Some things aren't logical...

[Jahled]

Than this obviously couldn't´t happen.

 

Arf! It's just a drone, clone's are human! They can bang their heads as well. Poor git probably had the piss taken out of him all evening in one of the bars on the Death Star all night..

[Eagle]

Oh, what an old thread.

 

Anyway! Just have found something from the Master himself that feeds my thesis, that not all Stormtrooper were clones:

 

... the idea is that over time, there were new clone strains introduced, and then they even conscripted guys to be Storm Troopers. So it's not just purely clones: It started out as clones, but then it got diluted over the years as they found out they could shanghai guys [more cheaply] than they could build clones.

 

... So then, if many of the Storm Troopers are indeed photocopies of Jango Fett, does that mean that when Boba was on Cloud City, he could have turned to any of them and asked them to take off their masks, only to find his dad standing there?

 

"Well, there's like a 50/50 chance," Lucas answered. "Not necessarily — he could be anybody, he could be the Mock 2 or the Mock 3, or he could just be some poor guy who got shanghaied."

(source: MTV.com)

 

You can read the entire interview here.

 

So some troopers have been shanghaied? Wow! I allways thought they were recruits. Not very clever if you want to have some loyal troops.

 

A note on Wookiepedia feeds another theory of myne:

Before stormtrooper armor was developed, the first stormtroopers used Phase II clone trooper armor after the transition from the Republic to the Empire. It is unknown how long this was the case. Later, distinct stormtrooper armor was developed.

 

During the first years of the Empire, the Stormtrooper Corps, still composed of only Jango Fett clones, were forced to remove the color designs on their armor, used to designate legion or corps affiliation, to which the clones had worn with pride while serving under the old Jedi Order. This was due to the new Imperial protocol of uniformity. Thus, the first stormtroopers returned to their previous appearance of stark-white armored soldiers. This tradition would carry on into the new stormtrooper armor, and to the armor of the Legacy era as well.

(source: Wookieepedia.com)

 

This theory was the base for my work on the Stormtrooper MK I-Card (which is not finished yet):

 

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4908/coruscantstormdy8.png

(source: 501st.com/chienworks.com)

 

On Wookieepedia they also told, that lots of people thought, after they´ve heard that the title for the new movie would be "Attack of the Clones", that the Clones would be the new threat for the republic. Which I also believed after watching the first trailer, were also a guy appeared, of which I thought was Boba Fett in a newer looking armour. Of course the movie told whole another story, allthough Boba was described in the "The Empire Strikes Back"-novell as one member of warriors, who once has been defeated by the Jedis.

 

Oh yeah, I´m a nerd!

[Darth_Rob]

Interesting. So it was a mixed bag of humans and clones.

 

As for shanghaied men, I suppose that if the Empire comes to your backwater planet and says "if you don't fight for us, that there Star Destroyer will blast your home to smithereens", you can't really say no. It's like the case with the scientist chick from the book series where Kyp Durron and the Sun Crusher first come in (too lazy to look it up). The female scientist (Qui something I think) doesnt like designing weapons for the Empire, but they have her family under threat. She doesn't have much of a choice. The Empire was just a really powerful and fear-inducing government.

[Jahled]

Wow! That's very interesting Eagle. Nice one for posting it.

[Evaders99]

The new Zahn book, Allegiance, does say that the Empire had to fill its troopers with recruits, as the clones lines were dying out.

[budious]

To fill your suggestion and explorer the complex sociology of star wars, the clone troopers were excellent soldiers from the movies where as a typical stormtrooper has less than a 5% accuracy rate. Despite their skills, the attitudes of Obi Wan and the other jedi reveals that many characters in the star wars universe consider clones taboo and shun their presence and treat them as second rate citizens giving their lifes a lesser value than a non clone.

 

Taking a look out our relatively modern history, that it would make sense to assume that clonetrooper and stormtrooper would remain segregated much as United States WWII units and Tuskegee Airmen of our time. I could speculate that to fill the deathstar with standard troopers in large quantities and keep the elite and expendable clonetroopers as ground brigades. Much as the Emperor eludes to in RotJ when he refers to having his best men on Endor waiting for Han's sabotage team.

 

Also, were clonetroopers extended freedoms to be discharged from service, to propagate their dna, or to live as normal citizens. Were they engineered to be sterile? etc. (aka Salt Peter)

[Eagle]

I don´t know how many times I´ve watched "Return of the Jedi" in about 24 years. A rough estimate of myne is about 50 to 60 times, maybe even more. Well, I just love that epic space-battle and the fights with speederbikes.

 

Anyway, allthough I´ve watched it that often, there´s still some scenes to discover. Last night I´ve watched that movie again. But this time on my PC. And look there what I´ve found:

 

A Scouttrooper without his helmet, who also seems to be a captive of the Empire.

 

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7080/pdvd121999tv3.th.png

(source: "Star Wars - Return of the Jedi")

 

Looks like they weren´t that sure about his identity.

 

He also doesn´t look like a clone. Isn´t it told that Vader´s 501st Legion, which only consisted of Fett-Clones, was on Endor?

[Darth_Rob]

That is a most interesting find. I'd say the logical explanation is that it was a Rebel trooper who stole the uniform, but I don't think that flies...

[Eagle]

It has to be that Scout who was left alone at the entrance of the bunker, after his comrades went away on their speederbikes to hunt that Ewok, who stole one of the bikes.

 

Edit:

I guess that the empire doesn´t tolerate any failure. So this poor guy would have been sent to Kessel to work in the mines, if the empire wouldn´t have been defeted. When I think back of the good old "Tie-Fighter"-Game, you have been sent there, when you´ve failed to win a mission. I don´t know how rebells use to treat their captives or their comrades, when they´ve failed.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/7223/pdvd117pd4.th.png

(source: "Star Wars - Return of the Jedi")

[Jahled]

That is a most interesting find. I'd say the logical explanation is that it was a Rebel trooper who stole the uniform, but I don't think that flies...

