Clone Empire.

[Guest Scathane]

I concur: not all Stormtroopers are clones...

[SOCL]

Additionally, wouldn't those black-helmeted guards we see throughout the trilogy also be more-or-less proof that the Empire is not 100% clones? Perhaps not since they aren't Stormtroopers.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

It has been argued that the Empire may have taken multiple other genetic samples from individuals thought to be exemplary in their performance, but I think that is a little weak.

 

I don't think anyone has taken the Death Star Troopers into consideration before! They would seem to suggest that not all Stormtroopers are clones, though, as you pointed out, they aren't Stormtroopers.

 

We must consider the fact that there are officers in the Imperial Army though. How can you have officers who aren't clones, if your army was created completely out of clones? We hear yoda refer to one clone as Commander, suggesting that the officers in the initial Clone Army were clones themselves. So, if officers such as Tagge and Veers exist, doesn't that suggest that the Imperial Army utilized recruitment as well as cloning?

 

It should also be noted that, as the Republic had no army before the Clone Army, it's not possible that Tagge and Veers are from a time before the Empire.

[SOCL]

It has been argued that the Empire may have taken multiple other genetic samples from individuals thought to be exemplary in their performance, but I think that is a little weak.

Well, the very notion that the Empire had other genetic samples from good soldiers proves that the Empire had already started to enlist non-clones. Of course, the only problem with this arguement is that there is no proof (other than the non-Jango Fett voices) that the Empire used non-clones.

 

It should also be noted that, as the Republic had no army before the Clone Army, it's not possible that Tagge and Veers are from a time before the Empire.

This I somehow doubt...but what do you mean?

[Guest Scathane]

This I somehow doubt...but what do you mean?

Although I'd admit to the fact that it seems strange that SOCL doubts something he doesn't understand, I must concur with his question: what do you mean?

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

Before the Republic took command of the Clone Army, they didn't have a military to speak of (this is the impression I got from AotC). That would explain why the Trade Federation was allowed to have its own army, and why there was a debate in the senate about the formation of a Republic Army.

 

So, because there was no army, Tagge and Veers could not have simply been officers from another generation. They would have had to be recruited from the general populace, indicating that the Empire began recruitment rather than restricting it's army expansion to cloning.

[Guest Scathane]

But then again, Tagge and Veers are officers, whereas Jahled's argument is about troopers...

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

I had tied it in by noting that the officers in the Clone Army were also clones (Yoda calling one Commander). If one is willing to replace those who make executive decisions with non-enhanced folks, why not do the same with the grunts?

 

I must admit that Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace were all Generals, so it couls stand to reason that most decisions were made by the Jedi in the initial stages of the war, and that Tagge and Veers were simply filling the gaps left by the Jedi purge...

[Mad78]

Surely the clones were supposed to be a "boost"

ie they would give the Republic something to begin with and something to give people the will to sign in.

[Stellar_Magic]

Additionally as the war continued you'd think the droids would have been programmed to know how the clones fought. Clones being clones would mean that they all would fight in the same manner and this static and unimaginitive nature would require guidance and a bit of diversity to make their forces less predictable in combat as the war continued.

[Jahled]

Surely the clones were supposed to be a "boost"

ie they would give the Republic something to begin with and something to give people the will to sign in.

 

Thought this through dude?

 

Figure, clones are the elite of the elite. Trained from birth to kill in every means possible, and at a budget; the galactic Empire can clothe and arm it's 'shocktroops' (as Stormtroopers are always described, indicating the Empire had regular 'normal' troopers...ie guys dressed in black without masks) completely the same. No helmet or armour size variation, etc. It's like adding to a regiment of the SAS with regular army troops. Zanshin. Look it up.

 

...I am in no way suggesting the Empire is held together by an army of clones; but that is how in every reference to Stormtroopers as shocktroopers are basically described! They are sparten and militaristic to the core and steadfastly loyal to the Emperor!

 

Before any of you quote me wrongly; when Han Solo chased those troopers on the Death Star, it was a tactical retreat....

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

Which Zanshin were you talking about? The karate, the art, or the website created because not enough websites start with z ?

 

Clones aren't the "elite of the elite", they're simply better than droids (due only to the fact that they are capable of independant thought), and they certainly aren't created on a budget. Sure, you only have to buy one size of combat armor, but remember that the cloners are friendly depending on "how good your manners are, and how big your pocket-book is".

