R2-Opus2

I have the first Terminator/Robocop type crossover they did back in the early '90s, that was a pretty good tail that linked Robo's cyborg history to that of the future Terminators. I thought it was pretty cool anyway. And as far as I'm concerned, the only other crossover of this type that I like the best, is probably the original AvP graphic novel, followed up by its sequel, the one dealing with the same main female character. The third one I didn't like all that much or any others in that series, but its been a long time since I stayed up with it, so it might have gotten better. But if they made a crossover film, I hope they go with that original one.

True, time will tell if he'll be popular in the job as was his film buddy Ventura. Now that was a guy who fought an uphill battle. If he approaches his policies with an air of common sense the way Ventura did, I think he'll do alright. Course, whether or not his state legislature will go along with any of them is a different thing entirely. If he's wise enough too to surround himself with decent advisors, he shouldn't look all that bad though politically speaking.

I'm not sure what you want to know. My thoughts on him though is that his culture is also one that embraces cloning just as Kaminoans do, but I don't know yet that its clear if Kaminoans themselves are clones, or if they are just in the business of making them for others. The distinction between the two cultures in my view is that Dorsk's races is a bonefied "cloning culture" as is the Kaminoans, however Dorsk's race does not do it for profit, but for bettering his race. While I think they have divergent cloning technologies between the two, I would also guess that clone maturation periods are not entirely too dissimilar, but I'd have to refresh myself as to Dorsk's culture's processes a little in that respect. As for Dorsk's force abiltiy being a clone, I would chalk that up to being more a case of random mutation, not unlike the odds of any other race, culture, or individual with the "potential" to make something of it or have it crop up. Whether Dorsk's culture through their entire cloning history has ever spawned a force sensitive clone before or not is unclear, but if this is a new phenomena starting with 81, then I'd tend to stand by the random mutation thing, and that, had they not been a "cloning culture", they might have had more force sensitives. His particular cloning line though is interesting, because after he died, Dorsk 82 was created and he too, had Force potential. I'd be curious to wonder if from the line where this Force potential did crop up (starting from 81), if it would continue onward through that lineage past 82. From my memory, I think they say every subsequent clone in a family lineage is a direct copy of the clone immediately preceding it, so it may be quite posible every future "Dorsk clone" would be Force sensitive to one degree or other. If the copy machine analogy applies here too, that a copy of a copy of a copy, would somehow loose some intergrity along the line, then I would probably agree that this Force ability in future Dorsk clones would be lessoned, not greater. Unless of course there's something inherent in how they process clones is different in regards to perserving said integrity of previous incarnations.

I remember people here worried about if they had the right to sift through a person's library records and such, and that that had recently been refuted by Ashcroft at some conference. I don't know what to think about it frankly, cause I don't know the details.. I think that some elements of it are probably taken out of context and scrutinzed more than others just in my cursory observations of media coverage on the subject. Actually I truely do wonder if its problems with the Act, or some kind of animosity towards Ashcroft personally. I know there were complications in getting Bush's guy here confirmed, so I could easily understand how any little thing the man says or proposes would get slammed left and right by his critics. But again, this is just the vibe I get just in disseminating what I read and hear on the news. There's so much noise and not enough fact for me to reach any conclusions of my own. Since the news we tend to get is slanted one way or the other, usually for the sake of sensationalizing one thing or other, I have a hard time believing what I hear or see at face value since generally speaking, to get attention and to compete with other news agencies, they go with the other value, shock value to rope people in. The way I view news lately here in the US is largely along those lines. We might not be one of those countries that suffers from propoganda the way other state-run agencies in other contolling countries are, but I tend to get the sense it is only because of the bias that exists in this free market to sensationalize rather than aim for more truth under a free press. There's more opinions than actual facts, and the local news is flooded with bad news and tragedies more than anything else. True, some bad news might be true, but I don't always wanna hear about some car crash or robbery while I'm eating dinner heh Where's all the good true news? All one has to do is scan the news channels for stories on Iraq and you'll know what I mean. Its like they can't wait to tell you when an American soldier or two dies that day, but they say virtually nothing about anything else good that's going on there in regards to getting that country on its feet.

