Clone Empire.

[Jahled]

Jahled my friend Star Wars web site says that TIE pilots were trained at the Academy. It also mentions that Stormtrooper candidates were trained at Carida. I find everyones attachment to this clone only idea ridiculous. I have given facts from lucasarts articles before that there are both clone and human stormtroopers.-Grand Moff Conway

PS: I do consider you all my friends of course, and friends can have differences of opinion

 

No worries dude!

 

Part of the point of this thread is not to quote all the Star Wars Expanded Universe and/or canon rubbish (just my own opinion again) and concentrate on what we've seen in the films. The last page or two of this thread have pretty compelling arguments that a huge chunk of the Empire would be clones, and the mix and match approach to regiments of Stormtroopers wouln't work. Have you considered the effect it would have on the psychology of a regiment, half of whome are identical clones, and the other half enlisted men? Even keeping clone and enlisted regiments seperate wouldn't make much sense.

 

TIE pilots. Well, in AotC we see some of the clone army as pilots; makes sense for them to evolve into TIE pilots. And consider my points concerning the psychology of someone prepared to fly one of them. According to the EU Alliance and Imperial fighters are like modern fighter jets and jets from the fourties... you can't conquer a galaxy with such equipment, and certainly no one would opt to fly one knowing their chances of overall survival are exceeding slim. Again, the mythology that has grown around the films has got it badly wrong.

 

If you want to take everything in the EU on board that's upto you; but my personal Star Wars universe exists in what I see in the movies and what makes sense. Most of the EU doesn't. According to classic Star Wars 'The Early Adventures,' Darth Vader states he doesn't eat or drink whilst having a chat with Tarkin's widow. I think we'd all agree that's a slightly crap part of the EU! Likewise in the Phantom Affair Wedge and the lads capture a portable Death Star Super Laser. Where was this when the Vong began to start slaughtering the galaxy? And of course where do you draw the line with what's in and what's not in the EU? For these reasons I ignore anything other than what's in the films whilst trying to compose an intelligent argument; quite frankly because the EU mythology isn't.

 

But that's just my opinion...

[SOCL]

To adddress a few quick points....

 

It was mentioned that stormtrooper armor comes in different sizes...okay, then why does Han fit so well into the armor and Luke "can't see a thing"? Additionally, we have the infamous quote, "Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?" Not to be a pain, but it sounds (and by the looks of stormtroopers throughout the movies) to me like they're all about if not the exact same size. Okay, so I don't particularly believe that al the stormtrooper are clones, but its very likely that many of them are. Perhaps those that aren't are the officers, who probably have to be a certain height in order to stormtroopers. No, this is not unheard of, either. Look at the Third Reich, they had a height requirement for the SS shocktroopers...oh, by the way, in case no one knows this, the Third Reich's SS were called 'Stormtroopers' before they came to be known as the SS. Again, it does not seem so unlikely that they would recruit troopers, but probably ones that met the clone requirements. Additionally, the different voices heard from stormtroopers can be attributed to these non-clones who meet the clone-status qualifications and are then cloned. Quite simply, even if it was used only for the sake of debate, I seriously doubt there were different sizes of armor.

 

Also, it seems that the idea of clones doing different duties is difficult to grasp. The truth is, though, we have clonetroopers who are trained to be pilots, we have cloned troopers who are trained to be commandos, we have cloned troopers who are trained to be gunners, etc. These are specific-role clones, so it's not hard to see that the TIE pilots are most likely simply an evolved version of clone pilots. Again, Jahled made a good point: Who in the right mind would suit up in a unshielded, weak-frame, no-environment-in-cockpit fighter that relies on numbers alone to win against X-Wings and Y-Wings? I believe a bunch of clones trained for the sole purpose of piloting fighetrs would...anyone else would simply be stupid.

 

And, despite what it may seem, it would be less costly to mass-produce an army of clones versus an army of recruits. I know averages would make this easier, but the fact is you would have to still have variety. The USA's army has attempted to cut costs by making uniforms that a soldier puts on and then puts in the wash for x-amount of time...it then shrinks to be the right size. Even so, this is more expensive than having everyone be the same size and then having x-amount of the same uniforms. It's all a matter of cost-efficiency, and an army that has no 'human needs' to speak of would cost less than an army of personality-ridden recruits. By the way, has anyone considered Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome? Clones would, odds are, not suffer fro, the psychological strain of combat and watching their buddies blown to bits as compared to emotional, compassionate humans. An army full of soldiers suffering from such strains be wasting money on paying for psychological evalutations when compared to an army that has trained-from-birth fighting machines who don't care--they simply follow orders.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

 

It was mentioned that stormtrooper armor comes in different sizes...okay, then why does Han fit so well into the armor and Luke "can't see a thing"? Additionally, we have the infamous quote, "Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?"

 

Well, the answer to that is simple: The stormtrooper that Luke took his armor from was larger than him. It's not as though tey stopped at the Stormtrooper Boutique and picked out their armor .

 

I have already made mention that there is most likely a size requirement for stormtroopers, and that his would explain both the quote, and the reason for all the stormtroopers being of or around the same height.

 

 

Quite simply, even if it was used only for the sake of debate, I seriously doubt there were different sizes of armor.

 

If you take a look at this image, we see that the height of stormtroopers does indeed vary. The stormtrooper on far side in the front, as well as the nearest in the back are noticably shorter than the rest in the group. this image shows the height difference even more clearly. Indeed, if you compare this to Han and Luke in the armor, we find that the height difference is about the same. You will also notice that the armor fits equally well on both troopers. Some stormtroopers in this image are aslo shorter, though some of them only appear to be as they are in an "action pose".

 

Now, taking that into consideration, look at this image just after Luke, Leia Han and Chewie escape the garbage compactor. We see that stormtrooper armor is a single piece for the most part. So, if shorter stormtroopers were to fit as well into their armor as those that are larger than them, they would need a smaller set of armor. Because the white plasteel segments are attached to the black underlay, I suggest that the underlay of able to stretch to a degree, allowing stormtroopers upto a certain height to wear a specific size.

