Clone Empire.

[BadSamaritan]

I cant remember what book it was in, but an Imperial Admiral complained about the high manuverability of the TIE-Interceptor, saying that even a seasoned pilot could send it into an uncontrolled tumble, and that the TIE was manuverable enough.

 

And frankly, I have to agree with him. The standard TIE is more than manuverable enough, its what kept the pilots alive. If the interceptor had come with onyl two laser cannons standard, instead of four, I think it would have been to manuverable for even vetern TIE pilots to handle.

[Evaders99]

But the Empire didn't defeat the Seperatists...haven't you heard of the Rebellion?

 

The Rebellion has little to do with the Seperatist movement. While they are both fighting the current reigning government, the Seperatists were created by Siduous and Dooku as a way to bring about a war and gain power. The goal was a complete seperate from the prosperous, if not corrupting, Republic.

 

The Rebel Alliance was created from disgruntled Senators along with other's fighting the oppression of the Empire. The goal was an overthrow of the Emperor and a restoration of the Republic government.

 

I don't see how one would go into the other. Not to mention that Siduous would have killed all the Seperatists after he no longer needed them.

[Mad78]

I cant remember what book it was in, but an Imperial Admiral complained about the high manuverability of the TIE-Interceptor, saying that even a seasoned pilot could send it into an uncontrolled tumble, and that the TIE was manuverable enough.

 

And frankly, I have to agree with him. The standard TIE is more than manuverable enough, its what kept the pilots alive. If the interceptor had come with onyl two laser cannons standard, instead of four, I think it would have been to manuverable for even vetern TIE pilots to handle.

The only real problem of the tie would be its too large profile.

[Jahled]

Ok. I'm going to get gritty.

 

For argument's sake let us put aside all the 'EU' stuff, it doesn't help whatso ever given it's all open to argument/debate, and none of it registers that much with what's going on, and never really has, in Geaorge Lucas' mind, in so much as his vision has revealed itself.

 

My personnal opinion is that most of it is badly written, and quite frankly stupid; the glipses of which have kinda soiled the SW universe I love. Stories inwhich assembled junior jedi's throw Imperial fleets out of orbit are simply dumb and childlike. (errr....Darksaber...I think...) which to his credit is why GL hasn't given such windows of SW economics any reality in the prequals. Who are this f-rate authors producing crap for people to quote in debates such as this one? Have any of them met GL? Have any of them discussed his vision, in depth; or lightly over an expresso at Starbucks? For most of the utter crap, it's unlikely. Most of the SW so-called expanded universe is just a means to do two things which as intelligent dudes we all know: milk us for cash, and satisfy are helpless consumption for SW stuff! If I drew a picture of a Stormtrooper with a pancake on his head, and it got published by Darkhorse comics as an advert for an appropriate pancake manufacturer, the chances are some bright spark would rave all about it on one the infinite SW websites untill the Pancake Trooper has become some esoteric specialized-unit discussed in depth at conventions, on the third floor exclusive sub-meeting.

 

I know this is a silly exageration, but in all honesty, the expanded SW universe is now utterly pathetic, and about as close to GL's original vision in the movies as India and Pakistan are in friendly games of cricket.

 

Quite frankly I gave up reading d-rate EU novals after I threw Darksaber into the waves of the cost of Spain; I considered it that crap, and unworthy of the tree that it came from. But unworthy of the dream and magic of the movie I first saw in 1977.

 

Back to point: So, take all of that onboard; from the first post, deleate all the EU stuff from your mind, and remember all of this is ultimately just movie stuff, with not much else than economics to it. If you own a copy of Attack of the Clones; The Illustrated Companion, turn to page 64 to see visual representation of what GL wants to put into his audaiance's heads as far as the birth of the Empire goes.

 

Clones donning hats. He may not be the best movie maker in the world, but obvious symbolism in a film is...errr...slightly obvious....

[Jahled]

Ok. I'm going to get gritty.

