Clone Empire.

[SOCL]

I've been crap at spelling for 33 years, I see no reason to attempting to do so now.

No worries, too many years of Spelling and Language Arts teachers screaming at you and sending you to detention for not spelling "favorite" and "color" correctly (I used to spell it favourite and colour...as I type them, I worry a ruler will smack me over the head) will drill correct spelling into your head.

 

Try this: We have our cloned-shocktroopers, and we have our non-clone 'conventional' army soldiers. We also have an officer-elite supervising all.

I wonder, though, if the Empire has any clone officers left-over from the Clone Wars? Old generals, perhaps? If the growth-acceleration continues (which it probably does) and/or if Jahled's life-span idea is correct, then any clones would be way too old by even as early as ANH. I suppose the clone officers were there as stands-in until 'normal' could be recruited, trained, and fielded.

[Guest Scathane]

Although Stellar has some point with regard to the fact that Clones may have drawbacks, we have to take into account that, as far as I know, there wasn't any other real army in place at the time, save for the droideka's.

[SOCL]

Although Stellar has some point with regard to the fact that Clones may have drawbacks, we have to take into account that, as far as I know, there wasn't any other real army in place at the time, save for the droideka's.

This is quite true, which adds to my idea as to why the Empire does not necessarily have a huge force on the sort of galactic scale we would expect. I think that by equating a ratio of Earth-forces to galaxy-wide forces, we expect the militaries in Star Wars to be enormous, yet the opposite seems to be true. Again, as Scathane saids, according to all indictions (esp. the fact that the Galactic Republic--the most central government in all the galaxy--hadn't had an army "since the formation of the Republic", and even then, it probably would have been relatively small), the military forces as galaxy-wide, but not to the point where everywhere you turn you'll find a Star Destroyer. I think this is something the EU has got wrong in many places, especially the X-Wing novels where it seems there's always a frigate or cruiser or Star Destroyer around the corner waiting for our super-rogue-alliance-squadron to show up. In the movies we get the indication that the Empire did indeed have a large fleet ("With their fleet spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us..."), but that a rather nice portion of it showed up at Endor (Ackbar's exclamation of "It's a trap!", having gone from only fighting the Death Star II to being overwhelmed, which--though--could be attributed to the smaller, weaker Rebel fleet).

 

The way the Clone Wars were spoken of, though, it seemed as though the galaxy had not experienced such a military arms' race before or since, and that the Empire had filled the void, but not with as large a military force as the Grand Army of the Republic. This would also make sense from a political standpoint. If we take Palpatine's false declaration of "I love democracy", then we get the notion of a politician who knows how to manipulate the masses. By downsizing the military in the wake of the Clone Wars--the most bloody and devastating war probably up until that time--the masses might be inclined to side with Palpatine's New Order. By keeping a smaller fleet and surface forces--most especially the infamous image of stormtroopers--he would be able to control the galaxy where political manipulation could not do the trick.

 

Just an idea.

[Guest Scathane]

I think you just might have a point...

[Trejiuvanat]

The way the Clone Wars were spoken of, though, it seemed as though the galaxy had not experienced such a military arms' race before or since, and that the Empire had filled the void, but not with as large a military force as the Grand Army of the Republic. This would also make sense from a political standpoint. If we take Palpatine's false declaration of "I love democracy", then we get the notion of a politician who knows how to manipulate the masses. By downsizing the military in the wake of the Clone Wars--the most bloody and devastating war probably up until that time--the masses might be inclined to side with Palpatine's New Order. By keeping a smaller fleet and surface forces--most especially the infamous image of stormtroopers--he would be able to control the galaxy where political manipulation could not do the trick.

 

Just an idea.

 

Keep in mind that Palpy will turn the Senate and Galactic Opinion against the Jedi. It was a Jedi who started the political insurrections (Dooku) (most people won't tell the difference between a Sith or a Jedi) and that Jedi broke into the Chancellor's chambers and tried to arrest him.

