Interesting To Note: No Comments?

[SOCL]

I didn't want to start a new topic for this, but I couldn't think of anywhere else to put it.

 

Any how...I'm just a tad surprised no one has mentioned that Saddam Hussein was recently captured and is currently in custody. I, for one, am very happy they finally caught him, but I'm surprised of the total lack of comments or mentions of this event.

 

 

Well, sorry, maybe I should have posted this somewhere else (or not at all).

[Evaders99]

I don't think people would be very happy if I did a post like that. "I told you so" sorta attitude I expect people would not take me very well.

 

 

I congratulate our guys for finding and arresting him. I just hope Iraqi insurgent's stop fighting for his party and begin to work towards a better Iraq.

 

A dictator has been captured and a country has new hope. Let us make sure that they have our support, no matter what opinions of the US or the war. All countries must take responsibility and ensure that such a dictator never returns to rule Iraq.

[Trejiuvanat]

You know us -SWFans- reality and Saddam don't exist within the SW galaxy...

 

I didn't care that much about the news... Basically I woke up and turned on the TV hoping to find the results of how Boca Juniors fared against AC Milan (1-1 and 3-1 in penalties, for Boca if anyone's interested) and found many channels linked to Cnn's coverage of the event.

The capture of Saddam was predictable. It was only a matter of time, I'm rather surprised it took them that long... I, personally, don't think that the capture of Saddam is worth half the effort that news agencies are putting into it, it isn't even of that significance for the Iraqi people.

As for a dictator captured... Well... One captured... Great... Lots of them are still sitting on their cozy little palaces all around the world.... Not that great, eh?... (And I'm not only referring to the bad dictators from the sterotyped evil countries...)

Again that's only my opinion...

[Guest Scathane]

I am glad that they caught him as well because this might relieve some of the tensions in Iraq. On the other hand, I must admit that I'm afraid that Trej may be right regarding the fact that the effect of his capture on tensions in Iraq may be next to zero or the counterproductive...

[dinochick]

LOL, I actually didn't even find ut that they got him untill yesterday whne I got to work. This past week was my last week of classes and I have been so wraped up in that that I completely lost touch with everything else, even this site unfortunatly.

I think its great they got him, although I wasnt sure it was him at first, maybe a decoy. Now if we could just catch that other guy, who isn't the leader of a country who still manages to alude us.

[the_mask]

Yes, thatotherguy was also, who I thought of, when I saw Saddam in the news. I think having him found would be even more useful.

 

I was sceptical at first as well, if it really was Saddam, who was captured. But yesterday when I saw him in the news and saw his eyes and the way he moved I was pretty sure that they caught the right one.

 

Well, one down, ... lots to go

[SOCL]

Like I said earlier, I'm very happy they caught him, but I don't think that the insurgents in Iraq care (I doubt most of them even thought he was in the country, I'm sure they thought he had abandoned them). I think President Bush made a good move by telling the public that just because Saddam Hussein has been captured does not mean the fighting is over. Even so, the majority opinion (at least here on a U.S. Army post and the surrounding communities) is that the war is, in fact, over. Nevermind what the president said and the fact that attacks occured that morning and that evening of the day he was captured, they believe the war will be over even sooner.

 

Blind ignorance, but it's sad to see it coming from those who should know better...

 

...which makes me wonder...

 

...what of the rest of the public? I'm also certain that the majority opinion of this war follows the same trend and that people believe that with Saddam in cuffs, the war is over. I mean, it's human nature to want to blame/target a single person as the source of evil. Think about it: when forces were in Afghanistan, the man on everyone's mind was Osama bin Laden, when in fact the forces there were primarily hunting to bring down the Taliban. Okay, so bin Laden wasn't captured...well, immediatley the politicans (sparked by President Bush) caused a big fuss about Iraq in the next target of the "crusade", and who do we all think of when we think of Iraq...none other than Saddam Hussein.