 

For argument's sake let us put aside all the 'EU' stuff, it doesn't help whatso ever given it's all open to argument/debate, and none of it registers that much with what's going on, and never really has, in Geaorge Lucas' mind, in so much as his vision has revealed itself.

 

My personnal opinion is that most of it is badly written, and quite frankly stupid; the glipses of which have kinda soiled the SW universe I love. Stories inwhich assembled junior jedi's throw Imperial fleets out of orbit are simply dumb and childlike. (errr....Darksaber...I think...) which to his credit is why GL hasn't given such windows of SW economics any reality in the prequals. Who are this f-rate authors producing crap for people to quote in debates such as this one? Have any of them met GL? Have any of them discussed his vision, in depth; or lightly over an expresso at Starbucks? For most of the utter crap, it's unlikely. Most of the SW so-called expanded universe is just a means to do two things which as intelligent dudes we all know: milk us for cash, and satisfy are helpless consumption for SW stuff! If I drew a picture of a Stormtrooper with a pancake on his head, and it got published by Darkhorse comics as an advert for an appropriate pancake manufacturer, the chances are some bright spark would rave all about it on one the infinite SW websites untill the Pancake Trooper has become some esoteric specialized-unit discussed in depth at conventions, on the third floor exclusive sub-meeting.

 

I know this is a silly exageration, but in all honesty, the expanded SW universe is now utterly pathetic, and about as close to GL's original vision in the movies as India and Pakistan are in friendly games of cricket.

 

Quite frankly I gave up reading d-rate EU novals after I threw Darksaber into the waves of the cost of Spain; I considered it that crap, and unworthy of the tree that it came from. But unworthy of the dream and magic of the movie I first saw in 1977.

 

Back to point: So, take all of that onboard; from the first post, deleate all the EU stuff from your mind, and remember all of this is ultimately just movie stuff, with not much else than economics to it. If you own a copy of Attack of the Clones; The Illustrated Companion, turn to page 64 to see visual representation of what GL wants to put into his audaiance's heads as far as the birth of the Empire goes.

 

Clones donning hats. He may not be the best movie maker in the world, but obvious symbolism in a film is...errr...slightly obvious....

 

That was actually quite a good post! Have none of you got anything to say concerning the subject if we don't use EU stuff? I ez amazed.

[Guest Scathane]

I'm a bit disappointed as well...

[Paul]

Well Jahled my friend although you find most EU worthless - I agree there are stupid things in Darksaber but Daala- one of my favorite characters beside of Vader and Tarkin- was also in it. The EU is far from perfect but I enjoyed some of it especially Zahns trilogy. I actually prefer some EU stuff to the first two prequals, this Revenge of the Sith will be better because the foolish Anikan will be replaced by the great Darth Vader. As far as clones and such I believe That if you read the official Strategy guide to Galactic Battlegrounds- A book licensed by good old GL himself - you would read a background story called Pax Empiraca- The Wookie Annihilation which talks about the Imperial occupation of Kashyyk. The story is told from the standpoint of an Imperial Stormtrooper a non-clone about the differences between a clonetrooper friend and other clones. The story both shows that the clones make up a part of the forces of the Empire but also that there are humans both conscripts and volunteers among the troops. Besides this evidence the fact that every Empire in human history something Lucas has studied has built large militaries. Any government would be stupid to look a gift horse in the mouth. No matter the duty you will always find people who will do it for a price- not normally a high price either. I myself believe that the size of the Military of the Galactic Empire was a combination of clones and humans. Just my beliefs.-GM Conway

[Guest Scathane]

Ah! Finally some sense! I would agree that the composition of the Imperial army was a combination of both clones and non-clones. Amongst other stories, the one of Han Solo's short career as a Stormtrooper points out that much. Moreover, I couldn't imagine elite troops like the Storm Commandos, Blackhole Stormtroopers and the Emperor's Royal Guard to be made up of clones. In such specialist units, one would prefer unique assets of team members to complement each other. On the other hand, the bulk of the army could, and in my view would, be made up of clones. Furthermore, the fact that this link tells us that Clone Troopers refer to each other by their unique ID tag, which is embedded in their DNA, suggests that TK421 was a clone. Another signal is Leia asking Luke whether he isn't a little short for a Stormtrooper; this suggests that Stormtroopers are more or less of a minimum height.