 

As for the guys in black, they're described as Death Star troopers or naval troopers. They always seem to be stationed at military instilations or aboard ships, but never in great numbers.

 

My impression from the movies was that Stormtroopers are the general infantry of the Empire, and that all the other variable troopers are simply specialists.

[AdmiralFishface]

Whenever I think of this topic, the two Stormies in the Death Star come to mind, who casually chat while on guard.

Granted, it's just one line or so, and I won't deny clones the right to chat, but these two somehow don't fit in with my picture of die-hard spartan clone troopers. These, and the one looking after his gunned down companion on the Tantive IV gave me more the impression of humans being under these masks than war machines bred in glass tubes.

So I assume that while a large portion of troopers is indeed clones, not all of them are (for whatever reason).

 

But that's just my take on this, and might not impact you others' views.

[Guest Scathane]

Clones aren't the "elite of the elite"...

Perhaps so...

 

...they're simply better than droids...

No, they were far superior, which, in my humble opinion, is quite a bit more than simply better. Moreover, at the time of their introduction, the clone trooper represented the future of galactic warfare...

 

...due only to the fact that they are capable of independant thought...

The fact that they maintained a spark of independent thought only made them more suited to handle unexpected turns of warfare than droids. They were superior due to the following facts as well:

 

• The original source of genetic material was an extremely skilled bounty hunter named Jango Fett
• The clones were constantly trained in fighting techniques, vehicular skills and battlefield tactics
• They were equipped with advanced armor and air support
• They were led into battle by Jedi commanders (at Geonosis anyway)
• Their identities are wholly shaped by military training and subservience to authority
• Fett offered his martial expertise to advise in the training of his duplicates

...and they certainly aren't created on a budget. Sure, you only have to buy one size of combat armor...

Yes, they are created on a budget and not only due to one single size of armor. I have argues this before, but since this concept seems hard to grasp for some of you, I'll say it again.

 

The designing a clone is a one time process. Sure, you have to research and develop until you have the right formula, but this is true for every invention. The trick after that is mass production; i.e., the relative cost of production drops dramatically. And, as I said, not only for armor but for everything: housing, training, clothing, weaponry, combat medicine (organs are interchangeable between troopers without risk of rejection syndrome) etc. You might argue that only the relative cost drops but so what?! The Empire is a mass production organisation anyway, so relative cost is an essential competitive advantage to them.

 

I know from experience this is a difficult concept (this is true even for a lot of RL organisations) but, for instance, companies like EasyGroup and Ryan Air have become market leaders due to this very same strategy.

 

...but remember that the cloners are friendly depending on "how good your manners are, and how big your pocket-book is".

I think we can safely state that this was true until Palpatine revealed his true intentions. After that, my guess is he would just as easily enslave the Kaminoans and force them into slavery.

 

As for the guys in black, they're described as Death Star troopers or naval troopers. They always seem to be stationed at military instilations or aboard ships, but never in great numbers.

Never in great numbers, hey? This supports Jahled's argument for troopers rather than dismisses it.

 

I must admit, though, that I believe that GL asserts that Stormtroopers were trained rather than cloned, although I personally don't see why the Empire would have abandoned cloning...

[Jahled]

Interesting views all round. My rather vague referance to Zanshin was a bit misleading, so i've done a little search and reckon this more or less goes some way of explaining more or less what I (failed) to imply...

 

In layman's terms it is a mental approach to combat, and not exclusive to oriental society. Someone who has trained in boxing for years might aquire it, a black belt at Karate might not have aquired it. A regiment of well-drilled soldiers are more likely to have it than a regiment of poorly trained conscripts. It is difficult to translate, and shouldn't be confined to zen-like states of Bushido for example.

 

For an entire regiment of clones to possess it, having known virtually nothing other than Spartan-style militaristic training since they entered the world from their spaarti tanks, makes much more formidable soldiers to fill the Empire's ranks than recruits who may actually hinder this militaristic nature in combat.

 

...just my curve on the subject...

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

The fact that they maintained a spark of independent thought only made them more suited to handle unexpected turns of warfare than droids. They were superior due to the following facts as well:

 

• • The original source of genetic material was an extremely skilled bounty hunter named Jango Fett
  • The clones were constantly trained in fighting techniques, vehicular skills and battlefield tactics
  • They were equipped with advanced armor and air support
  • They were led into battle by Jedi commanders (at Geonosis anyway)
  • Their identities are wholly shaped by military training and subservience to authority
  • Fett offered his martial expertise to advise in the training of his duplicates

 

Three of those traits can also be applied to the droid army. Their programming was restricted to a military nature and could be updated as new and more advanced weapons and vehicles were developed. And what's more subserviant than a droid in the Star Wars galaxy?