 

So, the public's attention is diverted from hunting a terrorists to taking out an unjust and ruthless despot (of course, we were first going to hunt terrorists, then nations that harbor terrorism, got flack from the UN, so changed it to "hunting" for weapons of mass destruction...we find none, so now it's regime change and bring democracy to Iraq). So in go the troops, but Saddam is nowhere to be found, so the reason for going into Iraq changes (or adds) from taking Saddam out of power to bringing democracy to Iraq. Still, Hussein aludes us and President Bush declares that "finding Saddam is not important to our mission in Iraq." Suddenly, we stumble across this target and the president says "it was important that we find Saddam and bring him to justice for the crimes he has committed." So the public's attention has been diverted to target Saddam as the cause of all evils in Iraq...when in fact it's not only Hussein but his party and his loyalists.

 

The public may soon start to question why we're still in Iraq when we've captured Hussein. I don't mean to say there isn't a reason, but I'm saying is that the majority of the public will think that with Saddam in cuffs there is no reason to stay in Iraq, when in fact there (at this point) remains. Bush has to be careful or else this war will start to become a very unpopular one.

 

Does all this mean I don't support Bush? No, I just think that the way he ahd gone about the Iraq matter has dug him/us into a hole that neither he nor we (we/us = coalition forces) can easily get out of. People wanted Hussein, and now they have him...they won't want more war. I mean, for goodness sake, there's people everyone saying "the mission is accomplished"! I don't support this war, but the president made it clear (in the most recent reason for being in Iraq) the mission was not to capture Hussein, but to bring democracy to Iraq (though it's been many reasons already).

 

That's what I thought was interesting. I may have left out some thoughts I had on the matter, but I don't mean this a stab at Bush or anyone else, just that the public should be informed and should understand that the war (as far as Bush and the other coalition nations are, so far, concerned) is not over.

 

 

 

 

...phew.

[Trejiuvanat]

Most of your post could be resumed in one definition of democracy as the rule of the one that manages to manipulate the masses in the most effective way.

 

Bush is a politician, there are more things in his agenda than Iraq, such as a possible re-election. He needs the public to see what he (and his administration) has(ve) achieved. For the general public to understand the war would mean to despise the war. Everyone who fully realizes what war means, can do nothing but hate war. War is war, it's an ugly thing. There are no such things as justified wars. Not in Iraq, not in Afghanistan, nowhere.

The war in Iraq won't be over for a long time, not as long as there are Coalition troops there. Most Iraqi's welcomed the war against Saddam's regime, because they trust that getting rid of the US would be easier than getting rid of Saddam.

Bush knows this, of course, but it's Christmas time, no one would like to admit that war isn't over, so he focuses on Saddam. Ending the year with Saddam's capture is the perfect Christmas gift for an entire country don't you think? Especially if Iraq has been in the minds of the U.S. Citizens all year long. Therefore all the fuss over it, although it doesn't deserve that much attention. When Milosevic was captured there wasn't even half of the fuss as they are making now...

[SOCL]

Quite true, Trej. Many people have said that with this capture, Bush has basically won the re-election. I mean, it's all politics. Instantly after his capture, all the democratic presidential candidates went into "mud-slinging" mode, quickly running to praise Bush for capturing Hussein (even though most didn't support him before that) and moving against Howard Dean (a candidate who opposes war). Well, I suppose politics is not an honest game, but that's still no excuse. If the people continue in support of the war, then Bush will win the re-election, but if the people decide that the war should end (now that Hussein has been captured), then Bush is done for. Well, I guess we'll see. Now, I don't mean to talk so much about the USA, but I don't know a whole lot more about the other coalition nations, plus the USA dominates it (no matter what anyone else says...just like Bush blew-off the UN's Security Council).

 

Mentioning Milosevic, Trej, you're 100% correct: they hardly made him important. I mean, he was just as bad (maybe even worse, some argue)! So, why do people pay more attention to Hussein? Well, first Milosevic is from the Balkans, a region that doesn't cause people to sit up and pay attention as much as the Middle East. Why this? Well, the USA has been involved in the Middle East for a very long time and after setting it on fire back in the `80s and `90s is now trying to douse those same flames, so people know more about it than the Balkans. Second, Hussein is famous. George I (the first Bush) attacked Iraq back in the early `90s, after the USA sponsored Hussein with weapons and such in civil fighting amongst the Iraqis, bringing the man into the spotlight. After the Persian Gulf War, no one forgot about Hussein. Then, in the mid-90s, Hussein was brought back into center stage when he did not allow UN weapons inspectors into Iraq, so President Clinton (in Operation Desert Fox) cruise-missiled Hussein until the man changed his mind. This was, of course, after extensive negotiations. So, of course, no one has forgotten about Hussein, because the USA has not taken the spotlight on him since George I to acknowledge other evils in this world, and now George II is leading this "crusade against evil." So...the reason more attention is currently given to Hussein over other evil despots is because he has been the center of attention as the "evil in the world" for over a decade!

