Clone Empire.

[Jahled]

First Lucas has only said that yes stormtroopers are clones

 

Excellent! He did? Cool! That's the argument sorted in my head.

 

As I said previously; sure the Empire had a 'regular' army of sorts, we get to see a couple of these guys either looking bored on Star Destroyers, the Death Star, or being thrown out of AT-STs by two meter tall carpets. But it's clearer than ever now; guys in white armour were all clones. This explains why they 'smile in the face of death,' etc as seen in the movies, and are the Empire's obvious first choice of assualt troops for galactic conquest. I would include all those lunitics happy to hop into a TIE fighter; san shielding or atmospheric support; whilst being at the mercy of a mother ship for support. What you going to do if you see that one blow? Twiddle your thumbs untill your air runs out? You would not be able to 'persuade,' a conscript that such an option was being loyal to the Emperor. It's not called fear-induced lunacy; it's the evidence of clones bred for the job. They don't fear death because they probably aren't entirely sure of what 'life' in the regular sense is... Any expansion here on this psychological clone front in all reality probably gets the 'Blade Runner' touch where they conviently die at a suitible age to save Imperial funds on retirement funds.

 

Guard the peace with regulars in black with silly hats.

 

Edit: My quote doesn't work. Can't be arsed to sort it out; perhaps one of the lovely moderators would!

Edit numero dos: When I remember to not delete "s the world as we know it is doomed.

Edited December 1, 2004 by Jahled

[Skynxnex]

Vakundok, while this is a fan discussion your ignoring something. Lucas has established a tier system with what is 'canon'. That means the rules of his universe. If we simply ignore the EU and decide ourselves what is what then anyone can make silly assumptions.

 

The rules are we go by the movies and then the novels...if something is contradicted in the novels by the movies then the movies have priority. Thats how it works.

 

Lucas has made it clear that the clones form the foundation of the stormtroopers...but he never said that stormtroopers will continue to be clones or that clones are constantly being made. Maybe in the new movie this becomes clear, but at the moment I dont know.

[vakundok]

GAT: I lost my Last Command. What was the name of the place where Thrawn died? (Where an ISD under construction had been destroyed previously.) Maybe it was Brillbingi or something. Was it over Kuat?

 

Jahled: Try "Skynxnex" instead of "Skynxnex in the opening quote tag.

 

Skynxnex: Lucas? Please provide your evidence. I do not have all quotes from Lucas at hand, and I fear you confuse Lucas (the dreamer and director) with Lucas Licensing (a company to make money, which for example changed that tier system from canon-official to G and C level canon).

If we simply ignore the EU and decide ourselves what is what then anyone can make silly assumptions.

Yes, it is our freedom to make silly assumptions. I see no problem with that as long as we do not forget (to mention) that those silly assumptions were based only on one part of the saga and does not apply to the whole.

EDIT:

Lucas has made it clear that the clones form the foundation of the stormtroopers...but he never said that stormtroopers will continue to be clones or that clones are constantly being made.

He personally gave an explanation to the different heights voices and abilities of the CLONE stormtroopers in the original trilogy. (He mentioned two to four (depending on interpretation) templates other than Jango.) What does it mean in your interpretation if not that that the cloning will continue (at least up to the OT)?

[SOCL]

It's easier if we stick to what we get to see in the films in this instance I reckon.

I agree!

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

Bilbringi was primarily used by the Empire to refit and rearm their ships. Any ISD that was destroyed there would have been undergoing a refit.

[vakundok]

Bilbringi was primarily used by the Empire to refit and rearm their ships. Any ISD that was destroyed there would have been undergoing a refit.

No. I clearly remember that the ISD was described as being half- built and later - more correctly - as nearly completed (still lacking the tower and perhaps some terraces).

Could someone with the book quote the part when Karrde and co watch its destruction and later when Pellaeon and Thrawn overlook the remnants?

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

Checking now.

 

EDIT:Just a question: how could Karrde see the destruction of anything at Bilbringi? During the final battle "Karrde and co" were on Wayland assisting Luke and his team.