Actually I think this is closer to a lemming mentality. Not unlike all those other lemmings that feel they absolutely must go shopping the day after Thanksgiving, which incidentally, are the same lemmings that absolutely must return stuff the day after Xmas I think people were looking for a candidate who seemed the most charismatic, not whether or not they actually thought they could do a better job. If it wasn't charisma they were after, they just wanted someone different in office and they didn't care who. Honestly I couldn't really tell at all what the previous Gov had done wrong, though I hadn't realized he served a complete term before last years election until last week. That's how much I give a crap about California's elections, I live in Maryland for chrissakes heh so I've been tuning out what's been going on. But like anything that comes off as a train wreck in the media...we have to watch it, cause frankly, they aren't going to show anything else even if you begged them.

For me its not so much the case that Robocop sucks, its that it appears inadequate when weighing its technological abilities against the Terminators or the Predators. Now if you lost him and made it between Terminators and Predators, ya might have a more even playground where things could go all kindsa ways. The only thing I don't know if the Terminators have (since we don't see much out of those "future war" segments) is where they are with space technology. Course they probably don't need it if they can time travel so I'd have to give them that angle. i.e. Predator shows up; starts cutting off Terminator heads for its collection... Terminator goes back in time five minutes and sets an ambush heh Dunno, could go either way depending on what type of Terminator we're talking about and then of course when it happens

To address the Thrawn series a bit with these things. I would tend to reckon that the reason Luke senses these clones to be strange in the force (even though they were able to be grown fast, they still functioned well: there was no indication of life spans of those - either the types that could mature to be nuts, or the ones made using the yslamiri trick), is because of their short maturation period. Even though these, the ones that supposedly wouldn't go mad worked, there had to be a flaw in them somewhere that Luke could pick up on. Thrawn's must have had some other minute flaw about them, despite his ability to get around the "proper" maturation period. Its either that, or the experience of sensing them in the Force is exactly the same as how Obi-Wan sensed the Republic Clones, (only that was never eluded to that he sensed them in the Force while at Kamino the exact same way). Actually, I think it would be more his style say, if he made enough to help him take key worlds, then use his political power to pass a law banning their use (maybe not their use in the case of the current ones...just future production of any, so no one can rival his) just prior to the Republic's fall (or maybe even after) right after the initial war. By this same token, if banning further production of any clones...after he's made use of his (yet not ordering them destroyed cause that might seem indescreet, they are living beings, not droids after all ), this'll probably be about the same time they pass a law banning the production of war droids (even though the Empire builds their own later on down the line, this is more to abolish competition and threats to his immediate national security). So basically from the stance of the scheming politician, I can easily see him doing something like this. I mean, he'll already have the clones and initial starfleet he'll need to to hold key sectors of space so in a way, he might not even have to make more clones after a while. He can still come off appearing appeasing to the masses like he said he would, by standing down his army, but he'll have to have something else convincing in play to persuade others (simple minds like Jar Jar), that it wouldn't be prudent at that time and that they recommend he hold the reigns indefinitely by not standing that army down, but keeping it to secure trade routes for instance. So in the early days after the war, and including any arguments he might have suggested (or manipulated other senators to suggest for him) that he maintain a security presence indefinitely, he'd already have a solid recruitment base for soldiers and troops to pick up slack from the clones (pre-forced conscription policies). Anyway, this isn't to say either that Palpy couldn't still blame the Jedi for ordering those clones as mask suggests...but the problem I have with it atm is that Palpy would have to really distance himself from the Jedi before he did it or he could just as likely be implicated (he did serve a 10 yr reign as Chancellor already by this point after all, and them clones take as long to make). No, I rather think that if does want to blame them though, he'll use some other outraged senator to implicate them for him without being overt about it himself...In exactly the same way he had positioned Jar Jar to pass that act of war thingymabob so he could stay in office longer. By appearing like he's still a friend of the Jedi and appearing to stand for them when such a manipulated senator spoke out, Palpy's credibility with the Jedi wouldn't be threatened before he wanted it to be, and the Jedi at least, still wouldn't suspect him of any duplicity until it was too late...much too late...like after several dozens more died in accidents or something

I only have a few strategy games I'm rotating with atm, all of those real-time types. In no particular order in this rotation: Star Trek Armada II, Master of Orion III (I haven't really gone back to it post-patch yet), Rebellion & Force Commander. Of the non-real-time types or turn based, the original X-COM from '94 is still one of my all time favorites, though unfortunately I need to downgrade to a proper PC to play it. I think one of the Playstation systems came up with a console version of it, I may have to break down and get one. Its a shame when the only reason I can think of to get a console is for one game I'm very nostalgic for. That whole first year I had it, I must have only switched between that game and the original X-Wing flight sim. Possibly the first Master of Orion game if it came out in that time frame as well, but as I remember, '94-'95 was pretty much dominated by X-COM. Killed many an hour with that one. I'd really love to see an up to date version of the original X-COM, but for current PC standards. Preferably turn based again since I sucked at its successor X-COM Apocolypse (though that one gave us a choice which was nice of them, it had a turn based option as well as a real time option). I'd be happy either way.

