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Bush ~ State of Union Address


dinochick
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You speak (type) English very well for a cat. It must be very difficult to type with those claws!

 

You should shred Jahled's socks...that would teach him to talk badly of you on the forums!! :twisted:

 

:lol:

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.--Napoleon Bonaparte

 

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.--Robert McCloskey, State Department spokesman

 

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Going back on topic here you guys should realise that taking out Iraq will not make the middle east a safer place nor will it lessen the threat of a terrorist attack. The simple fact that the only governments which support an attack on Iraq are Britian and a few of the poorest Nato states should show you this. All without the support of their people I might add. If you do go in without clear proof that saddam has illegal weapons then your going to lose the support of half of Nato and most of the UN. That could make facing down North Korea pretty dodgy. But like somebody pointed out Koreas got no oil.
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We don't want to see your homepage.

 

God, you're ruthless on my little kitty-cat, give the guy a brake, he's new to all this internet-lark. I guess he'll get the hang of it. At the moment he's sitting behind me getting to grips with some James Joyce. :wink:

 

 

 

[/i]

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If they can present evidence which would stand up in a court of law, then i will support a war. Or, if ALL the leaders agree that there is sufficient evidence then i will support it.

Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine...

 

Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la

Not gone, merely marching far away

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You'll never get everyone to agree about anything. That's just a fact of life.

 

I think the proof has already been found, but is being interpreted differently by everybody. That's why some countries are convinced we need to go to war.

 

By definition, all the UN inspectors have to find is one little problem, and Iraq is in "material breach". They have found that in the documentation that Iraq has made missiles that can exceed the 150km range limit. Combine that with intelligence (from several countries, in fact) that Iraq has developed biological weapons produced in "mobile labs", has a nuclear weapons program, has recently had stockpiles of chemical agents, and you have a pretty good case.

 

Now, just take a look at normal Iraqi people...they are forced to vote for Saddam and his political cronies or they are maimed and killed. Saddam has even gassed his own citizens! His people go hungry and do without many of the things we take for granted while Saddam operates many palaces!!!

 

At the very least, Saddam Hussein should be ousted from power, and tried in international courts for human rights violations.

 

Of course, this won't happen without military "persuasion".

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.--Napoleon Bonaparte

 

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.--Robert McCloskey, State Department spokesman

 

Support the USA!

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That's a hell of a campaign tactic, isn't it?

 

"Vote for me!" says Saddam on a campaign trip.

 

"Who's he kiddin'? Nobody else is on the ballot, and these troops standing beside me while I vote are making sure I vote for Saddam or they'll kill me!" says Ahkmed, the rural Iraqi farmer.

 

"He killed 40 members of my family with nerve gas, but I'm voting for him...he's just so attractive with his big ass moustache!" coos Esmet, the sheep farmer.

 

8O

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.--Napoleon Bonaparte

 

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.--Robert McCloskey, State Department spokesman

 

Support the USA!

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Just FYI Saddam never gassed anybody who could be considered his own people, hes gassed Kurds in the north and Iranians in the east. The US cant really say much about him gassing Kurds as they're helping the Turks to slaughter the same people right now, and they were actually backing him in the war on Iran. Not to mention the fact that the US and UK were the main suppliers of NBC weapons to Iraq. Remember too that US imposed sanctions are responsible for the deaths of half a million Iraqi children alone. Which is worse, gassing people or starving them to death?

 

As for Saddam being popular most experts believe this to be true, and given the 2 main oppositions equal dislike of the US whoever is installed in Saddams place is going to have his work cut out.

 

For the record I'm not pro-Saddam, however I find it hypocritical that your saying what a bad boy he is when your own governments are responsible for the deaths of millions of Iraqis. I dont see anyone calling Bush snr, jnr, Clinton, Blair or Major to stand trial for warcrimes.

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. Remember too that US imposed sanctions are responsible for the deaths of half a million Iraqi children alone. Which is worse, gassing people or starving them to death?

 

Sanctions are not US imposed, my friend. They are UN imposed. And starving children in Iraq is not anyone's fault but Saddam Hussein's. If he cared anything about his "starving" population, he'd stop building palaces for himself and spend a little money on food and medecine. The United States has offered to give food and medecine to the Iraqi people...I wonder why that's not getting to them???