 

Also, it seems that the idea of clones doing different duties is difficult to grasp. The truth is, though, we have clonetroopers who are trained to be pilots, we have cloned troopers who are trained to be commandos, we have cloned troopers who are trained to be gunners, etc. These are specific-role clones, so it's not hard to see that the TIE pilots are most likely simply an evolved version of clone pilots. Again, Jahled made a good point: Who in the right mind would suit up in a unshielded, weak-frame, no-environment-in-cockpit fighter that relies on numbers alone to win against X-Wings and Y-Wings? I believe a bunch of clones trained for the sole purpose of piloting fighetrs would...anyone else would simply be stupid.

 

If we go back to the First World War we find pilots, who weren't clones, getting into planes that were nothing more than an engine strapped to a canvas wrapped frame, taking them into the air and firing machine guns at other pilots. Insain, yes, but they did it. Or what of the crew of the Huntley, who took an iron tube barely large enough to fit her crew, into open water with an explosive strapped to the end, with now way of replenishing their air, to sink a ship. Not only that, but they went after the first crew of the Huntley died in their attempt. It may be stupid, but they're soldiers, that's what they do.

 

And, despite what it may seem, it would be less costly to mass-produce an army of clones versus an army of recruits. I know averages would make this easier, but the fact is you would have to still have variety. The USA's army has attempted to cut costs by making uniforms that a soldier puts on and then puts in the wash for x-amount of time...it then shrinks to be the right size. Even so, this is more expensive than having everyone be the same size and then having x-amount of the same uniforms. It's all a matter of cost-efficiency, and an army that has no 'human needs' to speak of would cost less than an army of personality-ridden recruits. By the way, has anyone considered Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome? Clones would, odds are, not suffer fro, the psychological strain of combat and watching their buddies blown to bits as compared to emotional, compassionate humans. An army full of soldiers suffering from such strains be wasting money on paying for psychological evalutations when compared to an army that has trained-from-birth fighting machines who don't care--they simply follow orders.

 

Thay may be trained from birth, but they would get to know their fellow clones while training, as well as between combat situations. They would form relationships, unless they were modified to feel no emotion, which may or may not be the case.

[Jahled]

Gat said loads of points...

 

Ok the images you use are from the original movies which GL made before all that flash graphics stuff he's been using in the prequals; they generally look the same size to me on screen despite having non-cloned actors underneath that shiny white armour.

 

Your right about WW1 pilots having a reasonably crap chance of survival, but at least they are fighting in an atmosphere and where there is a (abit slim) chance of crash landing.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

There are some occasions where all of the stormtroopers are the same size. For example, wehn 3P0 and R2 are found in the closet (I'm assuming it was a closet) in the hangar controle room, all of the stormtroopers who came in were of the same height.

 

In the end I'm not saying there weren't any clones in the Empire, I'm just saying they weren't all clones. Cloning would make sence. It ensure that your troops are all of the same abilities, but I still think that having to buy each clone would cost more than training a single recruit... but then, the thread's topic isn't about cost effective production .

 

 

EDIT:Jahled, you should put your quote back up, the one you had in red. It was a good point, even though it was from the EU.

 

Im just wondering, why hasn't anyone made the point that all of the differences we've seen in the movies be mutations or improvements upon the original sample? Maybe the Empire started cloning smaller stormtroopers for confined spaces . (this has been said to some degree, I know)

[Jahled]

EDIT:Jahled, you should put your quote back up, the one you had in red. It was a good point, even though it was from the EU.

 

***mumbles about real-time forum debates***

 

Ok, given you asked, I will because it was a valid point.

 

Star Wars Empire Volume One 'Betrayal'

 

Page Two.

 

**The scene: Coruscant 'a couple of weeks before the events in a New Hope.' Darth Vader is testing the skills of a group of Stormtroopers using his Lightsaber to deflect their shots at him. In the end he shouts enough and kills one of the Stormtroopers.

 

Vader: My compliments. I trust the entire detachment has such precise marksmanship?

 

Officer: Uh, of course Lord Vader. As usual, sir, they're identical in every way.

 

Vader: The Empire can always use more mindless automations. See they're on Governor Tarkin's transport before nightfall.

 

Throughout this publication Stormtroopers are refered to as 'drones.'

 

GAT shows his strength of character quite frankly for requesting me to repost this ( I deleated it because I realized the source is EU) for probably the following point I subsequently put forward. And given the ongoing debate here I repect you for that dude!

 

This was published in 2003 after the release date of AotC, inwhich the Star Wars Universe was finally given it's detail of the 'Clone Wars,' and a broader hint of the nature of the Empire Palpatine has so fiendishly created. The troopers are clones. Most references quoted by people concerning are drawn from EU stuff created before AotC was released and of course were in the dark about George Lucas' vision as far of his mythos goes; other than the usual Stormtroopers' faces can't be seen sort of thing (other than in one panel of 'Enemy of the Empire,' or the 'Dark Force Rising,' comics(who were clones) but always eels slip through the 'official' net). Basically, the EU must adapt itself around GL's movie vision as it unfolds, it more or less has done since the first two prequals, and will yet again be forced to after the upcomming third installment. I think this is what I said earlier that you asked me to repost GAT dude; you've no doubt got some cunning counter-reply to blast me away( ) but none of this is an ego issue is it...

 

This to me finally confirms that Stormtroopers; in their role as 'Shocktroopers,'are clones. All of them. Of course the Empire had vast quantities of other military units available to them comprised of non-clones (because you can't comprise an entire field army with elite commandos; plus it takes away the concept of shocktroopers if non-shocktroopers comprise only a non-as effective minority...); logic would dictate they would have to to hold their Empire together; but we never got see much else of the SW Universe according to GL's vision in the original movies other than Tattooine (hunting for the droids), Besbin & Hoth (in their role as Shocktroopers) and Endor (as the latter but being defeated by fluffy-teddy bears *).

 

*GL got one or two things slightly wrong.