 

Combine a galactic wide fear of the Jedi's abilities (especially after they've seen them in battle) with their recent role in politics and you'll ahve lots of people siding with Palpatine against the Jedi even if they do not fully endorse the New Order.

[Evaders99]

Yep, just a way to power. Once you've got them believing in a lie, you can sucker them into anything.

[Paul]

Actually rather than downsize after the Clone Wars Palpy did the opposite. Star Wars.com's description of the Empire states that Palpatine started on a massive military buildup like nothing the galaxy had seen before. This is from THE Official site and thus can be taken as canon. Not only does it say this in the description of the Empire, BUT Repeats it in the entry for Palpatine himself. The Empire conquered the known galaxy with the exception of the Corporate Sector and the Unknown Region. This took a massive military. Remember that each sector had its' own troops until Moffs and then Grand Moffs took complete control.-Grand Moff Conway

[SOCL]

This is from THE Official site and thus can be taken as canon.

Can it? Doesn't The Official site also contain matters pertaining to Thrawn and much of the EU, which we know not to be canon? As far as I have it understood, canon is the movies.

[Paul]

SOCL as Jahled says to each his own.-Grand Moff Conway

[SOCL]

SOCL as Jahled says to each his own.-Grand Moff Conway

I understand that, but I'm addressing a larger issue: Is the official site--StarWars.com--canon or not? I mean, sure it contains information from the movies, but it also contains information from the EU which, officially, is not canon. Sure, everyone can say this or that is canon, but the only official LucasFilm canon are the movies.

[Paul]

I am sorry that we seem to disagree, but I understand your point of view.I just accept more as canon than the films. The official site has what GL considers to be canon. In a couple of interviews over the past few years he has stated that the site has what he considers to be accurate info for fans interested in knowing background on things that they see in the films. You use Dr. Saxton I use the Star Wars site. Both places have info that may or may not be what we consider correct. I am happy with my SW world and I hope you are happy with yours. We probably will never agree on everything, but we do agree on many issues.-GM Conway

[Jahled]

Dude, one point that was broadly agreed upon with this clone-idea was that we don't use anything other than the movies as a point of referance to compose our arguments, given that so much of the EU is quite frankly childish when trying to compose anything with any resembalnce of reality. I had assumed we all agreed on this; it appeared so.

 

Ok then, this is canon: Darth Vader doesn't require food to exist. It appeared in some crap comic in the seventies so must be cannon. Also, General Veers got killed at Hoth, was in the book of ESB so must be Cannon. So there was another Veers during the assualt on Balmorra in Dark Empire. A mess isn't it. This is why reasoned arguments might want to ignore anything considered 'canon.' Most of it is so utterly daft.

Edited April 11, 2005 by Jahled

[Paul]

Jahled, as you have stated and I stated above-To each his own. Also a side note-check your e-mail for an answer to a question you asked me. I wash my hands of this whole discussion.-GM Conway

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

I think it should be noted that most people ignore Dark Empire as a complete load. Too many people look at the artwork and thing that everything there exists, but the art, as well as the story, was an artists spin on events. Pretty much every one ignores most of what is contained in there...

[Guest Scathane]

I always felt that the movies were canon and whereas the EU should have been as well but got too messed up, that starwars.com is a platform to bring the two closer together...

[Hitomi]

The Expanded Universe is the future of the Star Wars franchise, sooooo…

 

ALL HAIL C-LEVEL CANON!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Lucas has finally cleared up the Canon issue.

There are varying levels of canonicity now.

 

G-Level Canon is the highest.

Comprised of the movies themselves and everything Lucas determines personally to be G-Level.

C-Level Canon, or Continuity Canon, is almost everything else.

The books, games, comics, and the rest are in this cataegory.

 

As long as C-Level does not contradict G-Level, it is assumed by Lucas to have actual canon status.

 

Basically, the EU is canon until Lucas states otherwise.

 

Saxton is one of the best Star Wars analysts ever to grace the pages of the Internet.