 

Please stop viewing Hussein as a "good boy". In case you didn't know, the "Kurds" are Iraqi citizens that are Kurdish ethnicity. Do you know why he gassed them? Because they are fighting for their independence. And does it matter who they are? Nerve gas is against the Geneva Convention, which all law-abiding nations signed to prevent human rights violations. I don't care if it was the Kurds or the Martians.

 

Yes, the US backed Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war. How many hostages from your country did Iran hold under threat of death? We were forced to back the lesser of two evils at the time. And where did you find information that the US supplied NBC weapons to anybody? If we supply weapons to anyone, its conventional only.

 

But where are we getting in this conversation? You feel you need to blame the US and UK for all the problems in the world, and no amount of persuading from me will change your mind.

 

We should probably go back to talking about Star Wars and leave the political agendas behind. Agreed? :D

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.--Napoleon Bonaparte

 

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.--Robert McCloskey, State Department spokesman

 

Support the USA!

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Um, Gank, that's like saying that me gassing Welsh people is okay because they come from another part of the country. And given that most of them were innocents, it doesn't even matter if they were Kurds, Iraqis, Americans, Armenians or Angels, it's still wrong.

Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine...

 

Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la

Not gone, merely marching far away

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I never said it was alright he was only gadssing Kurds, if you'd done your homework you'd know that the kurds are not currently under Saddams control so they couldnt possibly have voted for him. Therefore the statement above saying I'll vote for him even though he gassed my family is misleading. And if your so concerned about the Kurds why arent you complaining that your government is helping the Turks kill them for the past 10 years. So you cant really use helping the Kurds as an excuse to oust Saddam as they aren't actually under his control. And spare me the they're fighting for their independence guff, your governments are right now helping to kill them.

 

As for the Sanctions while they were originally passed by the UN security council the US is the only member (apart from the UK, who will say whatever the US wants them to say) who believes they should remain in place and is using its veto to block any proposal which involves lifting them. So it is fair to say they are US imposed as every other member wants them lifted.

 

Your country didnt just back Iraq in the war against Iran, the CIA asassinated the democratically elected leader of Iraq way back in 1957 and helped the Ba'ath party to power. So from the moment he entered office Saddam was an american ally and continued to be one right until he invaded Kuwait. And it has never been denied that the US sold chemical and Biological weapons to Iraq, a simple search on google should provide you with enough information on both of these subjects to make your own mind up on their truthfulness.

 

I never said I saw Saddam as a good boy, if you actually read my above post you will see I specifically stated I didn't, I just dont see your own governments as good either. I dont see them responsible for all the evils in the world however the ones I do see them responsible for I wont keep quiet about. You can try to persuade me otherwise but you cant change the facts.

 

Anyways the point of my above post was not to defend Saddam but to get across the irony of the fact that while your are sitting here saying how evil he is for killing his people your own governments are doing the very same thing. You can see the irony in that cant you? I do think Saddam should be got rid of, just not by the means being proposed or the people proposing them.

 

As for this not being the place, you are right in that, however I dont really see the harm in it, its not decended into a flamewar and its always good to hear somebody elses point of view, plus it makes you think. Be nice if a few more people joined in actually.

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How should he be removed then? The UN leaders ask him nicely to leave?

 

You're right that the US isn't perfect. But we haven't deliberately commited mass genocide.

 

If Saddam gets these weapons developed, he will use them to blackmail the Middle East as he did during the Gulf War. If the UN cannot use foresight and see this, then the US has no choice but to remove him.

 

All this anti-American sentiment is sick. They are using this war as a political rallycry against the US, while not providing any solution to removing Saddam. If you saw the special on Saddam's older son, you'll recognize that this regime needs to be removed.

 

12 years he has defied the UN... 17 UN resolutions.. and 1 ceasefire agreement. So what would you do? Capitulate and let him win, furthering his efforts to create weapons, or removing him before he can dig in and surround his weapons by cilivians?

Evaders99

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Evaders while you make some good points and I am in total agreement with you that Saddam should be removed from power , that said I feel the need to make it clear to you that this is not a veiw shared by the international community

1.) Apart from the US and UK governments no other country feels it is actually necessary to remove Saddam by force. It is quite clear that the only people who believe Saddam is a threat to world peace live in the US. And to put it bluntly who the fuck gives you the right to decide what sort of government someone else lives under?