[SOCL]

Also, it seems that the idea of clones doing different duties is difficult to grasp. The truth is, though, we have clonetroopers who are trained to be pilots, we have cloned troopers who are trained to be commandos, we have cloned troopers who are trained to be gunners, etc. These are specific-role clones, so it's not hard to see that the TIE pilots are most likely simply an evolved version of clone pilots. Again, Jahled made a good point: Who in the right mind would suit up in a unshielded, weak-frame, no-environment-in-cockpit fighter that relies on numbers alone to win against X-Wings and Y-Wings? I believe a bunch of clones trained for the sole purpose of piloting fighetrs would...anyone else would simply be stupid.

If we go back to the First World War we find pilots, who weren't clones, getting into planes that were nothing more than an engine strapped to a canvas wrapped frame, taking them into the air and firing machine guns at other pilots. Insain, yes, but they did it.

Point taken, but consider the fact that in the Great War, pilots began by only taking recon flights for ground troops. The odds of them getting shot down by another plane at the beginning were little to none, the pilots having to rely on their individual marksmanship with pistols! Additionally, being shot down by a ground-based rifle or machine gun was also quite low. My point is, the pilots of the Great War aren't exactly the best example since their mission began quite differently from that of a fighter plane. Additionally, the pilots of the Great did not have available to them aeroplanes with armor, much less shields, where pilots in Star Wars have always have the option of simply not being a pilot or even becoming a Rebel pilot where they could fly a shielded fighter. I realize that like in the Great War, TIE pilots don't have a choice of fighter available to them, but then again, fighters with shielding exist; in the Great War, there was only one style of fighter ("nothing more than an engine strapped to a canvas wrapped frame").

 

Or what of the crew of the Huntley, who took an iron tube barely large enough to fit her crew, into open water with an explosive strapped to the end, with now way of replenishing their air, to sink a ship. Not only that, but they went after the first crew of the Huntley died in their attempt. It may be stupid, but they're soldiers, that's what they do.

Yes, but did these servicepersons volunteer or were ordered to take on this mission? I imagine TIE pilots are ordered to do their jobs, additionally, if they're clones they are probably 'programmed' to follow any and all orders.

 

Thay may be trained from birth, but they would get to know their fellow clones while training, as well as between combat situations. They would form relationships, unless they were modified to feel no emotion, which may or may not be the case.

Well, the only problem is that we don't know if all or at least some are genetically engineered to be unemotional. I would assume yes--since it would make a far more efficient soldier--but with no evidence to back this....

 

Also, I wanted to address the fact that many people seem to believe that the Galactic Empire has to have a HUGE Armed Forces. I mean, yes, they need a HUGE force to control the galaxy, but this doesn't mean that the entire starfleet or the army has to be as enormous as we might think. Going with examples presented in the movies, we never really see enormous amounts of ships or troops that prove a starfleet in the billions or so-forth. I mean, yes, there's the Death Star and its enormous amount of troopers and so-forth, but this could be a large fraction of the Empire's forces versus the theory people have about it being a relatively small amount of forces. Again, you do indeed need a large force to control the galaxy, but where in the movies are we told of HUGE amounts of anything? Additionally, if the Galactic Empire's starfleet was that huge, why was it dismissed as being a threat by Mon Mothma during the breifing aboard Home One before the Battle of Endor?

 

Just a (crazy) idea.

 

By the way, did any one else find it weird that Home One is the name of the Mon Calamari vessel? To me it was simply the ship's callsign during the Battle of Endor (similar to the Millenium Falcon being 'Gold One'). Some people might say that ships with names (not fighters) would be called by their names only, but again, the Millenium Falcon has a proper name and is simply referred to as 'Gold One'. So, in order to mask the name of an ex-Mon Calamari cruise ship they would call it 'Home One' so that way the Empire--if they were listening in--wouldn't know the ship's true name. This led me to assume that all Rebel warships at the Battle of Endor have callsigns 'Home [number]'.

 

Again, another (not-so-crazy) idea.

 

 

About the prequels and canon:

Since The Phantom Menace came out, Lucas and LucasFilm has kept a tight reign on everything Star Wars, trying to keep everything in the EU and so-forth in line with the movies. This leads me to believe that there is a possibility that all EU material released post-Episode I might very possibly be canon--after all, the official iste lists most of it. For instance, the likelyhood that novels like Jedi Trial or Labyrinth of Evil--due to Lucas' (& LucasFilm's) tight hold and checking-up--be official canon. Just a(nother crazy) idea.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

When you mentioned Heir to the Empire and Dark Force Rising you reminded me that Thrawn had cloned stormtroopers Jahled. I know he was brilliant and all, but he must have gotten this idea from somewhere. This, combined with the your post-that-was-delted-but-reposted are beginning to sway me closer to the clone side (though I still stand by my arguments).

 

In WW I you could consider the Tri-plane to be of a different style. Compared to the other aircraft of the time it had superior maneuverability. I do take your point, however. The differences were really quite small, nothing compared to those between a TIE Fighter and an X-Wing.

 

In reference to the Huntley, I believe the third (and final) crew was ordered to perform their mission. I don't think you could have gotten anyone to volunteer to get into a ship that had killed two previous crews.

 

if the Galactic Empire's starfleet was that huge, why was it dismissed as being a threat by Mon Mothma during the breifing aboard Home One before the Battle of Endor?

 

My take on this was the fact that the fleet was spread out ("in a vain attempt to engage us"). Even if the Imperial Star Fleet was massive, having their forces dispersed would greatly reduce it's efficiency. We can assume that, because the Rebellion was based inthe Outer Rime, the Imperial fleet was forced to cover an area substantially larger than before. I'm only playing devil's advocate however.

 

I'm now of the opinion that the Empire may not have been as large, in terms of troops and ships, as is commonly believed. If we look at the Galaxy Map in the front of the NJO books we see that the galaxy isn's as large as one would suppose. The Unown Regions account for a good ammount of space, as does the Corperate Sector and Hutt space. Subtracting these we see that the Empire only had a "small" area of space to handle. A starfleet of thousands of shps, and perhaps 20-30 million troops could easily handle this. Local security could also take some of the burden, with Imperial Intelligence keeping tabs on them.

 

As for the Home One I had always felt that that was always a vague name for a rebel ship. I thought there was some reference to it by another name, but hte details escape me.

