The Muhammad Cartoon issue

[Jahled]

See the freedom everyone has to define Jesus as how they picture them? Why the double standard with islam and muhammed?

 

12/10. The exact point, and why should western society be tolerant of Muslims marching through places like where I live like London chanting 'Death to Freedom.'

 

Islam needs to calm down a bit. And get it's own house in order.

 

Again, no Hindus or Slavs making prats of themselves shouting loudly where I am at least.

[budious]

Islam needs to calm down a bit. And get it's own house in order.

 

Suppose we can at least agree on one thing.

[Evaders99]

I read an opinion piece that suggested for this brand of Islamic extremism to stop, the Islamic world needs to hit "rock bottom" - the people would experience even worse conditions of their own creation. When they no longer can blame anyone else outside, they must look into themselves and their problems.

 

Unfortunately with the world today, every nation's actions affects everyone else. No one could let the Islamic world go down into chaos

[AdmiralToguroAni]

Personally, they can draw Jesus and Mohammad frenching each other for all I care. Religion is nothing but a belief system, much like politics, so why not make fun of it? Freedom of speech is far more important.

[Guest Scathane]

I agree that the cartoons are targeted to mocking muslim terrorists. However, how many islamists do you see speak out against terrorists?

Virtually none... Then again, since we were talking about islamists, this is hardly surprising, is it? I do hear quite a few muslims speaking out against terrorism... Some of them live in the Netherlands...

 

The overall consenus of most islamic populations is to support the extremists. ie... the president of Iran

No, islamists force oppressed people to act as if they are.

 

...while I don't support a U.S. troop occupation of Iran, I will support George Bush if he decides to bomb the crap out of them. They have it coming!

Oh, puleaze! You won't support occupation but rather killing them all???!!! Tell me, when you say this, are you really surprised that Iran wants its own nuclear program?

 

See the freedom everyone has to define Jesus as how they picture them? Why the double standard with islam and muhammed?

Well, it's a long story but it has something to do with the fact that nations who are basically christian (i.e., the western world) decided that the promised land of the Jewish people was located dead in the middle of Palestinian territory. Another one could be that two of the largest western nations helped fuel a war between two major Muslim countries, namely Iran and Iraq. Oh yeah! And then there is the fact that people in Iran (and formerly Iraq and Afghanistan) are oppressed by their government, who tells them to burn flags and embassies and throws them in jail or worse if they speak up in a different way...

 

I read an opinion piece that suggested for this brand of Islamic extremism to stop, the Islamic world needs to hit "rock bottom" - the people would experience even worse conditions of their own creation. When they no longer can blame anyone else outside, they must look into themselves and their problems.

I am afraid that, however 'bottom' the rock is they will hit, islamists will always find a way to blame others...

 

Personally, they can draw Jesus and Mohammad frenching each other for all I care. Religion is nothing but a belief system, much like politics, so why not make fun of it? Freedom of speech is far more important.

Well, considering that roughly two-thirds of the earth's population believes in the existence of some higher divine power, you might be oversymplifying things...

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I dunno, Scath. I doubt I'm oversimplifying it. I'll wager 2/3s of the world or more is political, and a minority will be very upset if someone makes fun of their political ideology, much like most religious people are fine with having their higher power being poked at. Its the loud minority that draws the most attention.

 

Dress it up all you want, religion is nothing more than a belief system, and so there's no problem with taking potshots at it.

[Guest Scathane]

I dunno, Scath. I doubt I'm oversimplifying it. I'll wager 2/3s of the world or more is political...

Take a look at this. If I merely add up the three largest religions (christianity, islam and hinduism), I get to 4,300,000,000 believers approximately (since these are estimates). Considering the world population amounted to 6,450,000,000 at June 25, 2005 (according the the United States' Census Bureau), I believe this makes up for 67%...

 

...and a minority will be very upset if someone makes fun of their political ideology, much like most religious people are fine with having their higher power being poked at. Its the loud minority that draws the most attention.

I believe that the majority of religious group will be offended if their higher power is being poked at. However, I do agree that probably only a minority will resort to violence.

 

Dress it up all you want, religion is nothing more than a belief system, and so there's no problem with taking potshots at it.

A lot of blood has been shed over colliding belief systems, so it might just not be that easy...

[Jahled]

Just a quicky Scathe dude, but just because humans have the ability to think and thus create concepts such as a divine creator or whatever, and that most of them don't have the luxory of time to truely explore with this ability to think, this very belief system; it doesn't mean the majority are right does it? Of all the evangelical preachers who reap-in millions of dollers healing people and other wise performing miracles, I never seen or seen any documentation of one regenerating a lost limb. And outside of the mind what would be the differance?