2.) The US has delibirtaly commited mass genocide, million of Iraqis have died because the US is blocking the lifting of the sanctions on Iraq. Your government knows how many iraqis are dieing as a result of these and still blocks their removal, and we arent talking about thousaands of people here we're talking about millions. So before you go accusing Saddam of Genocide remember your own government has far far more Iraqi bloood on its hands then he does.

3.) In all fairness the whole point of putting weapons inseptors into Iraq was to prevent him from doing this. Those same weapons inspectors do not believe a war against Iraq is necessary so claiming this as a reason to oust him is a complete farce. Put it this way, you are not qualified to make a judgement on Iraq where illegal weaponry is conccerned, neither am I, Hans Blix and his team are and they have specifiaclly said that Iraq is not in breach of any UN resolutions.

4.) Anti american sediment? to be quite honest thats not what its seen as over here, its ANTI WAR sediments. You may choose to view it as anti american but the reality of the situation is it doesnt mattter what country is propagating it, its seen as wrong. If russia or North Korea wer ein the same position that the US is in now you would still see the same amount of people on the streets, in fact you'd probably see a lot more. Its not the fact that saddam need removing thats in question its a case of why do you think you have the right to do it.

5.) Dont make me laugh, do you know how many UN resolutions your own country has broke? Or how many Israel has? Seriously son, before you try to claim the moral high ground do a bit of research first.

 

There is a very large anti war movement going on these days, and while it is not Anti American at the moment it is only a matter of time before it becomes so. You do not have popular support in any country other than your own, if you had half a brain you would be asking yourselves why, instead you are accusing us of being anti american. The way your country is percieved by other peoples of the world is at an all time low, and the only people you have to blame for it is yourselves, you can say fuck the rest of us but please remember that without you allies in europe, asia and the middle east your country is in fact impotent.

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The way your country is percieved by other peoples of the world is at an all time low, and the only people you have to blame for it is yourselves, you can say fuck the rest of us but please remember that without you allies in europe, asia and the middle east your country is in fact impotent.

 

Well then while we are on the subject Gank, just remeber that Europe and part of Asia, ect would also be "fucked" as you put it if we hadn't been there to back your asses up so fuck you! :evil: With out us your country would also be "impotent"

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Dinochick I would be very glad to hear what exactly you are referring to when you say this, if you are refering to ww1 your country only got involved when it was almost over, if you are refering to WW2 which I think you are then its common knowledge nowadays that ww2 was lost for the Germans when they invaded Russia. Justfor your information Russia lost over 20 million dead during world war 2 while you own country lost a few hundred thousand. With that in mind you wont think it terribly rude if I thank the russians instead of you people would you? There is also the fact that the UK and US drew up plans to invade my country during ww2, so excuse me if I dont feel too grateful for your protection when its no secret that you were actually planning to annex my country. And if you are refering to your countrys protection of us from the communist menace then you are a gobshite if you think anybody on this side of the atlantic takes that seriously any more.

 

As for my country being impotent, my government has no interest in dictating to other people how they should live so in that respect we are as you pointed out impotent. Do we care? no. Have we ever asked your country to back us up on anything? no.

 

Dinochick you seem to have a very insular point of view, it would do you well to get out of the US for a wee while so you could see it from another persons perspective. I know you people like to see yourselves as the defenders of democracy and champions of the free world and all that but the reality is far far different. Please before you start giving us the sanctimoniuos shite about how you dont want to be the worlds policemen etc etc remember nobody fucking appointed you there in the first place.

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Question...

 

How can we remove Saddam without force?

Is it possible?

 

I think we're all in agreement that he has to go aren't we?

Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine...

 

Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la

Not gone, merely marching far away

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Theres also the question of who to put in his place. Not very many pro-US or UK politicians in Iraq, and the opposition partys in exile have specifically said they do not want the US to go in.
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Kermit the Frog.

 

It makes no difference. Whoever replaces Saddam is going to be a puppet of American/British/French/German/Russian business interests. And our glorious leaders are slaves to those business interests!

 

Meanwhile, young men have their guts shot out on behalf of fools in Bagdad, London, Paris and Washington.

 

The hypocracy is sickening. Carnage sucks.

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I can't keep up with you guys arguing more strongly on the Iraqi issue, partly because my own country isn't involved in it. Costa Rica and the rest of Latin America iis agaisnt the war for the more obvious reasons:

1. Influence on the future,oil prices will rise, some of our countries depend on it and any rise will undoubtly affect the economy pretty hard.