 

You take on the prequels and canon, encompasing the post-TPM EU make sence, but then there are some strange things in the NJO that we need to accept (some of the views on the force, Chewie's death, Kyp Duron (sorry, I hated him)). On the topic of canon, if we say the the movies are irrifutable, and the only true source for canon, then aren't we obliged to accept midichlorians, despite how much we hate the concept? GL didn't add anything to AotC to counter them, he simply let it fade away, but unfortunately every time we watch TPM, there is is. If so, then there are other questions relating to the Force that we would have to ask: if they're in your blood, can't they be extracted to create Jedi? Couldn't you make yourself more powerful by adding them to your blood? What connects the midichlorians to the Force? Do the midichlorians become evil if their host does? What is their favorite food? All questions we would have to contomplate.

[Jahled]

Emm... well you may be right about the Empire not necessarily being comprised of a military machine omnipresant as may be largely presumed.

 

What was Tarkin implying when he said 'Fear of this battle station will keep the local systems in order!' There was not an all pervading Imperial military presance on systems similar to Alderaan? Tarkin would not have destroyed Alderaan if their was an Imperial military presance maintaining Imperial Order, would he?

 

So perhaps it was the 'dreaded' Imperial star fleet with it's capability to reduce the surface of planets to molten slag and the embarked regiments of stormtroopers that maintained order through out the Empire, except of course on key-worlds...

 

...

[SOCL]

I'm now of the opinion that the Empire may not have been as large, in terms of troops and ships, as is commonly believed. If we look at the Galaxy Map in the front of the NJO books we see that the galaxy isn's as large as one would suppose. The Unown Regions account for a good ammount of space, as does the Corperate Sector and Hutt space. Subtracting these we see that the Empire only had a "small" area of space to handle. A starfleet of thousands of shps, and perhaps 20-30 million troops could easily handle this. Local security could also take some of the burden, with Imperial Intelligence keeping tabs on them.

That depends on whether the NJO galaxy map is official (since numermous other books refer to the Unknown Regions as being about a third the size of the Galaxy Proper if not larger)...but that's EU, so moving on....

 

As for the Home One I had always felt that that was always a vague name for a rebel ship. I thought there was some reference to it by another name, but hte details escape me.

Do you get what I mean, though? I mean, throughout the EU the ship is referred to as Home One as though it were the vessel's true name, but consider. This is a Mon Calamari cruiseliner converted for military duty, something that is more-than-likely illegal. Probably having to hide-out from the Empire and not wanting the Empire to track down say the manufacturer or the original owner and punish them, the Rebel Alliance decides to stop calling the vessel 'Home One' as a callsign as long as it is deployed with the fleet and engaged in combat. Other vessels in the Rebel fleet--also wanting to avoid exact identification--are given similar call signs, so a Corellian corvette might be 'Home Six' and a Nebulon-B might be 'Home Three'. Thoughts? Another idea (that just occured to me) is that this converted cruiseliner probably had a civilian name and needed a more martial name, so they temporarily call it 'Home One'. After a while, the name sticks and it becomes the ships new name. Again, just an idea.

 

On the topic of canon, if we say the the movies are irrifutable, and the only true source for canon, then aren't we obliged to accept midichlorians, despite how much we hate the concept?

Well, movie is canon, plain and simple; we can't pick-and-choose.

[Jahled]

But a good idea dude!

 

BTW...along similar lines one of my neighbours is converting his 4x4 into a tank.* He reckons it should be able to just about take on an Abrahams tank when fully converted. He lives at the furthest reaches of my street and looks like a lobster. He's been peacefully 'cruising' around my neighbour hood for years now, but says he feels threatened by the American Army. He's going to join up with some Volvo estates converted with great cunning into British army Warrior-classarmoured cars and Liberate London at the battle of Downing Street.

 

 

 

 

*I may be making this up.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

Hmm, I've come across an interesting bit of information. I'm surprised this hasn't been pointed out, since it is on StarWars.com:

 

The titular clone troopers of Episode II were designed to strongly hint at their eventual evolution into the Empire's stormtrooper ranks

 

I think that this, in conjunction with other arguments here, can safely put the argument to rest

[SOCL]

*I may be making this up.

I almost believed it, too. What with the motorized Lazy Boy incident and all.

 

...wait, I just realized something. Was that little story of your supposed to in someway to tie to this:

But a good idea dude!

Are you relating my idea to your "neighbors" idea?

 

 

The titular clone troopers of Episode II were designed to strongly hint at their eventual evolution into the Empire's stormtrooper ranks

I think that this, in conjunction with other arguments here, can safely put the argument to rest

So it would seem, but leave it up to the official site to be so vague. I mean, they simply it hint at eventually becoming what will be stormtroopers, but it doesn't say that stormtroopers are clones.* Yes, it may imply this, but by simply stating "clone troopers", who ever wrote it still leaves the idea open to debate. In other words, the quote may very well be interpreted as stormtroopers are clones, but it may also be interpretted as the clone troopers being the inspiration for stormtroopers. Now, whether 'inspiration' means the basic look and feel of stormtroopers was inspired by clonetroopers or whether stormtroopers were inspired to be clones because of clonetrooper inspiration is also open to debate. A good quote to bring up GAT, but it somehow only thickens the plot (if not frustrates us over LucasFilm's continued vague references).

 

 

*Yes, I know I'm being inconsistant with which side I take, but I'm trying to argue both sides.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

If we look closely at the words used, however, we see that it says "their eventual evolution", their being the clone troopers. Now, had it said inspiration, the precurser, or something alone those lines, I would agree with you, however I think the chosen wording eliminates any possible misconceptions.

[Guest Scathane]

The smaller sizes of hypothetical Stormtrooper armor would have a lower cost as they use fewer materials.

True, this could hypothetically be true...

 

That you are producing more than one size doesn't increase/decrease the cost of production, it simply means that you won't be able to produce the same volume as you would of clone trooper armor.

Do yourself a favor and re-read what you've written here...