Interesting numbers Trej. Yep, I can definitely see how conscription percentages might out perform standard recruitment. Especially depending on the speed with which the Empire conquers worlds in those early years where the propoganda machine hadn't taken hold beforehand. I think though the answer to the expected concentration of clone production could only be better guessed at if new facilities are revealed in the next film...or some sign there was more than one production facility being planned elsewhere. I wonder though what the current capacity the Kaminoans have for producing X number of clones per year is. When Pan We or whatever-her-skinny-self said talking to Obi-Wan is anything do go on (she said some were ready now, another 1 mil+ were almost ready), I don't know. But I wonder if those numbers are anywhere near their top capacity for production. If Palpy felt he'd need more, he might have needed other production facilities duplicated on other worlds so that those production outputs could overlap one another. I wouldn't have put it passed Palps to have made provisions to have other secret places besides Kamino to make his troops. I mean, this was only one world the Jedi found out about that they had done this without the Council's approval. And though we learn of Wayland later, I do not know if it was an early participant in clone production as Kamino was or strictly a dormant storehouse until Thrawn's days. Still, when worlds willingly began to become part of the Empire, I doubt that he might have had to maintain a high level of clone production on a steady basis as seen in AOTC. Not if he could expect a high percentage of standard recruiting from fully swayed systems. I mean, if all was taken into account was Kamino as the sole source of clones, he wouldn't have had enough of those to maintain his grip unless he had a similar initial order of 1-2 mil+ set to be ready each successive year after these were ready by the time of this film...then throughout his 20+ year reign (and further if his source of clones took longer and longer to disable as the GCW raged). Even then he might not have enough to maintain his grip, just speaking of clones here. He'd have to have a standard army of normal willing recruits + conscripts + a steady flow of equipment all at the same time. Some made in secret (pre-fall of the Republic) and some produced publically. Part of this process partially hindered by the fact that they still had a Senate up until the DS was built, so many things more likely made in secret than public due to bureaucratic hassles with the Senate. I guess my point if I have one is, right now I don't know that clones could have made up the bulk of his service folks, but perhaps, just perhaps, the majority of his troops as a whole, minus army or any other branch we see folks' faces.

Perhaps this could be some other ability or use of having a General onboard a fleet? Or some combined ability between having a General AND an Admiral in the same fleet equaling better capture potential of ships/defense of these new captures (with an admiral). Maybe Commanders and Generals ought to have a combo of their own when there's no Admiral (fighters equipped with ions would disable not kill a higher percentage of the time i.e. commander's realm, then any ships with troops get tied up assaulting them for capture if you have a general too. But without an Admiral, less ships protect new captures during the combat phase). I think there's some good potential pros and cons with having this ability that could enrich combat. A paper/rock/scissors type deal if you will. Plus if having a ship disabled and captured were to subsequently tie up that new ship for repair time (+ having to guard it till it can move again) if the status next to it is an X above a planet. Could also act as a band aid too in tough resource crunches. Say a ship has become yours but because of its high downtime for repairs, you could opt to scrap it and rake in some maintenance points.

