Gay Rights

[Tank Buster]

lets have a fun discussion  ;D

 

Sooooo what do you people think about homosexuals? should gay marriges be abolished? should they be supported? should all homosexuals get deported to some isolated place and allowed to live there until they die off?

 

share your thoughts. Personally I think that these days it's all fake.... 100 years ago being gay was almost unheard of. It's so huge now. What has changed since then? I think that some people just do it for attention.

[Dr. Nick]

All homosexuals should be forced to go to an optional labor camp.

[Ghostly_Substance]

Hmm......

 

I had two gays walk by me when I r/c one time and damn did I ever shiver. Unless your a sea horse, a sexually evolved creature or some bio-human altered in a lab I think same sex should just be friends. If they want to do sexual activities or act sexual amongst same sex partners do it in a private area where we could hear about it less. Sorry but yes gays and lesbians existed once humans realized they could love one another including same genders but please don't make a hoot about it. I gave you the respect by not saying anything but if your going to protest and parade about it then let the world will do what the Russians did. The Russians beat the crap out of the gays and lesbians for making too much noise. Don't know if I should word it "we" or "I" or a "few" people but there is respect for those who keep quiet about it and can't help it for the way he/she was brought up and can't do nothing much about it. But again I respected your opinion just don't make a hoot about it your just going to be annoying and just plain old annoying.

 

So what shall be done? Well personally I think gays should just be hushed down upon since even in the past there have been reports of same sexs loving each other and sometimes so much that love just starts radiating like a nuke blast. Sister loving a sister or a sister liking a girlfriend or something like that. Its fine an all but not when it goes to far and same goes with a guy.

 

So where we put them? Tough question. Well lets do what they did back then and just keep quiet, let there be no same sex marriages, but let it be allowed since its human right to do what they want right? However if you start being an idiot and want it to be a major thing then you'll be killed with a sword, a gun or an arrow (or in these days a knife or a gun). Just keep quiet about it  ;D

 

God gave us free will so use it however watch out for the obstacle since the road is never clean (for the path we take).

 

Edit: Who knew I had to edit this 6 times over to actually say it properly.

Edited September 22, 2007 by Ghostly_Substance

[Logan Felipe]

AoSW had a thread about this in the debate forum.

 

See the following link for my and other's opinions about it.

http://www.aoswmod.com/Forums/index.php?topic=1229.0

 

I'm too tired to re-type it. 

[Controller]

100 years ago being gay was almost unheard of. It's so huge now. What has changed since then? I think that some people just do it for attention.

thats because they did it in private. in Ancient Greece it was the norm. see as its a genetic thing, they should have the same rights as the rest of the world

 

as for the AoSW link. that last page is a prime exapmle of why godwins law exist.

[HailKingLerxst]

All homosexuals should be forced to go to an optional labor camp.

 

All idiots like you should be put in a tolerance camp, and this part is to Nick and Ghostly just because someone is gay dosent mean they should be treated differently its not like its a choice there are choices in it though. You choose to ackowledge that you like the same sex you choose to have sex with people of the sex but you dont all the suden one day go "im gonna be gay" It's genetic some people get it some people dont  and as Tank said there were gay people 100 years ago, its been shunned upon in certain cultres of the past but when Christianity came along it became "wrong". Becasue of the bible and other religious writings that say its an abomination if god didnt want homosexuals then he wouldnt have created them and not only that he probably wouldnt have created love. I mean hell even in japan hundreds of years ago there were homosexuals and they were tolerent of them and they werent frowned upon in acient china there was homsexuality hell ive seen art that shows it through out the ages. Don't be so closed minded a gay man or woman should be able to walk down the street like a normal person without getting spit at or ridculed or anything just like a heterosexual couple all if it werent for closed minded people and people who totaly mis interpret the bible because they have no damn common sense, it would be perfectly fine. Personally i think any idiot who says being gay is wrong and that they are going to hell need to be put somewhere to learn to be tolerant and more open minded.

Oh and Tank its not fake not in the least bit if you think gay people being proud of who they are is fake then thats like saying southerners being proud of who they are is wrong, and black people, and mexicans, or anyone for that matter if your going to start a topic like this why dont you start it with something that actually has a good god damned point for someone to be like "yeah i agree" and be able to make a good arguement you too Nick. Its because of intolerance hatered and religion that theres any kind of violence we all have to many different values and beliefs and all that shit and were all to up are own asses to realize were only human and that with all this were just slowing down our advances as a race. Thats the end of my rant Get back to me whenever

 

 

 

 

 

(and please excuse the scatered way this is written)

[Droid803]

Let me first state my position.

As a strict atheist, I detest religous beliefs in a whole and how it has infiltrated the inner depths of "society". But, this is one place where Christianity is right.

 

Homosexuality is wrong. Whether god intended anything is not part of the discussion.

 

But, functionally, homosexuals do not tend to pass on their genes to the next generation. Therefore, in nature, they would be failures. This ties into the very purpose of our existence.

What is the purpose of human existence? Is there a reason we're here? Is there a reason I bother to keep myself alive? You take a look at a simplified version - basically any other organism in nature, and their sole function is to continue to exist, and to pass on genetic information to the next generation. Everything else is merely done as a byproduct. "Society" we like to call it. Its nothing. Its something we made, so that we can live longer, and have more babies. That's the core of it. Sure, there are other things we do, like have fun. Well, that just keeps us functioning mentally or physically or both. The core of it is, we're designed to reproduce, and to better the chances of reproduction for the next generation. Following this, would a relationship that will always fail to raise offspring be considered successful? I think not. Would there be any purpose? No. They can contribute to "society", bettering the lives of the next generation...that belong to otehr people. But unless they are doing that purely out of good will, they are helping to create something they definitely will not be a part of in any remote way.

