale at Staples for $29.99).

 

I've started up again though. Just thought yall might want to know

[DarthTex]

I was hoping you would be done already!

 

Keep the updates coming

[DavidAdas]

Sadly it's no wheres near completed yet

 

We've been trucking through the interface which has, by all means, been the hardest part thus far. It took me two days alone just to get the right click menus to work properly and to get the tick counter to pause and such.

 

Next we will have to finish the real-time fleet battle stuff. Then the game's AI. Then make network it. We're coming along but it likely wont be finished this year. It will be finished though, believe it

[Arcanewinds]

Hows it going on the project?

[DavidAdas]

It's coming along for certain -- but it has slowed down. I'm down my best coder and I've been slammed with mid-terms.

 

On the bright side I may be picking up an even better coder and exams end this week so we'll see what happens! I'm going to go ahead at this point and release what I have so far in a new thread. Maybe that will help drive some additional support, hrm?

 

But as I said. I will never stop working on this project. May get put behind but honestly (and truthfully) it will be good to have in a portfolio when I apply to Bethesda or wherever else I want to go. I'd say apply to LucasArts but they are outsourcing their games now. *Sigh*

[Moribundus]

But as I said. I will never stop working on this project. May get put behind but honestly (and truthfully) it will be good to have in a portfolio when I apply to Bethesda or wherever else I want to go. I'd say apply to LucasArts but they are outsourcing their games now. *Sigh*

 

IMHO Java won't do you much good, since no company I know of uses it for game development. AFAIK the only thing closest is Obsidian and they used C# .NET for their NWN2 tools. Game development is still mainly about C++ and this probably won't change anytime soon. Java for XBox? PS3?

 

Just a friendly advice

[DavidAdas]

'Cept for every cell phone game in existence and the fact that some of the top game engines still support it

 

That aside, who does and who doesn't use a programming language is entirely irrelevant. I think it's funny you even mention that, because there were quite a few programmers who initially laughed at C++, pointing out that most programmers should stick to the more popular variety... C, Fortran, Cobol, Basic, Haskell, et cetera.

 

But in all honesty, we greatly weighed this decision already. We'd all prefer C++ to be sure, but honestly, it didn't make much sense. Let's face it, Rebellion is a window-heavy game. Java is the best choice for this, especially considering how easy it is to build said menus. Secondly, Java's fluid 3D model implementation and manipulation classes are very fluid and are very under-appreciated. There's a lot it has that C++ does not without the use of an engine. Oh, and don't even let me get started on the portability.

 

So all-in-all, we stand by our choice. Our game will turn out fine and totally enjoyable with or without the use of C++

[Moribundus]

'Cept for every cell phone game in existence and the fact that some of the top game engines still support it

 

Not entirely true. You have many mobile games not written in Java (eg. games for Symbian, Windows phones). Also name me "a top engine still supporting Java". Does your Bethesda (using Gamebryo) write games in Java? Or LucasArts? Valve? iD soft? Crytek? StarDock (sins)? Electronic Arts? Get real.

 

You must have misunderstood me. I was talking about Java (not) being useful in a portfolio if you'd want to apply for a job in the game industry. I mean you've already been looking for a summer job in the industry, haven't you. 90% of ads (for a programming position) require you to have x years of C++ programming experience. The only exception is mobile games development of course (J2ME ), but I suppose that's not what you meant by mentioning LucasArts or Bethesda.

 

About you choice of language: it all gets down to what you are trying to achieve. If you want to make casual game, Swing is ok. If you want a game that can stand toe-to-toe with games like Sins or EAW, then Swing is not the best choice.

 

Oh, and don't even let me get started on the portability.

 

If you don't know how to write for multiple platforms (C:\not working, case insensitive names, etc.), then portability is just an empty word. So don't get me started on portability.

[DavidAdas]

We are only using swing for a portion of the game. The space combat is on an entirely different system altogether. In fact we have it loading our models fine. It's just that we've been focused on other parts

 

And no, I never intended to put this into my portfolio -- this is just a side project Actually, now that you mention it, I'm actually going to Rockville, MD in two weeks to assist Bethesda in their ex post facto launch of Fallout 3. I'll continue there until the next semester begins and return in the summer. And one of the other guys will be working at: http://www.jenzabar.net/about_jbar/about_jbar.html this summer, and damn it if Daniel doesn't get picked up by Google at the end of the year.