 

BTW, GMC, it's Kashyyyk

Edited November 17, 2004 by Scathane

[Paul]

It was spelled Kashyyk in the book so go figure.-GM Conway

[SOCL]

I know we're throwing away the EU material, but one last comment; do not forget that in Champions of the Force, Kyp Durron's brother had nearly forgotten his name and spouted off his number as a stormtrooper.

 

Well, now that EU has been thrown out, that was pointless.

 

 

 

 

Okay, I think that's it is more or less safe to say that the Star Wars movies and the Star Wars Expanded Universe exist as nearly independent entities. Think of it as, the movies affect the EU, but not the other way around. Yes, the movies might pull information and use different little things from the EU, it does not mean that the EU is "as official" as the movies--or at least, it seems we have all kind of come to that conclusion.

 

Following that line of thought, yes, it seems that MANY of the troopers in the movies probably are clones. I seriously doubt that they are ALL Jango Fett clones as some clones may actually mature and advance differently, making them better. At the same time, I believe that the army is not TOTALLY made up of clones, instead it's a combination with a broad majority of them being clones. This, though, can't really be supported by anything in the movies, but it seems to make sense to have clones AND recruits in the army. If we, then, believe that there were non-clones in the Imperial forces, then we can probably say that there are some that actually preform better than the clones, giving way to the cloning of people other than Jango Fett (this upholds the fact that stormtroopers throughout the movies have different voices).

 

On thing, though, according to sources (you can view this on the Technical Commentaries), ANH presents a stormtrooper officer, Commander Praji, not in the infamous white armor; it can be located here in the section labeled "Imperial Stormtroopers". This leads me to believe that not everyone who was a stormtrooper was, in fact, a clone, but that regular recruiting went on (at least for the officer corps).

[Paul]

I liked Praji even if his role was small I made cards of both he and Lt. Tanbris which I use in all of my Rebellion games.-GM Conway

[Mad78]

I must admit that when i was still a little sw fan and had no EU stuff I was deep into wondering what was hidden behind the white mask of a stormtrooper.

One of my first theories was that they were all droids.

But I must say that in the film the stormtroopers seem to react like if they knew what the other was thinking so the clone idea is not at all stupid and one of the most plausible non EU possibilities.

But an army still needs several different points of view and different ways of looking at things to avoid being to previsible.

The idea is good and very plausible.

[Guest Scathane]

It was spelled Kashyyk in the book so go figure.-GM Conway

I did and since it's called Kashyyyk here it spells bad news for EU novels...

 

For the rest of it, I agree that not all Stormtroopers are clones.

[Paul]

I just rechecked the manual and it is spelled Kashyyyk so it was my eyes that made the mistake and not the book. Sorry dude.-GM Conway

[Jahled]

I know we're throwing away the EU material, but one last comment; do not forget that in Champions of the Force, Kyp Durron's brother had nearly forgotten his name and spouted off his number as a stormtrooper.

 

Well, now that EU has been thrown out, that was pointless.

 

 

 

 

Okay, I think that's it is more or less safe to say that the Star Wars movies and the Star Wars Expanded Universe exist as nearly independent entities. Think of it as, the movies affect the EU, but not the other way around. Yes, the movies might pull information and use different little things from the EU, it does not mean that the EU is "as official" as the movies--or at least, it seems we have all kind of come to that conclusion.

