Clone Empire.

[Jahled]

I said this is another thread a long time ago, and was widely dismissed by most, other than Scathe, who was filling in for SOCL being absent, and justified my statement with an extremely long and disturbingly thorough explaination.

 

Having just seen the trailor, the Star Wars mythos has at last become clear. The Empire is built on clones.

 

Not just Stormtrropers (no expanded universe title has been given permission to view their faces!), but any Imperial you see with a face obscuring helmet is a clone. TIE-pilots, Deathe star gunners, the lot.

 

This would also explain why in the original movies such a low value accorded to any trooper's/pilots life by our heros.

 

 

It seems obvious to me. But I resigned to one of you lot prooving me utterly wrong...

[Stellar_Magic]

I'd have to say that by ANH that at least some of the troopers without faces were not clones, this is to say that with complete domination fo the empire it would make more sense just to recruit, it would take less time to swell the ranks of the army through those means, you can train a man in six to eight months, you can clone a man in three to four times that amount of time, it simply would be more logical and efficient to use recruitment for the bulk of your force and use clones only for extremely important, elite, or symbolic units.

[Mad78]

The Empire once it took over surely set up academies andstarted training troopers.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

There is also the matter of variance in voice. Sure, all stormtroopers sound alike at first, but if you really listen, they each have distinct voices.

While no EU-based games have been given license to show stormtrooper faces, Zahn's last book did (sort of).

[Imperator2]

Sorry Jahled, have to agree with GAT, Stellar Magic and Mad on this one. The faces behind the masks are individuals in my humble opinion. Your hypothesis taken to its logical conclusion is that 'people' would not serve the Empire because it is 'perceived' as 'evil'. Human nature would certainly prove otherwise if percieved through a historical 'lense'.

 

Many of the Empires personnel do indeed wear facial headgear/helmets etc

but I do think that is done for aesthetics rather than than any ulterior motive.

 

For a start, people with their faces obscured or hidden are 'more scary', and although one could argue they are concealing a hidden agenda, the truth of the matter is far more boring and ordinary than we care to think.

 

Obscured faces induce fear and submission into populations, as they take away individuality and portray no human emotion whatsoever. A small but important psychological tool used throughout our history for starters.

 

It also emotionally detatches the audience from the characters whose face they cannot see, ergo they don't care what happens to them as they are in a sense using your arguement 'faceless clones'. One can bond with a character like Wedge, Luke, or Han because the audience can begin to identify with them. A small point but one which undermines ( unfortunately) your whole hypothesis.

 

Don't know if this makes any sense as I've just come back from the pub, but I hope you can 'get my drift' , to use an old nautical term.......'mumble.....gibber.......THEY'RE IN THE TREE'S MOTHER'.......Arrrgggh.....time for bed

Edited November 10, 2004 by Imperator2

[Imperator2]

Jahled wrote:-

said this is another thread a long time ago,..........

 

Was that '.............in a galaxy far, far away.....

[Jahled]

Jahled wrote:-

said this is another thread a long time ago,..........

 

Was that '.............in a galaxy far, far away.....

 

Emm... pubs are good for you.

 

I'm just going to hang onto my theory for just a few last gasps longer, untill someone nice comes along and agrees with me.

 

I will be their best friend for ages.

 

But all of you heed this now: When George is 'liberated' from his film production, this insight into the entire mythos and Star Wars will go down as the post that hit it on the head. He will have to explain stuff like why clone/stormtroopers look so cool/identical, how the Empire took shape in his mind so quickly overthrowing the Republic, and why I without any doubt reckon all of you lot are utterly wrong with your replies. *

 

I am so confident by the time you finnish watching EP 3 that you will have forgotten this post I shall now go to my fridge. I suspect there will be a cat waiting to be kicked. I've fed him twice for gods sake.

 

Edit: *I am increasingly loosing confidance.

Edited November 10, 2004 by Jahled

[Stellar_Magic]

Perhaps I should shred a little light on something oh so mighty Jahled has overlooked.

 

Think for a moment about all the EU stories, especially those that deal specifically with this idea. Yes, there are stormtroopers that are clones, are all the stormtroopers clones, no. At the end of the clone wars all clone production was ceased or destroyed, those stormtroopers which are clones are remnants from a bygone era, and would be concentrated in units such as the 501st.

 

If your position was correct why would all those expert clones be unable to hit the broadside of a barn in the films?

[BadSamaritan]

Read the book tals of Mos Eisly, I think it is.

 

Stormtroopers arent clones. That book proves it.

[Jahled]

Read the book tals of Mos Eisly, I think it is.

 

Stormtroopers arent clones. That book proves it.