 

I wasn't arguing that the clones aren't better (or "far superior", which is nothing more than word semantics) than droids, I was simply saying that they aren't "the elite of the elite". From what I've seen one of Grievous' bodyguards is far more capable than any droid or clone depicted thus far, and might even pose a threat to a Jedi.

 

Yes, they are created on a budget and not only due to one single size of armor. I have argues this before, but since this concept seems hard to grasp for some of you, I'll say it again.

 

The designing a clone is a one time process. Sure, you have to research and develop until you have the right formula, but this is true for every invention. The trick after that is mass production; i.e., the relative cost of production drops dramatically. And, as I said, not only for armor but for everything: housing, training, clothing, weaponry, combat medicine (organs are interchangeable between troopers without risk of rejection syndrome) etc. You might argue that only the relative cost drops but so what?! The Empire is a mass production organisation anyway, so relative cost is an essential competitive advantage to them.

 

While the design of a clone is a one time process, the Kaminoans were running a business, and the Republic would have to pay a marked-up price for each unit. Then there is the cost of suddenly having to feed and maintain your new-found army and vehicles. Maintenance, replacement of lost or damaged ships and vehicles, ammunition, damaged equipment. Considering there was previousely no money allocated for these things, I'd say it costs quite a bit. Because the Kaminoans would have to maintain the cloning facilities, the cost of each unit would increase again accordingly.

 

Many of the costs listed above would, of course, apply to any army, but it is the sudden inflation of the army that would cause problems, and a prolonged expansion by a mass-injection of troops would take its toll. It might be cheaper to train a Stormtooper than to grow one and pay the going rate for them

 

I think we can safely state that this was true until Palpatine revealed his true intentions. After that, my guess is he would just as easily enslave the Kaminoans and force them into slavery.

 

Yes, but he could have also enslaved the Kuaty to produce cheaper Star Destroyers, or taken Seinar Fleet Systems into govermnet control, but as far as we know he didn't (I know, this isn't a movie example, but as it doesn't directly relate to cloning I flet it appropriate. If not, ignore this point ).

 

Up to this point we only have EU sources that state not only that Paplitane was xenophobic, but also that he supported the slavery of other races. I don't think we can safely state anything along those lines at the moment.

 

Never in great numbers, hey? This supports Jahled's argument for troopers rather than dismisses it.

 

I believe Jahled used them as an example suggesting that troopers of their kind were the true general infantry of the Empire. I was simply mentioning how small their numbers were to suggest otherwise.

 

The major reason why I oppose the idea of the vast number of Stormtroopers, or indeed any masked troopers, being clones is, if Palpitane had the ability to clone as many troops as he wanted, why didn't he clone Jedi and twist them to the Dark Side? He knew his plans for the Jedi Order, and a legion of Sith would have been far more usefull than one Dark Jedi leading a bunch of clones, and it certainly would have helped him solidify and maintain his power once the Jedi were gone.

 

I've noticed that between the time my page loaded and when I pressed the "Post Reply" button Jahled has posted, so I'll read your post then edit .

 

EDIT:Now I see what you meant. It would certainly be easier for a clone regiment to acquire such a mindset in combat, but then, we don't really know how the Empire would train a non-clone to become a Stormtrooper. I doubt that any training would result in an equal to a clone, but it might be easier.

[Guest Scathane]

Three of those traits can also be applied to the droid army. Their programming was restricted to a military nature and could be updated as new and more advanced weapons and vehicles were developed. And what's more subserviant than a droid in the Star Wars galaxy?

For two of the three applicable, the answers are simple:

 

• Programming? The difference here is training (i.e., learning) versus programming
• More advanced weapons were developed? Not in time to prohibit total decimation of the droid army.

Which is the third?

 

I wasn't arguing that the clones aren't better (or "far superior", which is nothing more than word semantics) than droids…

What exactly do you mean by nothing more than word semantics? Semantics do serve a purpose, you know. Now if you made this remark to the difference between better and superior, I would have agreed but I made the distinction between simply better and far superior, which I think justifies pointing out the difference in semantics.