 

Following that line of thought, yes, it seems that MANY of the troopers in the movies probably are clones. I seriously doubt that they are ALL Jango Fett clones as some clones may actually mature and advance differently, making them better. At the same time, I believe that the army is not TOTALLY made up of clones, instead it's a combination with a broad majority of them being clones. This, though, can't really be supported by anything in the movies, but it seems to make sense to have clones AND recruits in the army. If we, then, believe that there were non-clones in the Imperial forces, then we can probably say that there are some that actually preform better than the clones, giving way to the cloning of people other than Jango Fett (this upholds the fact that stormtroopers throughout the movies have different voices).

 

On thing, though, according to sources (you can view this on the Technical Commentaries), ANH presents a stormtrooper officer, Commander Praji, not in the infamous white armor; it can be located here in the section labeled "Imperial Stormtroopers". This leads me to believe that not everyone who was a stormtrooper was, in fact, a clone, but that regular recruiting went on (at least for the officer corps).

 

 

Dudes! I'm not being a troll in suggesting we abandon the EU stuff as sources of references! (I know you don't think I am), I just feel it makes life easier to address the initial point. Given it's you SOCL dude; here's a completely meaningless example of not using EU stuff as reliable:

 

In the bath today I was casually reading a comic book called Doomworld, basically a Marvel reprint of the very earliest SW comics. On page 126 there is a very real reference to the Borg. I kid you not!

 

Anyway, given that was as I said, meaningless to the topic at hand, i'll say this; given most of the 70s comics were absolute gibberish (twas a decade way way way out there!), am I to start quoting stuff from my chldhood as SW Biblical? It's never going to work. So for Argument's sake, and to make all of this easier I have made the suggestion we drop the EU stuff as a point of reference, which using Saxton's 'I drink to much coffee' website as points of reference you've just done. So I am confussed. Whilst this dude has contributed vastly to our beloved SW mythos (he really has!), he has a horrible habit of going overkill on vertially every aspect of every frame in a comic book for example as SW Fact! His Imperial ship section actually almost made me cry it was so over the top with utterly meaningless references of obscure ships from the Darkempire comics where the excellent artists obviously had a free hand at their artwork.... how the hell did we end up with an Allegiance SSD given it was obviously a normal one drawn wrong?

 

Back to my original pointiness. Ok, I respect all of the points all of you have contributed but will now stand by my initial theory.

 

In Ep II we have two vastly symbolic movie points. The first on Komino with Obi Wun being shown the Clones; and specifically collecting their Stormtrooper helmets in one scene. And two right at the end when the future Emperor is on that balcony with that ER actor overlooking thousands upon thousands of Stormtroopers marching into their Acclamator class cruisers. All of them are clones. We know this from the movie we've just finnished watching, because as we hear Imperial March and are stirred to 1977 awe once again, it obvious they all are because proffessional troops can't be trained that quickly and marched off into service.

 

So how do you intigrate a non-clone into an existing regiment of clones, and not make them feel a little wierd, as time marches by? Why bother? With clones Palpatine has absolute steadfast loyalty, and economic value as Scathe pointed out. Why risk recruiting 'non-humans' who may be rebels, or at least pause for thought(being human?). Sure the Imperial Officer Core were obviously 'normal', and acted as officers for the Stormtroopers, but this is the brilliance of Palpatine's Empire. The commanders have steadfastly loyal and die-hard troops that can be relied upon to execute any assigned mission without questioning their orders.

 

Sure, non-clones also served in the regular Imperial ranks; we saw that in the ESB in the AT-AT walkers, but the Imperial Army is always seperated from Stormtroopers right? Stormtroopers were the elite of the elite. Despite being crap in every movie, we must bear in mind we wouldn't have got off Tattooine if they shot up Luke, Ben, Han, and chums; and this site might well now be a Battlestar Gallactica site.

 

*shudders*

 

Gosh! Enough for now!

[/i]

[Lord_La_forge]

This whole cloning thing is nonsense!

You've lost it again.

[Lord_La_forge]

This whole cloning thing is nonsense!

You've lost it again.

[Jahled]

Dwang! Shagged for who to quote....