[Evaders99]

Does anyone else feel that targetting a KFC to protest over Danish cartoons is ludicrous?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060214/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prophet_drawings

[Jahled]

Does anyone else feel that targetting a KFC to protest over Danish cartoons is ludicrous?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060214/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prophet_drawings

 

Utterly! The more this goes on the more pathetic the situation is panning out. From that article:

 

The Danish government has said it cannot apologize for the actions of an independent newspaper.

 

...is more or less what these hysterical mobs ranting the usual 'Death to America!' 'Death to Freedom!' or in this context' 'Death to bargin-buckets!'* can't grasp.

 

Pathetic. I'll take the opinions of mainstream Islamic people seriously when they stop behaving like this.

 

Bearing in mind how obviously 'sensitive' Muslims would appear to be, I made a satirical cartoon myself they shouldn't find offensive:

 

Let's Jihad Jahled!

 

*Edit: I may be wrong on this one

Edited February 14, 2006 by Jahled

[Mad78]

Actually the Catholics were exctly like this a few hundred years ago don't forget.

[Jahled]

Actually the Catholics were exctly like this a few hundred years ago don't forget.

 

So we tolerate it? People have lost their lives as a result of this bout of superstitious stupidity.

[Master_Xan]

It is my personal belief that there is no way to make Muslims and Jews get along, no way to make several of the Muslim groups tolerate Christianity or capitalism, no way to appease everyone all the time, and no good will come from trying.

 

The best thing to do is try not to get people killed, and when you have to step on toes try to step on more forgiving toes.

 

I'd be more sympathetic with the 'free speech' argument, except I really don't care about a comic, nor will it be the end of free speech if they apologize and ban the thing. Besides, it was a tasteless comic anyway.

 

On the flip side, I'd be more sympathetic with the Islamic world if they weren't shouting "Remember 9/11" and "Death to the Danish". Plus burning embasses, brandishing assault weapons and surrounding public buildings to fire them off (which, by the way, is exactly why Westerners view them all as terrorists in the first place). Of course not all of them are doing these things, but enough are, and the media makes sure we all know about all of them, giving the impression that most are.

 

Catholics mellowed out after awhile, and given enough time all "radical" religions do. Never mind that my personal belief is that Christ will come again before the Western world and Islamic communities get along, the same thing has to be done between now and then regardless: cooperation. The best option is, and always has been, to cooperate with the reasonable people, protect against the unreasonable, and eliminate the terrorists, all the while trying your best to not tick anybody else off (which would include not mocking their religion, even in a harmless albiet tasteless comic).

[Guest Scathane]

...it doesn't mean the majority are right does it?

No, it doesn't. But since we're talking about a majority, the situation just might be a little more complex than saying that religions are just belief systems which anybody can poke fun at...

 

Does anyone else feel that targetting a KFC to protest over Danish cartoons is ludicrous?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060214/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prophet_drawings

Not unless the KFC was in Europe and the protest would be about the bird flu..., but I guess that wasn't the case...

 

So we tolerate it? People have lost their lives as a result of this bout of superstitious stupidity.

No... but we might take into account that it took us a few hundred years to free ourselves of religious dogma... Looking at history, it is foolish to expect that suppressed Muslims will be able to free themselves in a shorter period of time. Of course..., you could argue that if we help them it could be sped up, but this meets some basic difficulties (as we can see right now)... You see, whether you like it or not, most western countries have a system of values and norms (which is a belief system as well!) on a Christian basis. What we must never forget is that there is a fundamental difference there...

 

The best thing to do is try not to get people killed, and when you have to step on toes try to step on more forgiving toes.

Good point!

 

...nor will it be the end of free speech if they apologize and ban the thing.

That is debatable at most, my friend... I for one, would highly object if the Dutch government apologized had it happened here, let alone ban them! Whether or not the Danish newspaper wants to apologize is up to them, but I don't feel they have to.

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I disagree about it being complex because the majority believes it. It may make them upset, but its still a belief system and nothing more. Our laws, which are based on Christian principles, are also a belief system, and if all of the "Dumb Laws" books being published in the US are any indication, they're fair game for mocking, too.

 

Just because many people believe it doesn't make it more complex. Consider:

 

1300: the majority of people believed that the world was flat.

The world is not flat.

 

We agree that the majority can be wrong, but as we can see above, the majority can also be flat-out-unmistakably-wrong. Just because they believed it didn't make it more complex. Perhaps HANDLING the problem is more complex, but what it is is quite simple. Religion is the same way. Its a simple belief system and nothing more, like our laws and politics. Thus, it should be mocked accordingly, no matter how many people get red in the face because of it.