 

Okay, finished? Then let me ask you a question: why wouldn't you be able to produce as big a volume as you would for Clonetroopers? Right! Because the cost of a single armor has gone up. Producing more than one size does increase the relative cost of production, dude! Not being able to produce as big a volume is exactly the same thing!

 

I very much doubt that the Empire said to KDY in the development of the ISD "Well, the average height of a Stormtrooper is "X", so you're going to have to make the ship twenty meters longer, and five wider to accomodate". Does the U.S. army say "well, this Abrams tank can't accomodate a driver over two and a quarter meters, so we'll have to make it bigger"? No, they say, sorry my large friend, you can't drive this tank. Each roll would be filled by a person who meets the qualifications for that roll. For example, from what we see of the TIE pilots in the movies, they are of a rather short stock. Also, according to the StarWars.com, only 10% of eligable TIE Pilot candidates are chosen for duty. I think from that it's safe to assume that the Empire has no problems narrowing prospecitve candidates.

I wouldn't know... But since size is an extra factor, it downgrades the size of the resource you're pooling from...

 

Or the Empire could take the same rout as the American Army. The American training regiment is as harsh as it is because it wants to break their recruits down, and then mold them into the soldier they want. I also think paying a trainer is cheaper than paying to operate a cloneing facility.

So, you even admit that training takes longer because your first have to break your recruits. Longer training means higher cost. Furthermore, I doubt that operating a cloning facility costs more than paying not one but multiple trainers. One facility can produce thousands of clones whereas one trainer can probably handle no more than thirty recruits. So you'd need a lot of trainers to train and pay whilst training...

 

Or they would calculate an average and assign rations for each trooper.

That's what I said.

 

An army doesn't run in a way that is tailored for each trooper, they run as a single body, and every one gets the same ammount of equipment and food (depending on rank that is) as the next man. There is no need to cater to each individual's needs.

Again, that's what I said.

 

I know what you're saying, but simply because there is diversity to some extent doesn't mean mass production isn't possible.

I didn't say that, I just mentioned it would increase capital expenditure.

[Stellar_Magic]

You know something about this debate scares me, and that is no one has brought up the liabilities of using clones in a combat situation. You say that having the same abilities and the unwavering ability to take orders is a benefit, unfortunately in combat situations the opposite is true.

 

With your stormtroopers I'd expect the Empire to have fallen shortly after Yavin and never attacked Hoth. Here's why.

 

Firstly, your clones require a significantly trained, seasoned, and experienced pool of officers to use effectively. If an officer of lesser skill was in command the troops would follow however misguided or stupid orders which they were given, resulting in the death of the clones. (Just think about russian casualties in WWII when their troops weren't allowed to retreat, or were shot for disobeying orders.) Not only that but the timeline for the stories strongly suggests that no such body of trained and seasoned officers existed before the begining of the Empire (All the officers appear to be either clones or Jedi) meaning that the officer pool would have an overall lack in real world training and understanding of combat.

 

Secondly your clones are predictable, and the one thing that is most certain to ensure survival in combat is a level of unpredictability. This is especially true when it comes to fighter pilots. As Gunter Rall wrote about his experiences in World War II he said that many of the pilots which you'd think would survive fore a long time did not, and those that did survive for a long time and became aces were of a different sort. He said that acrobatic pilots were often easily shot down because their maneuvers were to precise and predictable, and that wingmen had a greater chance of being shot down because their flying was dictated by the leader. Because your clones are all trained the same way for the same jobs they act the same way in combat. If you use a tactic against them and it works, it will work almost exactly the same because the clones (especially if their unemotional) will react in the exact same way.

 

To counter this stormtrooper regiments would require enlisted personnel to ensure their effectiveness and keep them from being jumped or ambushed with the same results every time. Secondly enlisted men would act as something of a check on stupid moves by their officers, and preventing more casualties in suicidal attacks on fortified positions or walkers.

 

In short, for stormtroopers to be effective 'Shocktroopers' they require a diversity in thought, loyalty, and in this case genes.

[Jahled]

You know something about this debate scares me, and that is no one has brought up the liabilities of using clones in a combat situation.

 

Yoda didn't think so...

 

You say that having the same abilities...

 

I don't think anyone has said that dude! Even in AotC there would appear to be different types of troopers in the army Yoda brings to Geonosis.

 

Firstly, your clones require a significantly trained, seasoned, and experienced pool of officers to use effectively. If an officer of lesser skill was in command the troops would follow however misguided or stupid orders which they were given, resulting in the death of the clones.

 

This makes no sense whatso ever. The first point is more or less obvious for any officer in command of any troops in any army, which is why we have rank structures to try and ensuree the latter point doesn't happen.

 

(Just think about russian casualties in WWII when their troops weren't allowed to retreat, or were shot for disobeying orders.)

 

This as an an example highlighting the above point also makes no sense to what i'm struggling to comprehend you are suggesting. Despite huge loss of life, the Russians overcame the Germans(and granted Hitler's blatent stupidity in ignoring what his generals conducting that campaign were telling him helping) the Red Army was by no means scant of capable officers commanding there men. Granted, Stalin and his Communist murderers did cull a great many capable officers, but the Red Army was efficient enough to defeat the Germans on the Eastern Front; who were arguably the most efficient and modern army of WWII, not least down to lack of overall dependance on rank. Anyway, shooting there own soldiers was not something the Russians did exclusively did they.

 

Not only that but the timeline for the stories strongly suggests that no such body of trained and seasoned officers existed before the begining of the Empire (All the officers appear to be either clones or Jedi) meaning that the officer pool would have an overall lack in real world training and understanding of combat.

 

The Empire emerges victorious from the Clone Wars, and there were people like General Veers commanding Stormtroopers at Hoth.

 

Secondly your clones are predictable,

 

Why do you assume this of people trained from birth in combat? They would be some of the most formidable opponents you could face, and for all the wrong reasons their opponents would presume. A four year old having the SW equivelant of 'The art of War,' for a bed time story really is not going to behave in a predictable manor in any aspect other their efficiency to opperate as an extremely effective killing machine.