2. Some of our countries have been governed by puppet rulers. Latin America knows better than any other region sof the world what it's like to be ruled by the U.S. nicaragua, a land on the northern border of Costa RIca was ruled by Anastasio Somoza for a a very long time. He was a dictator at best a butcher at worst. Civilians were ruthlessly "silenced" and he also "took advantage" of the Nicaraguan money reserves. HE was on the pay-roll of the U.S., as one U-.s president put it: "Somza may be a son of a bitch, bu the is our son of a bitch."

The U.S. installed rulers or U.S. supported have unstabilized the region, Guerillas, Counter-Guerrillas, COunter-Counter Guerrillas, PAramilitaries. SOme of this governors installed to keep a check on the communist influence in SOuth America. Nicaragua became a WEst-East front in latin America. Nicaragua is now a poor land and more Nicaraguans are immigrating into our country.

Sure Saddam has to go, and the only ones with the right to do it are the Iraqis, no other country or government in the world can actually force him to go, and they are the ones to set up a government later.

In the last two centuries there has been little political evolution. Anarchism, Leninism and Marxism have become taboos, and because we are greatly influenced by the Western hemisphere he think of the Republic and Democracy as right goverments. But both of them are really old, Greeks had democracy, ROmans had a REpublic. No one had come up with new government forms, because tehre is no need for it, the ones sitting in the government won't start planning to overthrow themselves and found a new more functional government. There is no evolution in the governmental ideals and theories, that branch of human science has been athrophied.

Wardrums keep sounding, media keeps announcing a war as if were a movie. Gulf Wars Episode II: Attack of the Gringos. Then they state some facts.

I doubt sincerely that the war is to remove Saddam or to disarm Iraq, more than that the actual war is going on in Europe. London, Madrid, Rome vs. Paris, Berlin and Moscow. Poland and the "New Europeans" are inbetween, as well as the Scandinavians, Dutch, Ires, Belges.

In teh second half of the 20th century the U.S. economy ruled the world. WIth the Euro and the consolidation of a european"unity", there is a new rival to the dollar. The U.S. wants to rule the worlds, and therefore has to break the European unity. More than oil or safety for Israel and the entire world or to free the Earth from Saddam and his mustache, the U.S want to spilt Europe, perhaps even the Nato to ocntinue their world supremacy.

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Interesting. For someone who 'can't keep up' you seem to have a pretty good grip ofwhat's going on, and you do have an interesting perspective from your own circumstances. This is one of the things i'm most worried about. Even if we do go to war, and win, with a minimum of bloodshed and it's all good and has a happy ending....

 

....we'll be right back where we started in 50 years time. The instability created by a puppet government is lethal to a country, look at Afghanistan. The UN (or whoever), went in, did the job, got out, and gave them an election. Look at them now. Hardly any progress has been made. Where's all our aid money going? The situation in Afghanistan is dire at the moment. All the skilled labour is leaving, and extremeist groups are springing up all over the place. Peace has been restored, but for how long...? And at what cost....?

Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine...

 

Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la

Not gone, merely marching far away

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Gents...here is an interesting article about the current events in Iraq that may be worth reading:

 

http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/3453118?source=Evening%20Standard

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.--Napoleon Bonaparte

 

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.--Robert McCloskey, State Department spokesman

 

Support the USA!

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..emm...interesting post...you would think that the SAS/SBS could secure one of the ships with ease, thus securing the 'eveidance' Bush & Blair badly need in their quest to invade Iraq. If evidance is indeed found that suggests Iraq has tried to hide the WMD the UN has said it must declare to the inspectors it would be a damning indictment on the political wheeling and maneuvering amongst no less than fellow NATO members. You assume western intelligence agencies are co-ordinating and sharing their leads and information to fight the threat of Islamic terrorism. This is to say the French wouldn't have been in the dark about these three floating dreadnaughts. Hans Blix's team don't have a mandate to float the world's oceans looking for drums of anthrax on cargo ships. I don't understand.

 

Most confussed.

 

I think this is about the west's need to be in control of oil. I sincerely hope i'm proved otherwise. I'm looking forward to the invasion of China to liberate Tibet and the Chinese people from their fascist socialist scum of leaders. But that's just not going to happen is it.

 

 

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I'm looking forward to the invasion of China to liberate Tibet and the Chinese people from their fascist socialist scum of leaders. But that's just not going to happen is it.

 

I also wish that would happen Jahled! That is something that needs to be taken care of!

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