 

I was simply saying that they aren't "the elite of the elite". From what I've seen one of Grievous' bodyguards is far more capable than any droid or clone depicted thus far, and might even pose a threat to a Jedi.

This may be true, I wasn’t aware of Grievous’ bodyguard…

 

While the design of a clone is a one time process, the Kaminoans were running a business, and the Republic would have to pay a marked-up price for each unit. Then there is the cost of suddenly having to feed and maintain your new-found army and vehicles. Maintenance, replacement of lost or damaged ships and vehicles, ammunition, damaged equipment. Considering there was previousely no money allocated for these things, I'd say it costs quite a bit. Because the Kaminoans would have to maintain the cloning facilities, the cost of each unit would increase again accordingly.

 

Many of the costs listed above would, of course, apply to any army, but it is the sudden inflation of the army that would cause problems, and a prolonged expansion by a mass-injection of troops would take its toll. It might be cheaper to train a Stormtooper than to grow one and pay the going rate for them.

You’re right when you say that it costs quite a bit. Firstly, however, this has nothing to do with whether there was money allocated for it or not. Secondly, I never said it didn’t cost quite a bit.

 

What I was saying, and that’s where you go wrong, is that the relative cost of a clone army is lower than that of an army of trained individuals. I can assure that the cost of training a Stormtrooper is relatively lower than growing a clone when it comes to mass production. And, pardon me for putting it this blunt, the matter really isn’t open to debate: we’re talking finances and numbers here, not opinion.

 

Creating an army made up of individuals confronts you with differences. Differences in character, in size, in anatomy and so on. When it comes to mass production, it is difference that ups relative cost, whereas modularity and standardization lowers it. Thus, an army of, say, 1,000,000 Clone Troopers is cheaper than an army of 1,000,000 individual Stormtroopers, not only in the relative sense but in the absolute sense as well.

 

 

Yes, but he could have also enslaved the Kuaty to produce cheaper Star Destroyers, or taken Seinar Fleet Systems into govermnet control, but as far as we know he didn't (I know, this isn't a movie example, but as it doesn't directly relate to cloning I flet it appropriate. If not, ignore this point ).

 

Up to this point we only have EU sources that state not only that Paplitane was xenophobic, but also that he supported the slavery of other races. I don't think we can safely state anything along those lines at the moment.

Point taken.

 

The major reason why I oppose the idea of the vast number of Stormtroopers, or indeed any masked troopers, being clones is, if Palpitane had the ability to clone as many troops as he wanted, why didn't he clone Jedi and twist them to the Dark Side? He knew his plans for the Jedi Order, and a legion of Sith would have been far more usefull than one Dark Jedi leading a bunch of clones, and it certainly would have helped him solidify and maintain his power once the Jedi were gone.

I honestly don’t know whether force sensitivity can be cloned.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

Which is the third?

 

I sort of combined your second and fifth point together. They are "trained" (or programmed) for nothing but military service, and have the knowledge required for utilizing their vehicles and weapons to the fullest.

 

What exactly do you mean by nothing more than word semantics? Semantics do serve a purpose, you know. Now if you made this remark to the difference between better and superior, I would have agreed but I made the distinction between simply better and far superior, which I think justifies pointing out the difference in semantics.

 

What I meant was, I already agree that clones are better, saying "no, they aren't better, they're much buetter" is pointless. I know they're better than droids, I simply felt that the term "elite" wasn't appropriate for them.

 

What I was saying, and that’s where you go wrong, is that the relative cost of a clone army is lower than that of an army of trained individuals. I can assure that the cost of training a Stormtrooper is relatively lower than growing a clone when it comes to mass production. And, pardon me for putting it this blunt, the matter really isn’t open to debate: we’re talking finances and numbers here, not opinion.

 

Ok, so far you've a greed with me: training a Stormtooper is cheaper than growing a Clone.

 

The matter is open to debate, howver. Can you tell me how much it costs to grow a clone? Buy armor? What is the cost for equipment to train a clone? What do the Kaminoans charge for a single unit? None of these variables are known, but we can look at the situation and form an opinion.

 

Creating an army made up of individuals confronts you with differences. Differences in character, in size, in anatomy and so on. When it comes to mass production, it is difference that ups relative cost, whereas modularity and standardization lowers it. Thus, an army of, say, 1,000,000 Clone Troopers is cheaper than an army of 1,000,000 individual Stormtroopers, not only in the relative sense but in the absolute sense as well.