 

But with Hussein now captured, the public is either going to get tired of this war (because the way many see it, the mission is accomplished and, thus, over) or is going to move to target someone else. I guess we can only wait and see who Bush deems as the next target on his list of "Axis of Evil."

 

Thoughts?

[Evaders99]

Hey, I agree with you guys. It's politics for ya

 

Though the capture of Hussein and the subsequent trial will ultimately give more credibility to the Bush administration and the U.S. while diminishing his opponents. Namely, Howard Dean and the whole "Hussein doesn't matter" bit.

 

Well that's my read on the situation. It will take time for Iraq to change.. it will be long and it will be hard. But I'm sure we will have the dedication to weather the storm, as after the end of World War 2, as after the end of the Cold War. Things will be rebuilt and life will be better. All we need is hope.

 

I'm in a good mood.

[R2-Opus2]

My impression of these "insurgent terrorist types" is that they are largely mercenary, fighthing for power in the same way that brought Hussein into the picutre 30+ years ago. They're all wannabe dictators and thugs or they're plants from other arab countries looking to mold Iraq themselves into a more amenable arab state to themselves. I think they are scared to death that there could be a democratic arab state right in the middle of everyone else in the region.

 

Actually I think what they are more afraid of is a government that is tolerant of its citizens' and actually cares about their futures. I also think that without tolerance, there can be no peace or for that matter, freedom. I am still finding insidents of terrorists who still blow themselves up to take something of their enemies with them to be ironic. I mean, its been many nations' policies for a couple of decades now not to negotiate with them, so I can't see the reason clear enough in my head as to "why they fight". I don't see what it is they're hoping to gain other than to force us out like Vietnam through guerilla tactics, and we all know that ain't going to happen.

 

I also think the media's portrayal of events is terrible as usual. I still hear the same stories as everyone else, but when I hear an interview with soldiers over there from time to time, they still get nods of approval by many Iraqi citizens, because they all know what is at stake here all too well, and I think what the media forgets is that its their futures at stake here, a future without a dictator, then the process of building a government from scratch that respects its citizens.

 

I've known all along that there is no such thing as an instant solution to something like this, and its appalling to me to get this vibe from those in the media who think nation building is a fairly straight forward process. I know we cannot ignore the money that is needed to do all this, but what's more important is we cannot ignore the human element on all sides. We can't leave this job half done like Somalia and "hope" everything turns out ok so we can say "we did our best" just so we can sleep at night.

 

The Iraqis have been living in fear for 30 years. I know its not easy for some of the generation thats there now to give up their predjudices...many have only known life under Saddam and fear change and this is understandable. But like Yoda says, they need to unlearn some things they've learned (heh, bet you were wondering how I would tie this in to Star Wars )

 

Anyway, now they've got their freedom, the rest will take time obviously, and while we can quibble over the reasons why we went in, the point now is that we're there, now what? I just think we need to leave that place in better shape than the way we saw it before. As for the terrorists, I almost feel sorry for them...They'll only ever always know war, because they will never want to associate themselves with the concept of the tolerance of others.

[SOCL]

Namely, Howard Dean and the whole "Hussein doesn't matter" bit.

But if I recall correctly, George II said the same thing when our forces couldn't find Hussein. And now he's saying the same thing about the weapons of mass destruction, since we can't find any.

 

 

 

This is what I really took exception to (I felt almost insulted, quite honestly)...so...I'm sorry to break it to you, R2-Opus2, but what you have posted is mostly quite ignorant.

 

My impression of these "insurgent terrorist types" is that they are largely mercenary, fighthing for power in the same way that brought Hussein into the picutre 30+ years ago.