 

^actually there is another picture of this 'captured Scout trooper,' in rebel Endor-uniform out there on the net. Middle aged guy with a white beared.

 

Edit: http://www.tk560.com/endor2.jpg

[Eagle]

Ah, yes, the rebell commander.^^ But that Scout on the pic above hasn´t got any beard. I´ll try to make a better screenshot, where you can see him a bit clearer. Which won´t be easy though this scene is just about a second long.

 

Edit:

You were right, Jahled! It is indeed that guy.

 

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6510/pdvd118mr5.png

(source: "Star Wars - Return of the Jedi")

[Evaders99]

Probably someone didn't realize they were still running the cameras. Given that each of the movies ended up being over budget, they had to wrap up things fairly quickly. They took whatever shots they could and used them, cut them in as necessary.

 

I remember the whole "ewok falling down" bit was actually just the actor helping his fellow out after the scene was supposedly over.

[DarthTofu]

Could he be Bren Derlin? He shows up as the leader of the Strike Team (after Han, I assume).

 

Or perhaps he's Greeve? The picture isn't the best, but he appears to have similar facial hair... Just not as much.

 

Odd, you'd think that Lucas would've given everyone a name so that they could each have their own five dollar trading card...

[Darth_Rob]

Im gonna go through my Star Wars CCG collection and see if his face pops up. Decipher, the company that made the game, gave everybody and their brother a character card. If the face was seen for a nano-second in one of the movies, that being was given a name and brief biography on a card.

[DarthTex]

Could he be Bren Derlin? He shows up as the leader of the Strike Team (after Han, I assume).

 

Or perhaps he's Greeve? The picture isn't the best, but he appears to have similar facial hair... Just not as much.

 

Odd, you'd think that Lucas would've given everyone a name so that they could each have their own five dollar trading card...

Bren Derlin was played by John Ratzenberger, & that's definitely NOT John Ratzenberger

 

Greeve? Never heard of him. Besides, "Greeve" looks like the guy hidden behind Han in the original photo (you can only see his head right above Han's)

 

Try again Tofu

[Eagle]

It´s the 3rd guy on the left side of that pic which Jahled has posted. Maybe he was a stuntman and had to do several roles in that movie. Like that guy, who played Gunray and also Ki-Adi-Mundi in the same movie.

[JediHunter]

i had always noticed that guy and just assumed it was a rebel in disguise that was captured...

[Eagle]

I´ve just begun rereading Dune again. I guess it´s about the 3rd time so far. Don´t have to mention that it´s great. Than I came to that part of the story, where they discribed the origins of the Sadaukar-Warriors, the emperors personal elite-army. It´s said that there are legends that they are some kind of orphans who grow up on Selusa Secundus, a kind of hidden planet, where nobody´s allowed to fly to and where they are trained to be warriors. That´s where it started ringing in my head. So that´s where GL had his idea for the Clone-Troopers. Soldiers with no relationships at all raised and trained on a secret, hidden, planet.

[Eagle]

Have found another pic of that Scout Trooper without any helmet:

 

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/999/rebelbunkerrs2.th.jpg

(source: chienworks.com)

 

So you guys who said that it´s a Rebell Trooper disguised as Scout Trooper were right. Can´t remember that scene in that movie anyway. http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/konfus/a015.gif

 

Edit:

Though I couldn´t recall that scene I had to watch it again (not the whole movie of course, just the bunker-scene). That scene displayed above is missing, but you can see how that rebell officer is laying down his weapon to put on the Scout´s armour:

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/1246/pdvd132wp7.th.png

There you can see him putting on the helmet and taking the other scouts position in front of the bunker-entrance so that the other scouts who could return at any time wouldn´t argue:

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/7758/pdvd131ew5.th.png

 

It´s easy to miss that while watching it though the camera mainly is zooming on Han and the others.

[Guest Scathane]

The problem is that GL will be able to counter most of these discrepancies by means of saying that such parts of the story are still to come... In Star Wars: Origins for instance. In that light, I must say I haven't seen any discrepancies that cause real problems...

[Eagle]

To what exactly are you refering? Do you mean that in the original trilogie there weren´t that much discrepancies like there were in the Prequells? Than I totally agree with you. GL will allways have any explanations for every hole in a story, so you´d never can grap him.

 

Fan:

"In Star Wars Obi Wan Kenobi stated that he can´t recall that he ever had any droid. But in the Prequells you can actually see that he even had two. How can you explain that?"

 

GL:

"It´s the Force!"

[Guest Scathane]

What I mean is that one is always able to justify things afterwards. The convenient thing about your Obi Wan example is that he says he can't remember ever having had a droid... This means that it will be easy to craft a reason afterwards of why he put it in exactly those words: it's true as it's meant along the lines of if memory serves me right... Moreover, it can easily be argued later that Obi Wan only said he didn't remember but, in fact, lied...

[Evaders99]

Or that the droids were owned by the Republic military and not individual Jedi. Remember, Jedi aren't supposed to be attached to anything.

[Jahled]

I'm not wrong here in recalling at the end of Revenge of the Sith the captain of the Blockade Runner orders only C3-P0 to have a mind wipe?

 

This would of course allow R2-D2 to come out with whatever excuse he wanted to contact Ben, especially to some teenage farmer on some backwater planet..

[Eagle]

Wasn´t R2 ordered by Leia to go and find Kenobi? Of course that tiny droid was aware of nearly everything, but it can´t talk. Maybe they felt that R2 was more reliable than C3PO, who is able to talk in thousands of language.