[Master_Xan]

I disagree. Religion as a concept is simply a belief system, but in practice and reality, religion is so much more to the people who believe it. If you mock laws based upon a certain set of values, you're indirectly mocking the religion that formed those values, but to mock the religion point-blank is something else entirely.

 

For those who truly believe in their religion (myself included), making fun of it is akin to being slapped in the face. This is because religions become more then simply belief, but also a way of life. If you mocked my religion, you would be mocking everything I believe in, the way I live my life, and you would also be mocking me, because my religion is who I am to a large degree. When a group of people is mocking your religion, its more like being punched in the gut, repeatedly.

 

Of course, if you mocked my religion, I'd let it slide, not because it doesn't hurt, but because I'm so used to it and have been taught to not take offense. I also don't hold any single person up as proof of what an entire race, country, or other religion are like, so I'm not going to hold it against other people like you when they haven't done anything to me.

 

But consider the Islamic world. It is their way of life, and because most people in the area believe it they are not used to being made fun of. They also live in a society that doesn't teach against predjudice, nor does it teach tolerance very well. The result is all these people who truly believe (or are faking it, but same result) their religion, take offense easily, and are used to settling things themselves. Mock their religion, mock them, you might as well have punched them.

 

As a sidenote, for anyone who is wondering, I'm LDS (Mormon). Hence I'm pretty used to being made fun of. I also know what its like to have a way of life based on religion, whereas many people in the Western world do not. By this I mean the large number of people who believe their religion, but either do not practice it or the practice thereof doesn't entail any changes to their life.

[Jahled]

But consider the Islamic world. It is their way of life, and because most people in the area believe it they are not used to being made fun of. They also live in a society that doesn't teach against predjudice, nor does it teach tolerance very well. The result is all these people who truly believe (or are faking it, but same result) their religion, take offense easily, and are used to settling things themselves. Mock their religion, mock them, you might as well have punched them.

 

It's hard not to mock people who behave in such a pathetic manor as we have seen over the last few weeks. If someone is generally making a fool of themself, people tend to make fun of them. The syterical magazine inwhich the pictures were first published-it was not a comic btw- was probably echoing previous examples of Muslim protest at something or another. They appear angry at everything, have done for years, and react to everything in a completely over the top fashion.

 

I don't want to live in a society where people wave banners calling for the death of non-believers or whatever which i've seen here in London, and just wonder why it is that you with your faith can put forward a well constructed and intelligent point of view and the Muslim world cannot.

[DarthTex]

I had heard (this would require further research for confirmation) that the same cartoon(s) had been run 4 months previously in an Islamic country. There were no protests ... nothing. Time goes by. Now put it in a western (non-Islamic) newspaper and all hell breaks loose! Seems like the double standard is the standard (consistency is optional).

[Master_Xan]

I agree Jahled, it is hard to not mock people who act childishly. But that doesn't change the fact that we shouldn't mock people who aren't capable of taking it as a joke, or would otherwise react poorly. Just like you don't call your girlfriend fat because most girls aren't going to find it funny, especially if its true. Obviously, the Islamic community as a whole doesn't have the greatest sense of humour. Even though they aren't all terrorists, its a sensitive subject.

 

Unfortunately, newspapers and the media in general does an EXTREMELY BAD job of not offending people, and sensitive subjects are the ones with the largest bullseye.

 

I had heard (this would require further research for confirmation) that the same cartoon(s) had been run 4 months previously in an Islamic country. There were no protests ... nothing.

 

I heard this as well. Back in September they ran, though I heard it was in Europe and not an Islamic country. Some small group went nuts with it. Nobody else cared. The group ran around talking to various Islamic leaders, trying to get them worked up about it. Apparently they managed to succeed, if 4 months after the fact. But it would require some research, as I've only heard this by word of mouth (which is often more reliable then the media, but still take it with a grain of salt).

[DarthTex]

I found the article; the cartoons previously ran in Egypt.

 

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48746

[Mad78]

I didn't now that, very good find Tex.

[Defender_16]

Arab paper published cartoons 4 months ago;

 

No outrage when Egyptian publication headlined drawings on Ramadan cover

Wow. Good link Tex. Hmm.. what to say... oh yes.

 

Owned.

[Guest Scathane]

I didn't either...

[Defender_16]

Have heard of something far more serious than the Egyption Newspaper incident.

 

Try Google searching the key words; - Cartoon Muslim leaders meeting

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/02/11/MNGRCH6UQO1.DTL

[Guest Scathane]

You mean that the outrage may have been staged?