 

This statement is relying on non-movie source. Therefore it could be deemed as not being valid, especially given the amount of rubbish that has been published.

[Mad78]

The book was approved by Lucas films which therefore unrubbishes it (just thought an expression there )

[Trejiuvanat]

Yeah, but Lucas will rubbish it again as he is the ultimate source on Star Wars. He did say that most stormies are clones.

 

In Episode III I'll agree that all clone/stormtroopers are clones, they all come from Kamino and are genetic children from Jango. After 18-20 years, one would expect the Empire to have begun recruiting and conscribing lots of folks into their armed forces. Officers and the like are not clones, and people like Luke were eager to go to the Academy, and come out as a pilot or as a clone or even as a Rebel..

[SOCL]

Okay, let's begin.

 

It seems logical to say the Empire of the OT was formed on clones, it was the fastest way to grow an enormous army that would be used for Galaxy-wide domination. Now, that's not to say that every trooper (whether it by TIE Fighter pilot, stormtrooper, etc) is a clone. I believe that by the time of ANH there are many clones still running around, but the numbers of people who desire to be stormtroopers has increased (think about the propoganda; people probably viewed stromtroopers like Roman soldiers, they wanted to be one because it was cool). We also know that by ANH, cloning had been illegalized; now, that does not mean it didn't happen, but then why all the shock in the final scenes of Dark Force Rising when Luke and the others found out about the clone stromtroopers aboard the Katana? Simple, clones had become a thing of the past. I mean, the EU is riddled with allusions to mad clones and, undoubtedly, people in the galaxy had started to view clones as a bad thing. Palpatine, being the political genius he is, would probably have exploited that image of ma/bad clones to help recruitment efforts of regular peoples. I mean, after all, it's easier to control people if their own kind are the ones doing the controlling versus having outside forces coming in and doing it (i.e. clones).

We also know that recuritment efforts for non-clones had long since been happening in SW. For instance, we had Kyp Durron's brother in Champions of the Force who was not a clone. You can't go into the military and expect to become a clone, but you certainly want to be like one (if the idea that clones are looked at badly is accepted).

 

I agree with Imperator2 on the idea of covering people's faces with helmets for "scary" reasons. But I have to go with Jahled on the idea that those with helmets are, or at least at one point were all clones. I believe that just about every unit in SW that has a "faceless helmet" on was probably clone at one time or another, but the evidence lies in the movies and EU that all stormtroopers (and others) are not clones. In ANH itself we have one voice yell "Close the blast doors!" and then a totally different (and deeper) voice yell "Open the blast doors! Open the blast doors!" Then we have the stormtrooper who nearly apprehended Leia and Han in ROTJ say "Freeze!" in a voice unlike those two of ANH. Then he have the scout troopers who try to apprehend Leia in the forest with Wickit...the list goes on and on.

 

Conclusion, the Empire's military was founded on clones. Millions, maybe even billions of clones, but the practice of cloning, for some reasons, disappeared by at least the time of ANH (that's not to say that Clone troopers weren't still in the military; they would be "late models"). Then we have Grand Admiral Thrawn walk onto the scene and discover the cloning facilities in Mount Tantiss on Wayland. Now, this raises the quesiton of whether these facilities were used by the Empire in secret during the OT. Possibly and if so, probably for elite units like the Imperial Royal Guard and the 501st "Emperor's Fist". Regardless, clones had very obviously fallen out of use by the Empire until Thrawn restarted the facilities there (thus we get the surprised reactions of our heroes aboard the Katana in Dark Force Rising). Mount Tantiss is then destroyed, but we know that Thrawn took at least one cloning cylinder to the Nirana and spread clone "sleeper cells" throughout the galaxy. Thus we get some of the action and characters (specifically the Soontir Fel clones) in Specter of the Past and Vision of the Future. We know, though, that between The Last Command and Specter of the Past, cloning was in total disuse (we have the evidence of the training facilities where Kyp Durron's brother was in Champions of the Force, and we have a comment in Darksaber about how those dressed as Royal Guards are not real guardsmen but "merely" stormtroopers wearing the armor, giving us a hint at the Empire's lack of resources, specifically its man power). Beyond that...well, I don't believe clones were mentioned very much if at all in the NJO, but I could be mistaken.

 

By the way, the 501st mentioned in Zahn's Survivor's Quest was probably a unit that called itself for the conotation the 501st had, but was very likely not the original.

 

 

So I agree with Jahled that the Empire was founded on clones, but then I believe the Empire started recruiting, mixing clone troops with "real" troops.

[Mad78]

You have just described how i thought about all this perfectly my Roman friend.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

Well put SOCOL.