 

EDIT II:Two smugglers, Mazzic and Ellor, were responsible for the demolition of a "nearly-completed" Star Destroyer. No, this is not a quote from the books, I couldn't finde the exact spot. Now, nearly completed could be contested to indicate many things. It could be a Star Destroyer being built there. Makes sense, it is a ship yard. It could also be undergoing repaires. Sever damage to the bridge tower or other parts could require extensive rebuilding. If the ship was old enough it may be nessicary to dissassemble large parts of the ship to upgrade certain systems. Or, Kuat Drive Yards could run shipyards outside of the Kuat system (which would essentially defeat the point of my agrument, since I was pointing out that it wouldn't make sense for Kamino to give up their rights to cloning, and that there couldn't be any other facilities out there).

How did I get on to this again? Anyhow, this deserves a closer look. I'm going to dig up as much info about Kuat and the other shipbuilders and shipyards and report back!

 

EDIT III:Unfortunately there is little information on KDY or the Bilbringi Shipyards. That said, there is information stating that, while Bilbringi was operated by the Empire, the facilities there were open to every one from smugglers to businesses. So, it is possible that KDY operated out of Bilbringi, which would prove me wrong that all KDY ships were constructed at Kuat (which I've already done by pointing out the Executor was built at Fondor). All of this can be found in the SW Encyclopedia, a very useful resource up to a certain point in the timeline. I've also gone to the comic book version of the Thrawn trilogy, but much of the novels was cut out, despite the six comics per novel. If any one else has more in-depth information about both Bilbringi and KDY, it would be much appreciated. My interest has been piqued.

 

Now, on the topic of this thread, I'm starting to see where Jahled is comming from, though all of this "Lucas has stated" crap (comming from both sides) isn't really cementing anything. I think I can speak for many of us when I say I want some sources!

[vakundok]

Two smugglers, Mazzic and Ellor, were responsible for the demolition of a "nearly-completed" Star Destroyer.

Yes I am talking about that ISD. He carried something (I think transformators) to there (actually wanted to get some information). Karrde arrived shortly before the explosion and was just preparing to welcome an inspection team when it happened.

Now, on the topic of this thread, I'm starting to see where Jahled is comming from, though all of this "Lucas has stated" crap (comming from both sides) isn't really cementing anything. I think I can speak for many of us when I say I want some sources!

Well, I gave the source of the Lucas statement I used (EP 3 Set Diary on starwars.com) and I also gave the title of the EU short story. Do you want the quotes I used from that story?

 

Otherwise I usually cannot supply quotes (other than those from the web). partially because I do not read the EU and partially because my books are translated to hungarian.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

No, that's ok, I wouldn't understand them . There is just a lot of things flying around about Lucas and LucasFilms and what they have said. Sources are good .

[Guest Scathane]

So what's the score up til now? Most people still against the notion of a Clone Empire?

[vakundok]

I am against to call it Clone Empire. (Trade Federation is not Battle Droid Federation.)

 

According to the current canon policy (at least, it was current in july ):

- If you decide to use only the highest level (G): All stormtroopers are clones.

- If you decide to use the lower levels as well (C, S and N): The vast majority of the stormtroopers are clones. References: novel Shatterpoint, short story Pax Empirica.

 

That part of the Thrawn triology is a continuity error (despite it wasn't an error at that time). Since it was published in (or around) 1992, it is not that surprising.

 

Other than stormtroopers - We saw clone pilots and I saw somewhere that clone gunners would be in ep 3. I see no reason to stop using the clones in those functions when they are contiuously used as stormtroopers ...

[Jahled]

I am against to call it Clone Empire. (Trade Federation is not Battle Droid Federation.)

 

According to the current canon policy (at least, it was current in july ):

- If you decide to use only the highest level (G): All stormtroopers are clones.

- If you decide to use the lower levels as well (C, S and N): The vast majority of the stormtroopers are clones. References: novel Shatterpoint, short story Pax Empirica.

 

That part of the Thrawn triology is a continuity error (despite it wasn't an error at that time). Since it was published in (or around) 1992, it is not that surprising.

 

Other than stormtroopers - We saw clone pilots and I saw somewhere that clone gunners would be in ep 3. I see no reason to stop using the clones in those functions when they are contiuously used as stormtroopers ...