Actually, I don't think they could have had less than 5 cruisers at the time of Executor's destruction. A couple pages back we can at least confirm 7 (including Home One) before the superlaser took those two out. Anything either side might have had NOT SEEN aside, we know there are 4 "wingless" cruisers including Home One in that shot of them turning around from the DS shield, plus 2 winged "Liberty-types". All sarcasm from your comment aside, a good chunk of the Imp fleet retreated and we still do not know if ALL ISDs besides those seen shooting got a shot off let alone if the Imps launched ALL fighters (of all the TIEs and Interceptors since we know no bombers were seen). Do we know for certain all 24 ISDs were the Imp II version? If they were not that effects the gun numbers too...those that were close enough to fight that is. While I am convinced an ISD I or II's placement of shield generators is a major design flaw (not to mention not having an auxilary control room i.e. see the death of Exectuor), according to the flight sim games, they had one more, that bulbous shape on the underside of the ship near the stern. Again, this assumes that the games have it right. Its not that I think its a backup, mearly that two primarily protect the bridge only and one covers the rest...I don't believe either had "backup shields" in the same sense the Mon Cals did, but I do believe their strength when fully operational is superior. And in that sense if that is indeed their specs, it is not hard to believe Imp stars could be killed "on the cheap" as you put it given the design flaws I sighted, however I'm not convinced every single fighter that wasn't a bomber, or that even every Imp star managed to help (by proximity mainly for some ISDs). What I am convinced about is the overall strength the Imps possessed (minus unknowns like what the uncompleted DS could sport in the way of fighters for example post shield loss, since we know rebel fighters could not breech the shield when it was up). What we know is they lost despite their clear advantage but they didn't make use of certain opportunities. They had overwhelming force and didn't use it to its full effect. What I would want to know though given their supposed strength, putting the Emperor's influence aside, is how many of their ships fell before they decided they didn't have what it took to finish the job? I still think there had to be other factors at work for the Rebels to win besides simply that the Emperor kicked the bucket and the remaining Imps ran.

First, agree the Imps had overwelmingly superior firepower, however it was not used overwelmingly now was it? Realistic or no, they were hindered by orders which likely also influenced their ability to make creative decisions in the heat of battle to protect themselves. As for the Rebel's financing of special projects like the B-Wing, by this time I'm sure there were many worlds secretly throwing in their support, resources, personnel (including scientists and engineers) as well as financial backing where they could. Sullust had recently openly threw in their support, and they are a major industrial planet. Granted I have to wonder what kind of time transpired before they could benefit greatly from its joining, but this is just one world among many. A galaxy is a big place. Finally about the Mon Cal ships, I was under the impression that overall, their shields were weak, but that their only advantage was that they had redundancy. If they indeed had that ability at Endor, that would partly explain their longevity in combat, but not totally. Those refits I agree do take time to convert to warships, however the Mon Cals did have time just before joining the Alliance but just after they rebelled against the Imps to make those adjustments. They had begun conversions long before joining the Alliance, at least, that's my understanding. It might have been enough time even if the only argument left about them is that only those half a dozon or so Mon Cal ships at the battle were fully battle ready.

I don't care if I'm living a simulation or the real thing...so long as pizza tastes the same

Yea that's that whole Force thing again there that makes it unrealistic if you get right down to it. Otherwise I would argue that the Imperial commanders are just as adept as the opposition's commanders to improvise when needed (or at least should be if any of them had engaged Rebels before w/out the Emperor's "supervision"). The thing that hampers Piett though is his orginial orders...they apparently left little room for reinterpretation. While I know the movie's elapsed time of the events appears fast, I wonder if those times are to be taken that literally or not for the battle. As for none of the DS personel bothering Luke as he's taking Vader to his shuttle, i don't think, especially after the Emperor died and his subsequent influence over his forces died with him, that there were any officers looking to make a name for themselves by interfering such as the one Luke surrendered to on the planet (there's a cool side story about that in one of the rpg books). And with all the walls coming in on everyone onboard, escape is on everyone's mind by that point. Heck, I don't know if they even had time to turn their head in a double take fashion to verify what they were seeing heh

Yea, those ships you had circled in purple in your first picture as possible B-Wings, the same one I was using as a reference in a couple posts, I couldn't tell for certain if they were two more Nebulon Bs facing the viewer, hence the odd profile. Its hard to guage the perspective in a few instances.

Yea I had trouble with Piett. I knew there was either two "i's two "e's or two "ts' so I left it at one each figuring you guys would know who I meant This is kind of where I was aiming to address the fine line of retreating or remaining. I do not think Ackbar would have remained if he had not many fighters with decent punch left...Otherwise all he has is 7 or so large enough ships to ram ISDs with if it came to that plus any they took out with their concentrated barrages (I would argue he'd be lucky to knock out a little over half a dozen (maybe a few more through ramming) with insufficient fighter support just with his heavy cap ships). Not enough to be to be worth a suicide attempt especially when the DS shield was up. While all that close duking is taking place between the fleets, he has to closely monitor his active squadrons so that when the shield does fall at least a couple squads can be diverted. Even if they expected to lose, I think that point had to have been lurking in his decision to stay besides simply trusting in Calrissian's judgement.