 

That's why we like working on Rebellion, though. We're actually doing this for the fun of it as opposed to doing this to appease someone else

[DavidAdas]

We are looking into http://www.jmonkeyengine.com/ this right now for the 3D aspects of the game.

 

There's some errors in their code that have shied us away from it, but we still might just use it and correct the code ourselves. We'd prefer to just build with what java already has but that might take too long for us. We'll be graduating soon so we're trying... well, I am trying... to keep this in mind before that happens.

 

jME also doesn't have much in the way of object behavior, either. We might just end up integrating C++ into the 3D portion, we aren't sure yet. Personally, I'd love to do this in DX10 and then use the Ageia engine to do some freakin' sweet stuff! We still just might

[Moribundus]

And no, I never intended to put this into my portfolio -- this is just a side project Actually, now that you mention it, I'm actually going to Rockville, MD in two weeks to assist Bethesda in their ex post facto launch of Fallout 3. I'll continue there until the next semester begins and return in the summer. And one of the other guys will be working at: http://www.jenzabar.net/about_jbar/about_jbar.html this summer, and damn it if Daniel doesn't get picked up by Google at the end of the year.

 

But as I said. I will never stop working on this project. May get put behind but honestly (and truthfully) it will be good to have in a portfolio when I apply to Bethesda or wherever else I want to go. I'd say apply to LucasArts but they are outsourcing their games now. *Sigh*

 

And what was this about then? Honestly and truthfully? Rubbish. You might try getting job in a PR department of Bethesda, you'd fit in quite well.

 

Personally, I'd love to do this in DX10 and then use the Ageia engine to do some freakin' sweet stuff! We still just might

 

So much for portability, this will reduce your Reb2 to Vista only. What do you need DX10 for, anyway? Volumetric particles? Procedurally generated ships? Procedural particle systems? Can't think of much more. And physics in space (in a SW settings)?

 

You should probably do less talking and more reading.

[Evaders99]

Alright, this is a topic about DavidAdas Rebellion2 project. No need for flaming.

It's his project, so let him do it his way.

[DavidAdas]

Yes, thank you.

 

Now! Sectors are all but completed. As Evaders noted earlier, he'd prefer to see Rebellion 2 with far less windows. We've been keeping this in mind and we will be looking into how to do just that.

 

If there are any ideas, please post them.

[Moribundus]

Alright, this is a topic about DavidAdas Rebellion2 project. No need for flaming.

It's his project, so let him do it his way.

 

Sorry I got a bit carried away.

 

Yes, thank you.

 

Now! Sectors are all but completed. As Evaders noted earlier, he'd prefer to see Rebellion 2 with far less windows. We've been keeping this in mind and we will be looking into how to do just that.

 

If there are any ideas, please post them.

 

Check out the other threads. Something similar is already being discussed I believe.

[Eagle]

Actually, now that you mention it, I'm actually going to Rockville, MD in two weeks to assist Bethesda in their ex post facto launch of Fallout 3.

 

Cool! Than push these guys forward! They shall hurry up. Im really in need for another Fallout part as long as it offers good quality like part 2 did.

[Slocket]

About the Rebellion 2 project DavidAdas, how do you see all 200 planets within the main window? Are you going to have to scroll the map around to see the whole galaxy?

[DavidAdas]

Oh don't worry! The planets are back into sectors where they belong and just as they were in the original. I was just finishing the planet classes at that point.

[DavidAdas]

So long time no post, right? Don't worry, I've still been working plenty on it In fact, plenty more than usual.

 

Okay so this is what's going on. We've decided to go ahead and begin work on RebEd2 (as we're calling it at the moment). The reason why is this -- it's too big a pain in the rear to set each sector and each planet in each sector by hand. Secondly, we're trying to come up with more ways to get you guys involved. This way, we've got all you non programmers out there covered!

 

And thirdly, I'm doing this because I don't know for jack exactly where each planet is actually supposed to go. Rebellion kind of had it all wrong -- which I didn't realize until after I had set up the galaxy exactly like the old game had it. So!! This gives us a chance to correct their original mistake. How does this sound?