This is possible, so I won't argue it.

 

They're all wannabe dictators and thugs or they're plants from other arab countries looking to mold Iraq themselves into a more amenable arab state to themselves.

This last statement though cannot further from wrong. The other Arab nations around Iraq could, quite honestly, care less about what happens to Iraq as long as it does not turn into another pre-Castro Cuba (AKA: controlled by the USA). Other nations are more interested in keeping the USA and the other coalition forces out of their nations to care about what happens to Iraq. What they also don't want is Iraq to be split into three sections (which is what some have wanted). One such post-Hussein Iraq nation proposed was "Kurdistan" to the north, but neitehr the Iraqi people, nor the other nations will support such a split (the people who want the split are the immigrant Kurds--from Turkey--and those who want power, most of which have US backing).

 

I think they are scared to death that there could be a democratic arab state right in the middle of everyone else in the region.

 

Actually I think what they are more afraid of is a government that is tolerant of its citizens' and actually cares about their futures.

Sorry to say it, but you thought wrong. The public in the region is not scared of a "free" and/or "democratic" nation...as a matter of fact, they could care less. What the people there do not want is a nation established by the USA and, thus, partially controlled by it. They are not scared, if they were, they wouldn't be opposing us. Plus, I think you have missed the fact these are not the people of the Middle East, these are a small group of people. The ones who fight coaltion forces are another group who, like most, don't want the USA in the Middle East controlling a nation. The people opposing the US are not all the people of the Middle East.

 

I mean, its been many nations' policies for a couple of decades now not to negotiate with them, so I can't see the reason clear enough in my head as to "why they fight".

I'm sure you've never been oppressed and had another nation rule you through the economy and political pressures (and now, apparently, military force). They fight because they feel oppressed, but are they all? Of course not, that's why they don't all go out and "blow themselves up" for a cause. Again, it's a group, not all the people of the Middle East.

 

I don't see what it is they're hoping to gain other than to force us out like Vietnam through guerilla tactics, and we all know that ain't going to happen.

Unless, like Vietnam, the war becomes unpopular and the military stops supporting it. And don't tell me that neither one of those won't happen, especially the latter, because I'm sure you don't talk to soldiers and generals everyday about this war (which I, by the way, do).

 

I still hear the same stories as everyone else, but when I hear an interview with soldiers over there from time to time, they still get nods of approval by many Iraqi citizens, because they all know what is at stake here all too well

Soliders, when interviewed, have to say a certain line, they are not permitted to speak 100% freely. If you spoke to the majority of the soldiers, though, you would see that they do not want to be there and, won't say it, but do not agree with the war.

 

and I think what the media forgets is that its their futures at stake here, a future without a dictator, then the process of building a government from scratch that respects its citizens

The media has probably forgotten that the future is at stake here and it's sad to see the news never mentioning--or at least, not making big deals about--successes that have not be violent, for they outnumber the violent ones.

 

I know we cannot ignore the money that is needed to do all this, but what's more important is we cannot ignore the human element on all sides. We can't leave this job half done like Somalia and "hope" everything turns out ok so we can say "we did our best" just so we can sleep at night.

What you said here confuses me. You talk about the human element, but the USA pulled out of Somalia because of the human element...a failed operation that got many of my father's and girlfriend's father's close friends killed. No one ever said "we did our best" about Somalia, but instead, people said that we didn't want a repeat of Vietnam (same reason we didn't conduct a ground invasion of Kosovo). Now, yes, we should help the people of Iraq who were oppressed under Hussein, but comparing it to Somalia is a not correct since we didn't leave Somalia hoping the problem would resolve itself, plus, we're trying to establish a government in Iraq, we were not trying to do that in Somalia. Again, to compare the two situations would be and is folly.

 

The Iraqis have been living in fear for 30 years.

Yes, but not exclusively from Saddam Hussein, they also feared and still fear the USA, not because we "bring" freedom and democracy, but because of the control they fear the USA will have over them. I acknowledge they feared Hussein, but they also fear the USA.

 

I know its not easy for some of the generation thats there now to give up their predjudices...many have only known life under Saddam and fear change and this is understandable.