Never said either that harrassing equaled attack and destroy with those fighters. I know they didn't fight that way and I'm in agreeance the Emperor wanted to take his sweet time. And true as well, Armchair Piet does run that risk of electroshock therapy early I'll grant you that. But now there's another time factor in terms of the distance between the two fleets as they begin to close on one another (was there or wasn't there time? i.e. presuming rebel fleet is approaching at flank speeds). It probably would be overkill to deploy bombers, however this original plan of the Emperor's...the slow methodical destruction of the Rebel fleet by the superlaser, becomes questionable at a given distance. Questionable as an armchair commander at that point mind you. In Piet's own mind though, I seriously have to wonder that if they were having difficulty with their TIEs already in the field, why he didn't deploy the rest of them to protect his fleet (even if they weren't used to assault, just protect). Course, if the Emperor forbid him or didn't explicity allow for that (the overconfidence thing again + that maybe there was still fighters out there in sufficient quantity not to consider it), it probably never dawned on him or the other ISD commanders. Part of this in my mind also goes back to how seriously they wanted the Rebels wiped off the map. If they were really serious (paying very close attention to the battle), I might have thought Piet could have been given some leeway. Instead they wanted the slow torturous way of dispatching them with the laser.

Going back over things I thought I might have contradicted myself, then realized I was playing armchair Piet at the time As armchair Piet I was saying that it wouldn't have mattered that bombers use pre-point blank would have been dangerous because other TIEs and Interceptors were already risking themselves fighting close in on the fleet so a few more wouldn't have hurt, and in my last post I say the most likely reason why bombers weren't used then is directly linked to the recharge rate of the superlaser. Oh and I do believe Piet had the time to give the order post-point blank so I think there's no excuse from a command perspective, other than that whacky-blocking-creative-thinking Force thing

What I meant about balance has more to do with their "fighting chance", and I'm well aware why they stayed. However there's still a good chunk of time pre-post blank attack that I have trouble with in terms of reconciling the high concentration of TIE fighters to the Rebel fighters we see, and why they were used such as they were. For instance as I already pointed out, the Imps' pilots at that point only had two objectives 1) harry the rebel fighters and cruisers 2) keep them at bay while the superlaser fires. The problem I see with point 1 especially, is that I am not convinced those TIEs were aiming to destroy any cruisers, just draw fire because it woud be a waste of energy on their parts to do so when they've got the ultimate weapon that can do this more expediently. There's a big gamble here on its own. They had to rely on the speed with which that laser recharges to fire again...So where were those bombers in the interim? Why did they feel it prudent to withold them? You could use the same argument that its because the superlaser is more efficient, hence no bombers, but again I feel their deployment is greatly tied to the recharge rate of that laser. Either way again...bombers or no bombers, they had the fighters to concentrate fire on a cruiser at a time if they wanted, instead everything appeared to look helter skelter on their parts just so the laser could fire again. The time between superlaser blasts I feel is probably one of the biggest reasons why bombers weren't used in the beginning...but this doesn't explain why they didn't come out to play when things were initially evolving into the point blank plan. Ackbar may have trusted Calrissian yes. But he had to weigh that decision heavily with his assets, albeit a quick decision...Its not that I think he knew he might win, quite the contrary. I think he and everyone else was ready to die and take a chunk of the enemy fleet with them doing so...Only when they realized they would in fact stay not run. In the midst of that aspect is when they felt they had the fighting chance and hope for victory...1) is obviously that they hopefully avoid the superlaser...a temporary fix to solve their immediate distruction. 2) When they actually began to cripple or destroy an ISD or two 3) When the DS shield fell This is most apparently buying time for Han in this area, but they weren't buying much time at all when the shield was up before going head to head. After they went head to head they initially expected to die I guess what I'm coming down to is, there had to be enough assets in the back of Ackbar's mind in that brief split second decision when he chose to stay, "because they'd never get another shot like this." The balance must have been a fine one despite that statement, othewise Ackbar might have ordered that retreat a second time overuling Calrissian's opinion. For instance, I would argue had he had no more Ys or Bs left, he'd have run most definitely. I feel its these bombers that were integral in turning the tide, perhaps also responsible for preventing additional enemy fighters from being deployed by disabling some ISDs. There's no point in risking a suicide mission if you only hope to take out just one or two of the 26 ISDs + Executor