 

and the one thing that is most certain to ensure survival in combat is a level of unpredictability. This is especially true when it comes to fighter pilots. As Gunter Rall wrote about his experiences in World War II he said that many of the pilots which you'd think would survive fore a long time did not, and those that did survive for a long time and became aces were of a different sort. He said that acrobatic pilots were often easily shot down because their maneuvers were to precise and predictable, and that wingmen had a greater chance of being shot down because their flying was dictated by the leader.

 

Again, I see no reason why a clone cannot be trained to think with his own initiative, especially(excellent Gunter Rall bit btw ), in the midst of combat. Given he's been trained from birth he's probably more likely to wield the unpredictability-factor in a combat areana.

 

Because your clones are all trained the same way for the same jobs they act the same way in combat. If you use a tactic against them and it works, it will work almost exactly the same because the clones (especially if their unemotional) will react in the exact same way.

 

Again, I don't see an basis for this to hold true. A clone is not a vegatable, it still thinks and is capable of initiative. He is more likely to use his imagination (why assume they lack this?) creatively than someone with less training and combat experiance.

 

To counter this stormtrooper regiments would require enlisted personnel to ensure their effectiveness and keep them from being jumped or ambushed with the same results every time. Secondly enlisted men would act as something of a check on stupid moves by their officers, and preventing more casualties in suicidal attacks on fortified positions or walkers.

 

So I can't agree with this given what I said above.

 

Fun this!

 

Edit: One day, I will know how to spell.

[Stellar_Magic]

Yoda didn't think so...

 

Remember Yoda was fighting droids which have similar (if not greater) liabilities then clones. Perhaps I should explain why these clones would have such liabilities in initiative, flexibility, and predictability.

 

First lets start off with initiative. The films demonstrate an intense requirement for direction that is only logical in a need for micromanagement of the force. In AotC we see clonetroopers being personally lead by Jedi in roles equivalent to platoon commands or smaller. Each of the clones requires direction to engage the enemy... Remember the scene where Anakin and Obi wan yell at the pilot to shoot down Dooku, if he had initiative he would have used his other weapons against the speeder bike (how bout some more blaster fire boys?) At the least he would have reported seeing Dooku or being out of missiles before hand. Yoda has to personally direct the weapons fire of the artillery batteries, surely any seriously trained officer would have directed his attack on those vessels at the start of the engagement.

 

Also connected with initiative you argue that the units will unquestionably obey orders. In order to have a unit that does this the organism must no longer retain an idea of self or must have more fear of dishonor or punishment for disobedience then of death. In the case of these clones we find that only one of these reasons seems to fit very well, the loss of a sense of self. This loss also removes from the being the capacity for imagination and initiative. You simply can't have it both ways.

 

This as an an example highlighting the above point also makes no sense to what i'm struggling to comprehend you are suggesting. Despite huge loss of life, the Russians overcame the Germans(and granted Hitler's blatent stupidity in ignoring what his generals conducting that campaign were telling him helping) the Red Army was by no means scant of capable officers commanding there men. Granted, Stalin and his Communist murderers did cull a great many capable officers, but the Red Army was efficient enough to defeat the Germans on the Eastern Front; who were arguably the most efficient and modern army of WWII, not least down to lack of overall dependance on rank. Anyway, shooting there own soldiers was not something the Russians did exclusively did they.

 

Thank you for making my point, why did russian losses grow to such insane numbers? Because they weren't allowed by the command structure to demonstrate initiative, any deviation from the norm was supress resulting in kill to loss ratios for the germans that are nearly equal to Modern American combat statistics.

 

Predictability, well here we go because as I stated earlier clones have been stripped of initiative and humanity. In a sense they have become automations, and like all automations they react the same way every time to every threat. You might be able to argue that personailty differences could create the needed unpredictable nature, but as I'm about to explain there are no personality differences in fresh clones, and because of the way personalities are formed there would be all but no difference in aged clones.

 

Lets see personality is created by two things, life experience and genetics (Nature and Nurture) because all the clones use basically the same genes (ARC troopers, gunners, and commanders would use different genetic changes then the average soldier) and are given an identical or nearly identical training regime their personalities would be impersceptably identical. By the time these units enter combat their personality has become fully formed and therefore all but unchangeable.

 

Now on to some of your rebuttles with the officer pool.

 

The Empire emerges victorious from the Clone Wars, and there were people like General Veers commanding Stormtroopers at Hoth.

 

General Veers was obviously a capable officer, but can the same be said of the vast majority of imperial officers. Veers may have been a unique case, and probably was considering the performance of imperial forces in other battles in the OT. It also seems to me that the officer pool wouldn't be all that well trained, most of the Jedi and Clone officers have disappeared by the OT. This loss would be roughly equivalent to Stalin's purge of the Red Army in the 1930s and 1940. (Which is why the Germans won so many victories until 43.) You simply don't have the sources of knowledge to teach the next generation of officers. Sure you've got the imperial academy, but they're defecting in droves and who exactly is doing the teaching?

[Jahled]

Remember Yoda was fighting droids which have similar (if not greater) liabilities then clones. Perhaps I should explain why these clones would have such liabilities in initiative, flexibility, and predictability.

 

First lets start off with initiative. The films demonstrate an intense requirement for direction that is only logical in a need for micromanagement of the force. In AotC we see clonetroopers being personally lead by Jedi in roles equivalent to platoon commands or smaller. Each of the clones requires direction to engage the enemy... Remember the scene where Anakin and Obi wan yell at the pilot to shoot down Dooku, if he had initiative he would have used his other weapons against the speeder bike (how bout some more blaster fire boys?) At the least he would have reported seeing Dooku or being out of missiles before hand. Yoda has to personally direct the weapons fire of the artillery batteries, surely any seriously trained officer would have directed his attack on those vessels at the start of the engagement.

 

Dude, these guys are Jedi!! Who would you take your orders from combat; you regiment commander or Superman? Who is to say they haven't already achieved battlefield results anyway? The sepertist command are already begining to panic as the Jedi enter the fray after being rescued by the clones....

 

Also connected with initiative you argue that the units will unquestionably obey orders. In order to have a unit that does this the organism must no longer retain an idea of self or must have more fear of dishonor or punishment for disobedience then of death. In the case of these clones we find that only one of these reasons seems to fit very well, the loss of a sense of self. This loss also removes from the being the capacity for imagination and initiative. You simply can't have it both ways.