 

I am, however, doubting the possibility of the Empire continuing to clone troops for elite units such as the 501st and the Royal Guards. We have all of he Crimson Empire books that would contradict that, and there is some refernece in the EU books that the Royal Guards were the best-of-the-best from the Stormtrooper ranks and that thye were rotated between regualr duty and Royal Guard duty.

 

I will be interested to see how Lucas deals (or doesn't) with Zahn's assertion that the clones from the clone wars went insane. It seems that the entire idea of the Clone Wars as established in the EU novels can be thrown to the wind.

[Jahled]

Wow! Good scribbling there fellas!

 

I must confess to having my mind half made up on the clone issue. Hence me posting this issue.

 

First point. Ok, I admit to having read very little of the expanded stuff, because other than the excellent Zahn Thrawn triliogy, I personally began to find the quality of writing seriously lacking. My own opinion. I own masses of comics, the best without a doubt was one of the most recent; being Betrayal. In that we have the true value of clone Stormtroopers in the eyes of their Imperial masters, target practice for Darth Vader at one point. Given that comic was set 'weeks before the events in a new hope,' what are we to make of it? Slightly demoralizing for other Stormtroopers if they are deemed so expendable as to being killed on a whim by Darth Vader. So if we are going to quote expanded SW stuff start with that. It is without doubt the most closely sanctioned expanded title tied up with the new movies. It is here that inner circle of people who make the final decisions concerning what's approved and what is not have stamped their mark and Star Wars authenticity as far as they want the mythos to be seen. Chiefly that the countless legions of Stormtroopers are clones. Why, given the Emperor/Palpatine/Supreme Chancellor would he outlaw their production? He's just engineered absolute power by EP3. It goes with TIE fighter pilots as well, who in their right mind would get into an unshielded fighter at the complete mercy of a mother carrier? Dwell on this. I believe when we get to see Ep3 you'll catch onto what i'm on about.

 

Second Point: This is expressly my own opinion, but so much of this EU stuff has ruined the SW mythos by being quite frankly silly, my entire question hinges on whether it used as a source of quotation or ignored as such. Bear in mind George Lucas largely has clearly demonstrated he doesn't consider it worth much in his SW vision, other than filling up his bank account. So I leave it to you to use or not use expanded stuff in this matter as you deem fit.

 

Personally, i'm going to stop editing these posts saying i'm not sure anymore. Clones make economic sense, especially if you control the Imperial Senete and you depend on these guys to conquer the galaxy for your Empire.

[Grand_Admiral_Thrawn]

I agree, there was much in the EU that somewhat ruined the SW Universe, but there was also much that added to it. Without the EU we wouldn't have characters such as Daala, Thrawn, Fel, Mara Jade, or Pallaeon. The Rogue Squadron series expanded on that group and made them the legends that they are. No one would care about them if we relied solely on the movies. There are many other things, but my fingers don't have the stamina they used to in this cold weather .

Grandted, the NJO series relating to the Vong was dragged out a lot (15 books? Most of them were half the size of the regular EU novels!), and the Black Fleet Crisis was a waste of time, but hey, every story has boring parts (like every second Star Trek Movie).

 

I would like to suggest we disregard the EU, but it has simply added too much to the story to ignor. The trouble comes in the contradictions between George's story and the EU's. Since both are licensed, who do we trust?

[Stellar_Magic]

Economical sense? Well which is cheaper?

 

Pay Kamino to build trillions of clones, feed them, give them health care and so forth for four years until they age enough to be useful in combat.

 

--Or--

 

Pay Kamino to make a couple hundred thousand clones, and recruit trillions of other people, pay them minimum wage and give them combat training.

 

In the end, Kamino would probably be more expensive, you've still got to pay for food, armor, and medicine in both cases. In the case of the clones though you've got to pay much more because of the highly specialized service they offer, it's not like anyone can make human clones in Star Wars.

 

Militarily, relying on clones is one of the worst possible moves imaginable.

 

First, using exclusively clones for your army grown at one place has one very major and obvious problem. You loose Kamino and you're stuck. (I personnaly believe we'll see Kamino's cloning facilities destroyed in Ep III)

 

Secondly, it takes as much as four years to make a clone according to the film, four years, and can you seriously believe that Kamino had trillions of cloning cylinders? In truth the clones cannot possibly fill out the needs of a broad war, the droid army can double in size in a week while it would take a year at the least for the clone army to double in size. If you recruited you could double the size of your force in a few months not a year.

[Jahled]

Why do you asume by the time Palpatine has assumed his authothity, Kamino is the only place in the galaxy of producing clones?