I remember one instance during a diplomacy mission I had just canceled right after the planet turned to my side, I saw a fleet on its way. I didn't run an espionage mission, so it must have had to do with either 1) the character or 2) the popular support factor. Even though the pop support was a tad over half/half in my favor, I still got that information. It should be noted that it's quite possibly the character, when I'd seen that phenomenon last time, I had Mothma, Leia, & Han among others running that diplomacy mission. I had even seen the same thing "before" the planet turned to my side w/no espionage missions going on there.

In a sense there is a penalty for poor choices....letting the battle go by on the automatic setting rather than in tac mode Sometimes the AI makes odd choices. If you want more mauling action, maybe play more automatic battles hehe But seriously, we do care about the game obviously, and enjoy disussing how it could be better. I really hope given how technology has advanced since the first game, that they would consider an update/sequel myself. I'd prefer it in the classic civil war times like this is, but I'd play one in the Anakin/Obi-wan/Old Republic time frame if it was comparable but better.

Yes, do find out of the geezer was wearing white and if they say he's a Grand Admiral. If he was wearing white that means my TV is shit LOL

This was part of my "generous assumptions" bit about the Rebels, note that assumptions do not equal facts by any means All the wingless cruiser variants to me anyway, look like Home One (though they don't all seem to have exact scale). The allowances were made because for me, I'm trying to understand what the balance was and why the Rebels just didn't flee (far as I know, they weren't trapped by an interdictor holding them there despite Piet's line that "they only needed to hold them here" while the Emperor unleashed his surprise. That implied that they couldn't leave even if they wanted to. Again, to me anyway). The exact composition of fighters on those other 4 wingless and two Liberty-types is just specualation, but because Liberty is smaller than Home One, and the others are damn near close to Liberty's scale (all the cruisers are smaller than Ackbars), so I went with a 1 wing (6 squad) calculation, as they don't seem small enough to be a relative of the MC40 for example, they all seem bigger than that. I've been using the argument that starfighters did most of the work, so I was examining probable Rebel fighter numbers in comparison the Imps' to better understand this "fighting chance" of theirs. For the record, Home One holds 10 squads, not 6. It is one of the only "knowns" of the Rebel fleet. The others are the Neb-Bs which we know can hold 2 squads apiece (with the exception of the modfied medical ones), this is why I separated out those knowns from my speculations. Likewise if what vakundok says is true about there being 9 Nebs (rather than only the 6 I could find) plus that one carrier (if we take things like the novelizations into account), that ups the "knowns" category slightly for the Rebs. The Rebs had low cap ship numbers and that alone does not explain their survivability, it had to be the starfighter element and what they were doing with those prior to the DS shield falling. This would be true to me no matter what numbers we came up with for the fighter amounts on both sides because in the end, it still comes down to how many on each side were actually deployed out of what we know they've got, and second most important...how they were used as objectives changed on both sides. Even with my assumptions about the Rebels' cruisers capacities, the Empire still grossly outmatches the Rebels. But were deployments of those fighters done as smartly as both sides could? I don't know. As for tactics, there's a bunch of stuff I might do differently if I were in Ackbar's or Piet's shoes, but things didn't got that way, so I'm trying to understand why they did those things from each side's perspective. For example, playing "armchair Piet" for a moment...In my first post on this thread (I think on page 8 ), I discuss how evil I think the Emperor is...that he wouldn't have hesitated (had he not been more busy turning Luke) to have fired at his own Starfleet to destroy the Rebels after the point blank strategy. Because he didn't, and his gunners DID hesitate, it should have fallen to Piet to launch his bombers immediately (this would be after the second cruiser fell to the laser, right when the Rebels changed course and Piet realized what they were doing while they were still well away from each other). Piet had two choices though in this respect...to have his bombers already deployed, or to have dispatched them when the rebels turned his way. But it didn't go that way. The fact we didn't see one bomber illustrates they were not planning to use them (perhaps held in reserve to mop up later?) My point...I don't quite get the reasoning (even if I did bring it up heh) that bombers weren't to be used prior to the point blank attack, that the commanders didn't want to risk slower craft while the DS was planning to fire, (or that bomb yields would be too great post-point blank risking their own ships' safety)...they were already risking other fighters fighting close in on the rebel fleet. Since Piet originally was not going to move his fleet in close, something ought to have been out there with more punch in replacement of the fleet being there. But again I'm straying a bit more into speculation and wishful thinking playing armchair commander. A competent commander would have deployed them is all I'm saying, but I know they had a mind trick handicap at work blocking any creative thought heh