 

Err... you appear to be squarking gibberish here dude. Unquestionably obaying orders could be interpreted as achieving mission objective, such as defense or offense. What on earth are you on about with this dishonor thing? It doesan't make any sense in this argument, and never did historically just in case you were refering. The Samurai frequently retreated, and hid in ditches, etc.

 

You seem to assume the mind of a clone as something other than a unique individual! Why? They are simply people bred from Spaarti tanks and versed in combat from infants....

 

Than you for making my point, why did russian losses grow to such insane numbers? Because they weren't allowed by the command structure to demonstrate initiative, any deviation from the norm was supress resulting in kill to loss ratios for the germans that are nearly equal to Modern American combat statistics.

 

You simply do not appear to have any understanding of the Eastern Front whatso ever. Read a very good book called Stalingrad by Antony Beevor for example and the horrific loss of life might become a bit clearer. The Russian Soldier was at the mercy of an enemy that didn't want to treat him as a human as a prisoner, but also under the guidance of

an idiology so overwelmed with it's self-rightiousness, it cast aside human life as something expendable for the greater good.

 

I don't agree with your point about initiave in the Russian army whatso ever. The Russian T34, KV1 and KV2 tanks had better mobility over snow because they were lighter, had wide tracks and good ground clearance; a big advantage over the German Tanks, who were rapidly grinding to a hault due to German logistics failing in the bitter weather. Sorry dude, but that's an army with initiative! They wage war with equipment that can cope with the terrain.

 

Predictability, well here we go because as I stated earlier clones have been stripped of initiative and humanity. In a sense they have become automations, and like all automations they react the same way every time to every threat. You might be able to argue that personailty differences could create the needed unpredictable nature, but as I'm about to explain there are no personality differences in fresh clones, and because of the way personalities are formed there would be all but no difference in aged clones.

 

Lets see personality is created by two things, life experience and genetics (Nature and Nurture) because all the clones use basically the same genes (ARC troopers, gunners, and commanders would use different genetic changes then the average soldier) and are given an identical or nearly identical training regime their personalities would be impersceptably identical. By the time these units enter combat their personality has become fully formed and therefore all but unchangeable.

 

None of this makes sense anywhere other than your own head! We've established that clones as human beings are not automations and thus wouldn't suffer all the faults you're outlining above.

Edited April 6, 2005 by Jahled

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

First lets start off with initiative. The films demonstrate an intense requirement for direction that is only logical in a need for micromanagement of the force. In AotC we see clonetroopers being personally lead by Jedi in roles equivalent to platoon commands or smaller. Each of the clones requires direction to engage the enemy... Remember the scene where Anakin and Obi wan yell at the pilot to shoot down Dooku, if he had initiative he would have used his other weapons against the speeder bike (how bout some more blaster fire boys?) At the least he would have reported seeing Dooku or being out of missiles before hand. Yoda has to personally direct the weapons fire of the artillery batteries, surely any seriously trained officer would have directed his attack on those vessels at the start of the engagement.

 

You have to remember that Anakin and Obi-Wan weren't in that transport to enter the battle. They were just rescued from what would ceratinly been their deaths, and they were in the company of a senator that earlier in the movie the Jedi Council was doing all it could to keep safe. So, although they outranked them by being Jedi, they weren't there to command those clone troopers.

 

As for the initiative, if you were flying through a combat zone, explosions going off on all sides of your ship, would you consider a 60 year-old man on an unarmed speeder bike running away from the battle a top priority, even if he were being escorted by two armed fighters? The clones didn't know who Dooku was. They weren't being trained on Kameno to fight Dooku and his cronies, they were simply being trained. Add to thise a top-priority senator who happens to be in the back of your ship and I think the answer is clear.

 

As for the missiles, well...

 

Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme board the Clone Trooper Transport.

 

"Thank you for the rescue" Obi-Wan said.

"We're out of missiles"

"Erm... ok."

 

The transport lifts off and soars away. A short while later three black specks appear on the sand below.

 

"I see Dooku"

"What!? How could you know it's him, I just sensed him through the Force!" Obi-Wan exclaimed.

"I see Dooku, but we're out of missiles."

 

As for the artillery, at the beginning of the battle those ships weren't trying to escape, and those batteries were most likely providing support for the infantry and forward regiments during the height of the combat, like any seriousely trained officer would have.

 

Also connected with initiative you argue that the units will unquestionably obey orders. In order to have a unit that does this the organism must no longer retain an idea of self or must have more fear of dishonor or punishment for disobedience then of death. In the case of these clones we find that only one of these reasons seems to fit very well, the loss of a sense of self. This loss also removes from the being the capacity for imagination and initiative. You simply can't have it both ways.

 

It is quite possible to unquestionably follow orders, but still retain a sence of self, imagination and initiative, without any of the punishments you've mentioned. If a soldier is sent on a suicidal mission he has objectives set out for him. It is up to him how he goes about completing each objective. This requires both imagination and initiative. I would point to any modern military to support this. While each soldier has a name, they are all dressed alike to make them less individual. Are modern armies flawed (in this respect that is) as well?

 

Thank you for making my point, why did russian losses grow to such insane numbers? Because they weren't allowed by the command structure to demonstrate initiative, any deviation from the norm was supress resulting in kill to loss ratios for the germans that are nearly equal to Modern American combat statistics.

 

Who said clones weren't allowed to demonstrate initiative? They are sentient beings, capable of independant thought. If a missile is slowly heading towards a group of troopers, will they stand there thinking "well, I wasn't told to move, so I guess I get blown to hell". On top of that, it's quite possible that some clones were created to be squad leaders, that were less "docile" that their common breatheren. I point again to the commander Yoda spoke to at the Forward Command Centre.

 

Predictability, well here we go... there are no personality differences in fresh clones, and because of the way personalities are formed there would be all but no difference in aged clones.