His input on the ICS books and his personal site has cleared up a lot of contradictions in the Star Wars Universe.

 

 

As for Palpatine’s usage of the Clones and the Military…

 

Stover mentioned in the ROTS novel that Palpatine was just getting the major shipbuilders in the galaxy to ramp up production for a major military buildup.

Palpatine was planning on using Grievous as a scapegoat with which to expand the Clone Wars so he could get more power.

Once Grievous escaped from the attack on Coruscant Palpatine was basically able to seize direct control of Republic systems with his emergency powers.

It is with these powers that he begins major build-ups of weapons and vessels.

 

While the Clone Army is used to form the initial Imperial Armed forces, its dwindling numbers were soon replaced with unknown numbers of recruits.

 

However, there are supposedly still some Clones serving in the Imperial military as of ANH.

A prime example would be the one Stormtrooper who banged his head into a door on the Death Star. A trait he gained from good ole`Jango Fett.

[SOCL]

I am sorry that we seem to disagree, but I understand your point of view.I just accept more as canon than the films. The official site has what GL considers to be canon. In a couple of interviews over the past few years he has stated that the site has what he considers to be accurate info for fans interested in knowing background on things that they see in the films. You use Dr. Saxton I use the Star Wars site. Both places have info that may or may not be what we consider correct. I am happy with my SW world and I hope you are happy with yours. We probably will never agree on everything, but we do agree on many issues.-GM Conway

I don't know what you mean by we disagree because I'm not disaree with you on anything. I merely asked the question of whether StarWars.com can actually be considered canon by official-standards. I understand the idea of "to each his own", yes, I got that the first time, what I'm trying to figure out is a truly honest question of whether StarWars.com can be considered canon in the same light the movies are. Again, what I wrote has absolutely nothing to do with disagreeing with you, and has nothing to do with the "to each his own" as far as SW canon goes, it was merely a question.

[Paul]

SOCL, as I wrote in the quote above, GL has stated that what is at the site is accurate per his standards. Now I realize that the films are number 1 but his saying that he officially approves of the info on Starwars.com makes it canon as far as I see it. Jahled on the other hand only accepts the films as canon. So to answer your question I really do believe it depends on the persons viewpoint as to what is or isn't canon. GL states that the site is quotable in Star Wars discussions so to me that implies that he considers the info posted there canon. This is all I can tell you.- Grand Moff Conway

[Jahled]

Dudes!!!!

 

I only ever suggested we only use the films as a point of reference, and not expanded EU stuff to try and have a reasonable debate concerning the issue of this thread, given it would be impossible to do so with everyone quoting this and that and what they had for lunch besides!

 

I said this before, but the magic of Star Wars is what ever it means to you personally. Just because I for example threw Darksaber into the ocean off the coast of Spain when I reached the final full-stop, someone else is perfectly entitled to have thought of it as a blast and treasure it on their own bookshelf! It goes for everything else to do with the mythos.

[Darktrooper]

The novel (don't worry, no spoiler here) states also the issue of non-clone officers included in the republic navy. I believe that the republic started training officers to command treir cap-ships.

[SOCL]

The novel (don't worry, no spoiler here) states also the issue of non-clone officers included in the republic navy. I believe that the republic started training officers to command treir cap-ships.

WOO! Confirmed!

[Darktrooper]

Not only that (teaser ahead), but one of the officers will be familiar for us, the guys in the know. My only clue is that name appears in ESB.

 

 

You can kill me later, thak you.

[Trejiuvanat]

Not only that (teaser ahead), but one of the officers will be familiar for us, the guys in the know. My only clue is that name appears in ESB.

 

 

You can kill me later, thak you.

 

Didn't you mean ANH instead of ESB?

 

Didn't you mean HIM? click only if ou want to be spoilt.

[Darktrooper]

Nope. That's at the end of the movie. This guy is a lesser character.

 

Next clue. He owned a Imp-Star at Hoth.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

By "owned" do you mean "pwnd" or "owned"?