Excellent point. We can't really count on whatever detachements the DS II did have until post-shield loss. It might even be questionable whether they dispatched any at all, and the Starfeet's contingent was largely responsible for protection at that point (plus having to deal with protecting its fleet and fighting reb cruisers & fighters not attacking DS II) because they were already deployed. That stretches their fighter forces significantly, including the fact they have now a 4th major objective, protecting the DS. From a logistics point of view, How many squads do you keep with your fleets? How many do you send after the DS party, How many do you keep engaging fighters in dogfights out near fleet? And How many do you keep trying to knock out cruisers? We know things go bad the moment the shield falls, but I still have a problem with the time before that happens (and before point blank attack). There's still time to deal heavy damage to the Rebels then and only 2 objectives for the Imps...Keep fighters and cruisers busy so the superlaser can do its thing. Agreed, their fighter deployment was sloppy. When Piet ordered his fleet to stop, he should have supplemented what was out there with bombers because his fleet wasn't in range at that point (or planning to get in range for that matter). If he had, that would have divided the Reb's primary targets up more. Bombers become a huge threat when you don't have the heavies to engage the fleet (or aren't in range), or were planning to. I think at the beginning, both Piet AND Ackbar did not expect to bring their cap ships in to duke things out. That changes from what I had then to 14 squads at 168 fighters. If your getting this info between pics and the novelization, I'd agree. Some think that what is canon is strictly just what's onscreen, but I tend to believe some importance must be lent to the novelization. I haven't read it in a while, so I have to dig that out. I agree although I have more allowances in my figures to account for why the Rebels survived as long as they did so my squads for the Mon Cal ships are closer to 50. Part of this is due to theforce.net's reasoning that one of the "wingless" cruisers had resembled Home One (the second one destroyed by the laser), so I was being generous in that ship's fighter capacity based on that analysis. I also applied a "one wing" minimum to those Mon Cal ships that were not Home One (or its variant deceased "cousin"). That's how I came to 216 fighters for 3 of the 4 "wingless" ships (18 squads of 12 per squad), 240 for Home One and the 4th "wingless" cousin (10 squads of 12, 120 apiece), and finally one wing each to the two "Liberty-types" (6 squads each, same as above 3 wingless using 1 wing minimum) 144 fighters. With your additional info on the Neb's plus the notation of a carrier in the battle, that raises my calcs (by at least one wing + 4 more squadrons for the Nebs) to 10 more squads at 120 fighters just looking at those by themselves. Granted this assumes the carrier present can hold a wing, let alone if the rebs came to the show with their bays maxed out and that minimum one wing rule is true of those Calamarian ships not Home One or its cousin. This also raises my calc if this is true, as I only went by the 15 known ISDs pictured. Total fighters would come to 1872 (including bombers and recons) in 156 squads just on the ISDs (again, with the Empire it becomes easier to calc their fighters cause each one carries a wing, Executor 2 wings) instead of the 1080 total with just the 15 pictured. If we subtract the bombers and recons out, that's 624 ships (52 squadrons) not used/held in reserve for some bizarre reason...oh yea the Emperor heh. So for the ISDs alone 104 squadrons are presumed active in some capacity and/or on alert...1248 fighters. Add in the Executor's compliment, minus bombers and recons 96 fighters of 144 are added (8 of 12 squads). ISDs squads together with Executor's comes to 112 squads for a total of 1344 active/alert fighters. So before the DS shield drop and your new info, including my assumptions about the rebs above in my calc... Imps have 1344 fighters (112 squads) Rebs have 888 (74 squads) + 1 squad's worth presumably with Falcon raises it to 900 fighters in 75 squads. This all presumes those recons and bombers were held back Whether its right or close to it I don't know, but the important thing is that the Empire, as it should, still outnumbers the Rebels hehe

Yes I was referring to the white haird/mustached guy down the way from Motti (the guy who gets strangled). Anyway, could have sworn he was wearing white. If it was grey, nevermind