 

Lets see personality is created by two things, life experience and genetics (Nature and Nurture) because all the clones use basically the same genes... and are given an identical or nearly identical training regime their personalities would be impersceptably identical. By the time these units enter combat their personality has become fully formed and therefore all but unchangeable.

 

While the clones develope at an increased rate physically, they would not [/i]mentally[/i]. When the first clone army was sent into combat in AotC, how old were they, five, six years old? Their minds would still be quite malleable at that age. Even if this were not the case, the survivors would be more well versed in combat than they were before. A soldier who fought all the way through a war would gain skills based on his experiences, would learn new techniques to deal with situations, would adapt. When I started my job I had no idea what I was doing. I have since learned ways to perform certain tasks more efficiently. Each clone would have a different set of experiences from combat. Not all of them would have engaged a droideka, or watched a squad of troops attempt to break an enemy strongpoint. From these they would take away knowledge... that, and I doubt they only learned one way to deal with any given situation when they were trained.

 

At the risk of ranting, I would like you to consider military combat in the 18th and early 19th century. It was basically to armies lining up and shooting at each other, with the odd horse charge, with some cannons firing from behind. I'd say this would make for pretty damn predictable combat, and yet generals like Napoleon, Wellington and Brock managed to out-smart their opponents often, and that with troops who couldn't even look to their left or right, but were to simply stand, fire, reload, and march when they were told.

 

Now on to some of your rebuttles with the officer pool.

 

General Veers was obviously a capable officer, but can the same be said of the vast majority of imperial officers. Veers may have been a unique case, and probably was considering the performance of imperial forces in other battles in the OT. It also seems to me that the officer pool wouldn't be all that well trained, most of the Jedi and Clone officers have disappeared by the OT. This loss would be roughly equivalent to Stalin's purge of the Red Army in the 1930s and 1940. (Which is why the Germans won so many victories until 43.) You simply don't have the sources of knowledge to teach the next generation of officers. Sure you've got the imperial academy, but they're defecting in droves and who exactly is doing the teaching?

 

So how do we know that all, or even most, of the clone officers were gone by the time of the OT? On top of that, there is almost a twenty year gap between RotS and ANH, pleanty of time for capable officers to rise up throug the ranks, and gain experience in combat. What about the young recruited officers who fought in the Clone Wars? Perhaps they weren't leading the armies, but there may well have been recruited officers who survived the Clone Wars to command in the Empire.

[SOCL]

While the clones develope at an increased rate physically, they would not [/i]mentally[/i]. When the first clone army was sent into combat in AotC, how old were they, five, six years old?

I had never thought of that. These are kids going into combat within the body of...well...Jango Fett. Consider:

 

"Hey, Tee-Kay Five-Six, lay down some fire for me!"

"Will do!"

"So, you want to play with Legos later?"

"Yeah, sure, I just got the awesome Deep Freeze Hoth Defender! It's so cool! Gat! Damned droids!"

 

Okay, maybe not Legos, but you get the idea.

 

Okay, the fact that they're so young and have been training since childbirth to fight, kill, and see death leads me to believe that even if they did have emotions, killing and so forth wouldn't mean much to them. I mean, they've been basically brainwashed to consider it basically normal, so a conversation about going to a bar after a battle while destroying droid after droid doesn't seem too unreasonable. I mean, these are people who have trained for at least five years to do nothing but kill and destroy, so I'm sure they could probably be ordering some cover-fire while moving to flank the enemy along the ridge and be wondering if they left the oven on...fighting is second nature, nearly instinctive. So, I suppose what I'm trying to say is that with training drilled into their heads, they don't have to really worry about standard fighting as much as they do devising a tactic to get around some droid outpost and surprise them from the rear (again, while wondering if they fed the cat).

[Trejiuvanat]

As for the officer thing, there's word that a younger Captain Tarkin will appear at some point of ROTS, so this proves that nearing the end of the Clone Wars there were already normal human officers serving the Republic/Empire.

 

I think we could safely speculate that if Palpatine had planned to annihilate the Jedi at the end of the Clone Wars he would have definitely begin to train, recruit or otherwise obtain officers that would replace the Jedi as commanders of his armies. And eventually build forward to a balance between 'natural' officers and members of the naval corps (which aren't clones in the OT) and the cloned stormtrooper and fighter pilots (though their might be some natural recruits in the latter two).

[Jahled]

Well, I think that way back at the onset of this thread it was just speculated that Stormtroopers and perhaps other 'masked,' members of the Imperial armed forces were clones.

 

In the original three films we see the Empire as it is firmly established, with an officer-core clearly supervising Stormtroopers. But we also have obvious insights that within the Stormtrooper-structure their was still a structure of rank as addressed by the sholder poldrons and Veers briefing a Snowtrooper in the Battle of Hoth. This is also evident in AotC.

 

The AT-ST Walker 'pilots' were clearly not clones, nor were the 'fleet troopers' guarding the Death Star Shield bunker; which leads me to presume the Empire must of had non-clone soldiers other than security guards onboard it's Capital Ships (a theory I almost put forward, but now must drop). We have are cloned-shocktroopers, and we have are non-clone 'conventional' army soldiers. We also have an officer-elite supervising all.

 

The Jedi being Clone Soldier leaders as in someway a 'structure' is daft. In AotC Yoda goes and gets the clone army and goes to Geonosis to rescue the Jedi. Not alot of time to develop a structure there is there. Refer to my 'Superman' referance somewhere above.

[SOCL]

We have are cloned-shocktroopers, and we have are non-clone 'conventional' army soldiers. We also have an officer-elite supervising all.

Other than being typed in such a way that if you do not speak Jahled (or is it Zoot? ), yes, I think this is the basic conclusion.

 

 

Have we at last agreed and concluded a debate?

 

 

 

 

 

 

...if we have...this scares me.

[Jahled]

I've been crap at spelling for 33 years, I see no reason to attempting to do so now.

 

Try this: We have our cloned-shocktroopers, and we have our non-clone 'conventional' army soldiers. We also have an officer-elite supervising all.

 

I reckon we've broadly reached some conclusion. Not much else further argument can achieve. Star Wars ultimately exists in our individual heads, we are all at liberty to take out of it what we want.