 

The only advantage to having an army that is entirely identicle is that you don't need to produce more than one size of armor, and even there you can allow for various body sizes and shapes by making certain aspects adaptable to a certain degree. There may be three sizes of Stortrooper armor, each expandable to a limit. If you are above or below the limit of the upper and lower most sizes, you're not qualified to be a Stormtrooper. The vehicles and housing for the troops wouldn't chage at all, so I fail to see how the rest of the variables come in.

 

 

I honestly don’t know whether force sensitivity can be cloned.

 

I suppose this depends on whether or not you're a pro-midichlorian person . The answer to this may lie in the nature of the Force.

[Guest Scathane]

I sort of combined your second and fifth point together. They are "trained" (or programmed) for nothing but military service, and have the knowledge required for utilizing their vehicles and weapons to the fullest.

I see.

 

What I meant was, I already agree that clones are better, saying "no, they aren't better, they're much buetter" is pointless. I know they're better than droids, I simply felt that the term "elite" wasn't appropriate for them.

I can agree to the inappropriate use of elite, however, I still feel that better is a euphemism.

 

Ok, so far you've a greed with me: training a Stormtooper is cheaper than growing a Clone.

I presume that you will see that I meant it exactly the other way around…

 

The matter is open to debate, howver. Can you tell me how much it costs to grow a clone? Buy armor? What is the cost for equipment to train a clone? What do the Kaminoans charge for a single unit? None of these variables are known, but we can look at the situation and form an opinion.

No, the matter is not open to debate so, since I admit that a lot of variables are unknown, let’s focus on the known variables.

 

The only advantage to having an army that is entirely identicle is that you don't need to produce more than one size of armor, and even there you can allow for various body sizes and shapes by making certain aspects adaptable to a certain degree. There may be three sizes of Stortrooper armor, each expandable to a limit. If you are above or below the limit of the upper and lower most sizes, you're not qualified to be a Stormtrooper. The vehicles and housing for the troops wouldn't chage at all, so I fail to see how the rest of the variables come in.

No, armor’s not the only advantage, you fail to see the bigger picture. But let’s start with that.

 

We know that the Empire had a lot of Stormtroopers. To recruit large numbers, you’d have to recruit from a source that’s big enough to support those numbers. Reducing your armor to three basic sizes, means that you can only rely on a limited group of that source. So, although I think we can safely state that there was a lower as well as an upper limit to Stormtrooper size, we can also safely assume that there are more that three sizes. So, let’s up the variables to a maximum of five sizes (which, in my opinion, still isn’t enough, since you’d have to account for size averages not only of humans, but all humanoid races). This alone means that a Stormtrooper armor has to be more than five times less the cost of a Clone Trooper armor to make for a lower price in equal numbers of troops.

 

On to the second. Housing and vehicle space would be different for the vary same reason. Since you have to account for various sizes of people to fit in a tank, fighter or bunk, you have to up the average spacing for each. More space generally means more material enveloping it, so, again, this ups the cost. In producing clones you don't have this problem.

 

The third. To train a class of, say, thirty individuals means that the trainer has to be capable to deal with different characters, backgrounds, emotions and so on. Consequently, the trainer has to have a more extensive training in order to be equipped for the job. This means you’re trainers are more expensive than trainers educated for one single type of clone.

 

The fourth. As I said before (and as starwars.com confirms), internal organs are the same for every clone, without the fear of rejection syndrome. This means that organs of dead clones can easily be transferred to injured clones needing them. This alone would make the transplantation procedure simpler thus easier thus faster thus cheaper. Furthermore, you would need physicians trained only for the biological makeup of clones which are all the same. This means that their training is cheaper. Moreover: every doctor can deal with every clone, because they’re al the same. Again, this lessens the relative cost.

 

The fifth. In calculating the average amount of nutrition an individual needs, you would have to come up with an average that is right for some, not enough for others and too much for yet again others. For clones, you can calculate exactly what one clone needs, giving none too much or not enough.

 

Summarising (because I could go on for quite a bit), the point is that, for individuals you have to account for differences by calculating averages. These averages are surplus for some and surminus for others. But anyway you look at it, averages downgrade efficiency. These differences may no be much when talking about a production of, say ten… But when applied to millions, the costs are cut by amazing amounts.

 

And, as I said before, this is not a matter of opinion… How do you think McDonalds became so big, or Ikea? They did exactly the same thing. Moreover, there are two simple concepts underlying economic success: either capital circulation is low and cost efficiency per unit is high or capital circulation is high and cost efficiency per unit is low. The Empire deals in numbers so, its capital circulation is high, which means they can do with low cost efficiencies per unit.