 

 

EDIT: Remembered this piece of SW EU-frequently quoted-realism from swrebellion days of yore....

[Trejiuvanat]

 

Begun these Clone Wars have...

 

BTW, LLF, do you and your "brothers" get group discounts???

[Stellar_Magic]

Interesting...

 

I think most people that have posted in this forum have basically said one or two things.

 

1. All the Stormtroopers are clones (This is in the minority I believe)

 

2. At the very least some of the Stormtroopers are recruits (This seems to be the Majority view.)

 

Perhaps you should have put a middle option in your poll Jahled.

 

On the subject of the EU, there are some works that are absolut s***. But my impression in how many clones are in service comes down to Timothy Zahn's depiction in his books. I believe these works are the ones that come as close to the 'reality' of Star Wars as any of the others.

 

In Survivor's Quest, the composition of stormtrooper units is talked about subtly. Mara recalls that stormtroopers are all but extinct since the end of the cloning facility on Wayland. This makes it seem that a large portion of Stromtroopers were clones, and those that came out of Wayland were clones of clones. Still the fact that the 501st has been reconstituted with volunteers suggests that volunteers can still be stormtroopers, just that there wouldn't be many that were volunteers.

[SOCL]

I didn't mean to sound offended, but the EU is full of crap, that I acknowledge. No worries, Jahled, my friend!

 

It seems like the stormtroopers are all clones, but it's hard to believe that they're all Jango Fett clones. I think that by the time of ANH, the Empire was probably using troopers from other units and officers (who we have established to probably be "normals") to clone more troops (kind of how Thrawn cloned his best troops in Dark Force Rising), which explains the different yet similiar voices of the stormtroopers in the OT. Does that make sense and/or make a reasonable and believable compromise?

[Mad78]

Perhaps on entering the Academy the best students were cloned?

 

About the EU. I agree certtain books like DarkSaber, Cristal Star, New Rebellion and Bounty Hunter Wars are real crap. But books like the X-Wing series are quite. So it isn't all crap even if there is a good amount of it.

[Stellar_Magic]

Okay first off, Jahled has stated some stuff implicitly depicted in the movie, but in my view he forgot just one little thing, clone production began 10 years before the film...

 

Lets see, the Kaminan leader prime minister says that the first "battalions" were becoming operational. A battalion in the military is on the order of three to four regiments I believe. Meaning a force around 3,000-8,000 actual clone troops in each battalion. Considering the force shown at Geonosis, I'd say that the number of clonetroops at the battle was on the order of 8-16,000 or around two to four battalions or around one to two brigades. The clonetroopers also demonstrate much better abilities then the stormtroopers from episodes IV-VI. In the Arena you see at most a platoon of forty clonetroopers hold off hundreds of Super battledroids, Droidekas, and Battledroids. If you look at the sheer size of the droid army in the film, it seems clear to me that the droids had a numerical advantage of at least two to one.

 

Some in depth of analysis of the film states that the droid armies of the CIS has the capacity to double in size in a matter of days, the cloning facility on Kamino simply wouldn't be able to keep up even if the clones could take on four or five times the number of droids thrown against them. The Republic would be forced to rapidly expand its military beyond the limits of the Kaminan production capacity, hence recruits and conscripts. The Jedi would have given the Republic time to pull itself together but they would be worn down relatively quickly from sheer atrition.

 

In all the films I think there is only one formation that I believe has at least a portion of its roster as clones, that being the force of troops used in the capture of the Tantive IV, they're much better shots and drilled in the film then any other unit, leading me to believe that the force shown there are 'real' stormtroopers. Regular army, navy, and militia units all use the stormtrooper uniform for general combat forces. The rational behind this is that imperial stormtroopers were a symbol, and if you had an elite force you wanted it to appear present at any engagement to deliver a psychological advantage. Thats also why some of the other uniforms of the imperial armed forces, the fleettrooper uniform and army uniforms are rather nondescript and rob the wearer of humanity of appearance just like stormtrooper armor.