 

 

Jahled bows deeply to such wisdom. Have a

 

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TQAzA50Yhue7M3qmr1UQX1MvlalUgmlmL9NKNFdRm2LF5A3hdGr*ACuA61oXoQ2jIgfRmrKfs5J9sB6LJ6WI!K*xszgxodzIwTDYEZRVjp0UDw3IpauC1A/Stardestroyer_Woo.gif

[Guest Scathane]

So that's it? No more debate? Have we finally agreed on something?

[Skynxnex]

The only way it could be a logical and realistic clone empire is if the stormtroopers for instance do not just come from Kamino. On a galactic scale a million troops is nothing. We cant apply earth-based military reasoning to something that is galactic wide...the scale would be very off. Coruscant for instance, a core world, has well over a trillion people on it. You can tell simply by the urbanization of the planet. We know from other sources that Coruscant is not the only planet where it has become a planetary city. A million clone soldiers would not be enough to hold Coruscant for instance....now if during the Clone Wars, more planets jump in and produce clones and can do it faster and so on then I will agree that then it becomes more feasible.

[Guest Scathane]

But then there was more than only Kamino as a cloning facility, wasn't there?

[BadSamaritan]

But then there was more than only Kamino as a cloning facility, wasn't there?

 

One would assume so. It would take more than one to create an army for the republic, I would think

[Guest Scathane]

I believe one of us actually had proof for this some way up in this thread...

[Vero]

SO what did everyone agree on or are we still arguing. In the books "Spectre of the Past" and "Vision of the Future", Zahn implies that there are still clones out and about and that there were more then just 1 or 2 cloning facilities. At least thats what i got from it...

[Guest Scathane]

As always: we're still arguing!

[Jahled]

As always: we're still arguing!

 

On this issue I think as always we were right!

 

If it's Imperial, has a face obscured by a helmet; it's a clone.

 

The Empire.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do not quote ANYTHING non-movie in reply to this particular post.

 

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

I am still of the oppinion that not everything that has its face obscured is a clone, but I do think that the Empire's armed forces were founded on them. After all, there is a 20 year gap between Episode III and IV. With the militarization of the Republic/Empire, there is bound to be regular people who wanted to sign up.

 

Officers also started out as clones, but as we see in the OT, that has changed. So, perhaps the Imperial Armed Forces are so many clones, but a mixture (but this has already been said).

 

I agree that non-movie sources should not be used here... at least until Episode III is released and we have time to digest it.

[Guest Scathane]

Indeed, this would mean that Darth Vader is a clone...

[Trejiuvanat]

I think Vader would regain some respect if he admitted to be a Clone from an Unknown Source rather than admitting he once was I-don't-like-sand-whiner-Hayden-Skywalker.

[Guest Scathane]

I bet he would agree to the first rather than the latter!

[SOCL]

Vader is a clone? Sorry, Jahled, I couldn't help it.

 

The only question I have about clone army is: If all the stromtroopers are clones from the Clone Wars/late Republic, why do the stormtroopers in the Original Trilogy have different voices than those in Attack of the Clones? I mean, I realize the easiest explanation is that the OT was made before the prequels, so contradiction is understandable, but Lucas has been quite thorough in destroying matters that in the OT contradict the prequels (i.e. the DVDs)...so why didn't he bother to go ahead and change the voices of Stormtroopers to that of Jango Fett/Clonetroopers? He did for Boba Fett and he even changed the image of Palpatine in The Empire Strikes Back. Someone with that sort of attention to detail would certainly try to destroying any and all contradictions. Perhaps this issue will be addressed in a later remake/reissue of the OT ( ), but regardless, it remains unaddressed. The best guess is that Stormtroopers are not all clones or there are one or more new lines of clones other than the Jango Fett model. Of course, over years of genetic engineering and so forth, it's quite possible that the genetic traits unique to Jango Fett and the original Clonetroopers have been altered (to include the voice and height...since Jango Fett himself would have been "a little short for a Stormtrooper"). Of course, this is speculation, in fact, this particular point (i.e. the connection between the humans in the Clonetrooper armor and Stormtrooper armor) may never be addressed and is doomed to geeky (and BEAKy) discussions amongst fans for generations to come...until Lucas releases the Ultra-Super-Awesome-Special-Edition.