 

Believe me: the Empire is into operational excellence (The Discipline of Market Leaders by Treacy and Wiersema – look it up!)…

 

 

I suppose this depends on whether or not you're a pro-midichlorian person . The answer to this may lie in the nature of the Force.

You’re absolutely right here.

[Jahled]

There is yet another economic factor in the advantage of clones I muttered something about before, that is purely speculation; but if the Empire made their clones along the line of the replicants of Bladerunner, they would theoretically have the option of being able to set a life span on the troopers, thus avoiding the strange concept of Stormtroopers retiring into galactic society and the strange effect of so many identical genes entering the galactic pool... so the clones would die of 'natural courses,' at a conveniant age, and thus enable the Empire to avoid pension funds. They're brainwashed from conception so it wouldn't matter to much to their philosophic outlook on life, fish, and everything...

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

We know that the Empire had a lot of Stormtroopers. To recruit large numbers, you’d have to recruit from a source that’s big enough to support those numbers. Reducing your armor to three basic sizes, means that you can only rely on a limited group of that source. So, although I think we can safely state that there was a lower as well as an upper limit to Stormtrooper size, we can also safely assume that there are more that three sizes. So, let’s up the variables to a maximum of five sizes (which, in my opinion, still isn’t enough, since you’d have to account for size averages not only of humans, but all humanoid races). This alone means that a Stormtrooper armor has to be more than five times less the cost of a Clone Trooper armor to make for a lower price in equal numbers of troops.

 

The smaller sizes of hypothetical Stormtrooper armor would have a lower cost as they use fewer materials. That you are producing more than one size doesn't increase/decrease the cost of production, it simply means that you won't be able to produce the same volume as you would of clone trooper armor. Of course, to really get an idea of how many variation of Stormtooper armor there is we would have to look at the movies.

 

Housing and vehicle space would be different for the vary same reason. Since you have to account for various sizes of people to fit in a tank, fighter or bunk, you have to up the average spacing for each. More space generally means more material enveloping it, so, again, this ups the cost. In producing clones you don't have this problem.

 

I very much doubt that the Empire said to KDY in the development of the ISD "Well, the average height of a Stormtrooper is "X", so you're going to have to make the ship twenty meters longer, and five wider to accomodate". Does the U.S. army say "well, this Abrams tank can't accomodate a driver over two and a quarter meters, so we'll have to make it bigger"? No, they say, sorry my large friend, you can't drive this tank. Each roll would be filled by a person who meets the qualifications for that roll. For example, from what we see of the TIE pilots in the movies, they are of a rather short stock. Also, according to the StarWars.com, only 10% of eligable TIE Pilot candidates are chosen for duty. I think from that it's safe to assume that the Empire has no problems narrowing prospecitve candidates. Also, if you look at StarWars.com, Stormtroopers are listed as being 1.83 meters in height. While I'm sure this is an average, it also gives us an idea of what the Empire was looking for in a Stormtrooper.

 

The third. To train a class of, say, thirty individuals means that the trainer has to be capable to deal with different characters, backgrounds, emotions and so on. Consequently, the trainer has to have a more extensive training in order to be equipped for the job. This means you’re trainers are more expensive than trainers educated for one single type of clone.

 

Or the Empire could take the same rout as the American Army. The American training regiment is as harsh as it is because it wants to break their recruits down, and then mold them into the soldier they want. I also think paying a trainer is cheaper than paying to operate a cloneing facility.

 

The fourth. As I said before (and as starwars.com confirms), internal organs are the same for every clone, without the fear of rejection syndrome. This means that organs of dead clones can easily be transferred to injured clones needing them. This alone would make the transplantation procedure simpler thus easier thus faster thus cheaper. Furthermore, you would need physicians trained only for the biological makeup of clones which are all the same. This means that their training is cheaper. Moreover: every doctor can deal with every clone, because they’re al the same. Again, this lessens the relative cost.

 

This I agree with emphatically. Having the ability to use any organ for any member of an army is very useful, and it certainly takes some of the complications out of medical treatment.

 

As for the medics, I don't think training them for a plethera of humanoid species would be a significant increase in spending. We know that all Stormtroopers are human. We know this because you can't fit a Quarren, Mon Cal, Ithorian, Devorian, Ishi Tib, Weequay or Gotal into that helmet (well, maybe a Weequay). There probably isn't much variation between the humanoid species in the Star Wars galaxy.