Sorry, but what the media and popular opinion tells us (such as this and that the Arab people all hate us) are lies. They don't fear change from Hussein's rule, instead, they fear that what may come in place of it is rule under George II.

 

As for the terrorists, I almost feel sorry for them...They'll only ever always know war, because they will never want to associate themselves with the concept of the tolerance of others.

Again, another generalization. The people who do these terrorist actions and "never want to associate themselves with the concept of the tolerance of others" are a small, extremist group. Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein: these are exceptions to the majority of the people in the Middle East. It's like the myth that all Muslims hate the USA, it's not true, only a very few amount of Muslims hate the USA. Terrorists can by Middle Easteners (just like they can be Americans, British, Greek, Brazilian, Australia, etc), but all Middle Easteners are not terrorists.

 

I sound like I think I'm 100% correct and such, right? Well, I know I'm not 100% sure, but I do know that most of what you said is not correct. Why? Well, A) My girlfriend (Kelly) lived in Jordan and Kuwait and has spoken to me in the past for very long times about the truth in the Middle East, B) I know MANY soldiers, MANY generals, & MANY admirals and their real opinion is rarely understoood, much less publicly acknowledged, C) I know many people who have lived in the Middle East, D) I have studied the Middle East for quite some time now, and E) I have studied Islam for many years as well. This doesn't make me an expert, but it does allow me to understand the Middle East better and allows me to make educated statements not based on myth, but, instead, fact.

[Evaders99]

Not to join the debate here, looks like you got you're creditials in order, SOCL Never questioned your knowledge here, and I know I maybe argumentative at times.. but hey, it's what free speech is for. I like what you give to this community.

 

Let's hope these ideas continue. Keep the flaming to a minimum and we'll be okay.

 

More opinions anyone?

[SOCL]

Not to join the debate here, looks like you got you're creditials in order, SOCL Never questioned your knowledge here, and I know I maybe argumentative at times.. but hey, it's what free speech is for. I like what you give to this community.

Thank you, Evaders, I was simply very insulted by what was said by R2-Opus2 and needed to get some points straight.

 

Keep the flaming to a minimum and we'll be okay.

Come again...

[Guest Scathane]

Flaming = writing you're posts in capital letters so that it looks like shouting, the contents of the message often being larded with swaer words...

[Jahled]

I'VE BEEN AWAY FOR QUITE SOME TIME, WHAT'S GOING ON HERE? WHAT IS EVERYBODY ON ABOUT? SORRY, BUT I'M SLIGHTLY DEAF AS A RESULT OF RAF TORNADOS FLYING DAY AND NIGHT OVER WHERE I'VE BEEN STAYING...

[SOCL]

Flaming = writing you're posts in capital letters so that it looks like shouting, the contents of the message often being larded with swaer words...

ARGH! TYPOS!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

EXCELLENT, the almighty DJ Jam--Jahled is back! WOO!

[Jahled]

Yeah,and I wasn't kidding; the 'roar' of fighter jets gets a little bloody boring when you've correctly analyzed the fact your lodgings isn't double glaced!! So much for remote Scotish lochs... Lots of bloody heather and no sleep!

[Guest Scathane]

I'VE BEEN AWAY FOR QUITE SOME TIME, WHAT'S GOING ON HERE? WHAT IS EVERYBODY ON ABOUT? SORRY, BUT I'M SLIGHTLY DEAF AS A RESULT OF RAF TORNADOS FLYING DAY AND NIGHT OVER WHERE I'VE BEEN STAYING...

Brilliant... Just brilliant! Welcome back, Jahled.

[ElvisMiggell]

Get the same thing in Lancaster mate.

[Guest Scathane]

Why is that, by the way?

[Jahled]

There's probably an airbase up there that gives him the same sort of ear ache I was getting in Scotland, where I went for some 'peace and quiet.'

[SOCL]

There's probably an airbase up there that gives him the same sort of ear ache I was getting in Scotland, where I went for some 'peace and quiet.'

Now, with the 101st Airborne Division here at Fort Campbell returning from Iraq, all I hear night and day is the whine of cargo plane engines and the steady, loud, & annoying thump, thump, thump of helicopter rotors.

 

Woo, the boys are home.