 

Jahled also cited Leia's statement, "Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?" So what does this mean, well if Luke was that much different in height from an imperial soldier surely he would have been spotted, if stormtroopers were all clones that is. The statement may merely be from higher acceptance requirements for stormtrooper units, or Leia may have been annoyed at not being worth guarding by 'real' stormtroopers (the clones).

 

Still everything points to these simple conclusions.

 

Real stormtroopers, the elite force of the empire are clones.

 

Not all personnel wearing stormtrooper armor are 'real' stormtroopers, think, would you really use an elite ground combat unit for security?

 

The Republic would have been forced to use recuited forces and conscripts to hold the droid armies of the CIS at bay.

 

Real stormtroopers would be very effective, especially if they're depicted the same way they were in episode II, still like any elite unit they would be small in numbers.

[Jahled]

The clonetroopers also demonstrate much better abilities then the stormtroopers from episodes IV-VI. In the Arena you see at most a platoon of forty clonetroopers hold off hundreds of Super battledroids, Droidekas, and Battledroids. If you look at the sheer size of the droid army in the film, it seems clear to me that the droids had a numerical advantage of at least two to one.

*

 

Fair enough larger point with your point dude, but don't ever loose sight of the fact that all the movies are essentially works of 'heroic-fantasy,' and the tale wouldn't get off the ground if Stormtroopers shot as accurately in the orginal films as they obviously did in what we're seeing in the prequals! As I said previously, the MFalcon wouldn't have got off the ground on Tattooine, and that would have been that!

 

FOR GOD'S SAKE TO ALL OF THE BRAIN-DEAD SW COMMUNITY can we drop this growing spackoid theory that clones in the original movies were superior to those we got to witness in the original films! THEY WE NOT AIMING THEIR GUNS AT OUR HERO'S!!!!!It doesn't require to much insight to figure this out in an unrealic sci-fi kid's fantasy!!! Err..Let's be realistic and allow our hero's to be shot to pieces. Makes a fun movie! NOT.

 

Imperial Evolution:

 

"Good news sir!"

 

"What's that, badly trained officer?"

 

"The latest regiment of Stormtroopers have arrived; they are more crap than the first!"

 

"Good, good; this makes obvious sense! Contact R&D to congrat them on their brilliant advances in decades of research!"

 

"Immediately sir!"

 

"Good, after that execute yourself."

 

"With honor sir!"

 

etc...

 

*yawn*

 

 

*aint aimed at you SM dude!

[Jahled]

I didn't mean to sound offended, but the EU is full of crap, that I acknowledge. No worries, Jahled, my friend!

 

It seems like the stormtroopers are all clones, but it's hard to believe that they're all Jango Fett clones. I think that by the time of ANH, the Empire was probably using troopers from other units and officers (who we have established to probably be "normals") to clone more troops (kind of how Thrawn cloned his best troops in Dark Force Rising), which explains the different yet similiar voices of the stormtroopers in the OT. Does that make sense and/or make a reasonable and believable compromise?

 

Indeed! Why relay on one clone-source; Jango Fett; when you can specialize on individual characteristics and clone for specific Stormtrooper types/mission profiles/specialists, sort of thing!

 

Given the events in the prequals were before Darth Sidious has finalized his grand plan and executed an excuse for a military machine the like's of which the galaxy has never seen, (the Empire); it's reasonably obvious to assume that in the years that have transpired onto the original movies cloning has become widespread throughout the New Order. Why restrict it to Kamino?

 

This also all makes my my SW sentimantality to go into overload when I hear Imperial March; for so devious has Darth Sidious been in creating the Empire! A work of genius!

 

Create a war for an excuse to create an army beyond anything before seen, in order to subjugate the galaxy in the larger picture.

 

The film critics who haven't seen this and go with the flow at trashing the new films should go and listen to Holst:The Planets.

 

I recomnend Mars; God of War.