 

The fifth. In calculating the average amount of nutrition an individual needs, you would have to come up with an average that is right for some, not enough for others and too much for yet again others. For clones, you can calculate exactly what one clone needs, giving none too much or not enough.

 

Or they would calculate an average and assign rations for each trooper.

 

An army doesn't run in a way that is tailored for each trooper, they run as a single body, and every one gets the same ammount of equipment and food (depending on rank that is) as the next man. There is no need to cater to each individual's needs.

 

Summarising (because I could go on for quite a bit), the point is that, for individuals you have to account for differences by calculating averages. These averages are surplus for some and surminus for others. But anyway you look at it, averages downgrade efficiency. These differences may no be much when talking about a production of, say ten… But when applied to millions, the costs are cut by amazing amounts.

 

And, as I said before, this is not a matter of opinion… How do you think McDonalds became so big, or Ikea? They did exactly the same thing. Moreover, there are two simple concepts underlying economic success: either capital circulation is low and cost efficiency per unit is high or capital circulation is high and cost efficiency per unit is low. The Empire deals in numbers so, its capital circulation is high, which means they can do with low cost efficiencies per unit.

 

I know what you're saying, but simply because there is diversity to some extent doesn't mean mass production isn't possible. All of the AT-ATs in the Empire would still be the same if each Stormtrooper were different, as would the size of the bunks, weight of the E-11 blasterand the ammount of food provided. By restricting the physical attributes of a candidate they can solve any problems involving a great variation. Considering the size of the pool the Empire has to draw candidates from, I don't think whittling that pool down a little would hurt.

 

Believe me: the Empire is into operational excellence (The Discipline of Market Leaders by Treacy and Wiersema – look it up!)…

 

I agree that the Empire certainly fits that philosophy, and as I've said before, I'm f the opinion that the cost of running a clone army would be the same as running a recruited army. The cost difference comes in the development. If the Empire isn't producing the clones, they have to buy them. What does each clone cost? We don't ahve numbers, but I'm willing to bet it makes more sence to pull some guy off the street who qualifies than to pay someone to grow a trooper for you.

 

I also want to mention that Jahled was correct, and that Stormtroopers are not the mainstay of the Imperial Army. According to StarWars.com they aren't even affiliated with the Army, but are of their own orginization. They are described as "shock troops" and as an "elite unit". Though this goes agains what my opinion is, I think that this would certainly support the idea that Stormtroopers are clones. Because each Stormtrooper battalion only has 820 men, cloning them would be simple.

 

This also supports my views to some extend. Because they are only small groups, the Empire wouldn't have to recruit as many men to fill them. There also wouldn't be as many units of armor and weapons to produce for them.

 

On a side note, how large would the Imperial Army be? In AotC we hear that there is 1 million more units on the way... but for a galaxy-spanning government, that's pretty small. How many years had the clone army been in production prior to AotC?

[Lord_La_forge]

I have to produce more clone brothers for reading such an amount of posts every day Good topic.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

Quite a good topic indeed . With Scath gone we were lacking on debates and fast-paced discussions!

[Jahled]

For example, from what we see of the TIE pilots in the movies, they are of a rather short stock. Also, according to the StarWars.com, only 10% of eligable TIE Pilot candidates are chosen for duty.

 

Err... dude, they don not appear to be small to me...

 

Ok, another point i'll drag out of the past concerning this in particular; who in their right mind would willingly hop into an unshielded, unescapable, mercy of of a mother-ship, tactically superiorty fighterthat is essentially proven to be little more than target-practice pieces by Wedge and his glory boys other than conditioned clones trained for the task? In this respect no one 'normal' in their right mind would become a TIE pilot. So clones would suit the purpose. Given they wont have much concept of 'life,' it's probable their brainwashed minds might except death floating in space unable to go anywhere given their Star Destroyer just got taken out by a heroic volley of B-Wing blasts...

[Paul]

Jahled my friend Star Wars web site says that TIE pilots were trained at the Academy. It also mentions that Stormtrooper candidates were trained at Carida. I find everyones attachment to this clone only idea ridiculous. I have given facts from lucasarts articles before that there are both clone and human stormtroopers.-Grand Moff Conway

PS: I do consider you all my friends of course, and friends can have differences of opinion