[Stellar_Magic]

Perhaps because everyone else is using droids

 

Well in the EU all Cloning Technology has disappeared after the ROTJ. This means that there can't be many places with that technology to begin with, and that only the most highly placed people in the Empire (The People that died with the second death star) knew where such Technology existed. Since the world of Kamino is removed from the archives and that it is never mention post ROTJ I must conclude that the massive cloning operation seen in EP2 is exclusively Kaminan Technology.

[TK421]

It goes with TIE fighter pilots as well, who in their right mind would get into an unshielded fighter at the complete mercy of a mother carrier? Dwell on this. I believe when we get to see Ep3 you'll catch onto what i'm on about.

 

In the Han Solo trilogy, more precisely in the book 'the Hutt gambit', Han Solo says something about it.

He had flown in many types of ships in the imperial navy, like cruisers and freighters, but most of all he adored the small and swift TIE fighter because of it's speed and gunpower. He didn't care about lack of hyperengine of shields.

[the_mask]

Then we have Grand Admiral Thrawn walk onto the scene and discover the cloning facilities in Mount Tantiss on Wayland. Now, this raises the quesiton of whether these facilities were used by the Empire in secret during the OT

Hmm, forgotten 'Dark Empire', you have

 

In my (!) opinion Wayland, with its private museum of trophies was a personal cloning plant for the Emperor (like Byss) to supply him with the dearly needed clones of himself.

[Guest JediIgor]

It goes with TIE fighter pilots as well, who in their right mind would get into an unshielded fighter at the complete mercy of a mother carrier? Dwell on this. I believe when we get to see Ep3 you'll catch onto what i'm on about.

 

In the Han Solo trilogy, more precisely in the book 'the Hutt gambit', Han Solo says something about it.

He had flown in many types of ships in the imperial navy, like cruisers and freighters, but most of all he adored the small and swift TIE fighter because of it's speed and gunpower. He didn't care about lack of hyperengine of shields.

 

Yeah, so the TIE Fighters must definitely be faster, swifter, pack more firepower than any of the pre-ANH ships or the Empire would've never defeated the Separatists .

[Stellar_Magic]

But the Empire didn't defeat the Seperatists...haven't you heard of the Rebellion?

 

Well even in ANH the TIE fighter is suppose to be slightly faster then an X-wing. Ties have better maneuverability, and acceleration. Firepower, well thats up to debate, I think a Tie's rate of fire on its cannons is higher then the X-wing, but do they pack more punch? I don't know.

 

I'll tell you a little secret, in the XWA series I always fly as a member of the Tie series if I'm doing multiplayer, because I love its maneuverability.

[Guest Scathane]

I must say I stick with Jahled's notion and shall do so by commenting on Stellar.

 

Economical sense? Well which is cheaper?

 

Pay Kamino to build trillions of clones, feed them, give them health care and so forth for four years until they age enough to be useful in combat.

 

--Or--

 

Pay Kamino to make a couple hundred thousand clones, and recruit trillions of other people, pay them minimum wage and give them combat training.

 

In the end, Kamino would probably be more expensive, you've still got to pay for food, armor, and medicine in both cases. In the case of the clones though you've got to pay much more because of the highly specialized service they offer, it's not like anyone can make human clones in Star Wars.

You are gravely mistaken, my dear friend. You have to realize that the astronomous cost you're talking about is an initial one. It's the same as with a printing press: the first blueprint is quite expensive to make, but once it's made, the relative cost of every new piece of print decreases. Theoretically speaking, this cost would drop down to zero after the gazillionth print. Moreover, companies like MacDonalds and Ikea are built on this very principal: as long as your prodcut remains modular, it gets cheaper by the dozen.

 

From this viewpoint, it would be strange for Palpatine to embark on recruiting people.

 

Militarily, relying on clones is one of the worst possible moves imaginable.

 

First, using exclusively clones for your army grown at one place has one very major and obvious problem. You loose Kamino and you're stuck. (I personnaly believe we'll see Kamino's cloning facilities destroyed in Ep III)

Where is it said that Kamino remains the only place where clones are produced? After the Empire's rise to power, it seems only logical that it initiated other cloning farms in other places.

 

Secondly, it takes as much as four years to make a clone according to the film, four years, and can you seriously believe that Kamino had trillions of cloning cylinders? In truth the clones cannot possibly fill out the needs of a broad war, the droid army can double in size in a week while it would take a year at the least for the clone army to double in size. If you recruited you could double the size of your force in a few months not a year.

What goes for cost, goes here as well. If you keep repeating you production processes over and over, it's only natural that you become more efficient, so the time it talkes to breed a clone would probably drop. Besides, it only 'takes four years once' if you start breeding at a one year interval.

 

Last argument: why would you address troopers with their serial number when they all have names?

 

No, I agree with Jahled: operational excellence is what the Empire is all about!