 

You're saying we accept these aberrations of nature? They are a fact of life, yes, they do not have a choice. But do I have a choice in being born into this world of idiocy which I silently wish destroyed with every particle of my being? No.

 

An object's existence should not justify its purpose. Just like there are failed games, cars, the works, there too are failed life forms. There are those who do not and did not deserve to exist, as they serve no purpose in the greater picture - they only cause harm or a negligible difference, yet use up resources that could be diverted to something of more use. Someone who will benefit society in a greater way.

 

Alas, there is no one judge who is worthy of existence. It is a great pity. So we must let them be. I do not like it, just like I do not like how I must contribute to society, to  give to something I seek to destroy. But it is a fact of existence. SO therefore I will abide by it. Until I get my chance, to rid the world of these imperfections.

 

Call me insane. It only proves my point.

[HailKingLerxst]

how is homsexuality wrong, and do you mid simplifying everything else in way i may comprhend please?

[Controller]

if i got it right he said that the sole point of living is three things

1)surviving

2)creating offspiring

3)insuring survival of offspring

 

as for the bottom half, if i read it correctly(how to say this without enacting godwins law???) its a bit to close to what Hitler and the Nazis thought, through maybe not to that extreme. in that if you cant continue the human race then your just wasting resources.

 

of course i could have misunderstood what you said, feel free to correct me

 

btw. its suspected that the gay gene(need to think of better name) is pased on because it creates a larger sexual drive in females

[Droid803]

Yea that's basically what I said, minus all the big words and fluff that make it seem like I'm some half-deranged moron 

 

And oh...then maybe its a mistake, or a negative side effect then...

Gives a new perspective one it...

[Relentless]

Homosexuality is genetic and it's not just a human thing, animals have it too. Just one more of natures ways to control our breeding. As sickening as it is, we have no choice but to accept homosexuals in general, because it is natural.

 

However, these days many people do get gay for other than genetic reasons. Accepting the concept of homosexuality not being a persons choice has resulted in people getting gay by choice, since it's now acceptable. But that's inevitable if you think about it, 'cause we can't go around burning everyone who is different by choice or genetic reasons.

[HailKingLerxst]

ok see all of your points, and like relentless saidwe just have to accept it because its natural and if we went around burning everyone for making different choices or gentic reasons wed be like the KKK, Nazis, and what ever the hell else there is i dont know about

[Ghostly_Substance]

I see life wants to bite each other in the (censored) with something, no matter what it is theres always a spear heading your way no matter what your doing, even when your relaxing watching the nice sunset on the beach or whatever. Someone decided not to read posts or not respond to it fully. What your making me and droid sound like a prick.

 

From my side of reality I see gay people as someone who chose to be gay since its not genetic. Genetic is a male loving a female and vice versa. A choice is a someone liking the same sex. Genetic is survival to the next generation until something brings the species down. The survival of the fittest. A choice is to alter it or to attempt to change your own species way. If its genetic then theres something wrong. However it could be a lesson in life for you to learn your way to the proper path since theres kids  trying to have sex at a way early age. Wonder what brings that up *ponders*. Our society then trying to prevent them to have sex till the proper age of 18 or 20 or something in between. With gays its seems someone gets desperate for some action that they try to find someone else thats desperate and go for it.

 

Love can be a powerful thing I seen that it even changes the way a person thinks. Hmm, is that why I seen people yell so hard during a parade on tv? All proud and colorful to be together with someone over-doing their freedom of expression? I mean its been accepted since ancient times but once it gets out of hand they need to get their asses handed to them for making people deaf. There has to be control even for everything or else things will decay within and cease to have a point in life. You can love the guy or girl your with as long as you don't make a big fuss about it and as long as you can produce a better life for the next generation. If your just going to be busy yelling at one another on what to accept society won't get anywhere fast.

 

Sadly the other half of society would just be too stupid to think for themselves so they asked what they can watch, what to accept in life, what to drive, what to read, where to eat and stuff like that. Yes the same society your in telling you what to buy and telling you what to do and where to go. Just simple minded idiots who've I grown tired of. You got free will do what you want with it don't let someone make choices for you. If your going to like the same sex at least do it right and don't make a big fuss about it tainting it even further.

 

--------------------------------------

Off topic opinions:

 

As for the Nazi's killing the "horrible" part of society they just wanted their world to be pure of any defects. The best way to go about it but then you become linear at some point. Do not misread please and say that killing gays and jews is right but the best way to look at it. If you strive for the best you will gain it but if you just become lazy you'll gain the worst. They tried too hard and pushed their luck, they could have gained if they did things properly. They got lazy and killed any handicap and any "unpure" people they saw. You could say I'm wrong but thats what I came to see from the Nazi Germany. They strived for quality then quantity which is easily seen in their BMW's for the obvious factor.

 

As for the KKK they didn't accept their other races so they killed any black people and any white person who liked black people. Fear of change in society and fear of another race. It happens in every nation in some form like Americans to the French, the British to the French, the Europeans to the Americans, The Middle-East to the bullies of the world (being the next white super power), The Chinese to the Japanese.

 

Oh and Religion is just a belief we fight over as drone minded people. Look at how many religions there are, enough to start a war and its a web to catch stupid people. Its to make us fight but some of the things it says in there is true but degraded from the past. Religion is used as a tool to fight since Christianity is used to fight Muslims to distract us from our real goals. We could have been in space but we're fighting in Iraq and Iran now thanks to it.

[Dr. Nick]

All idiots like you should be put in a tolerance camp, and this part is to Nick and Ghostly just because someone is gay dosent mean they should be treated differently its not like its a choice there are choices in it though. You choose to ackowledge that you like the same sex you choose to have sex with people of the sex but you dont all the suden one day go "im gonna be gay" It's genetic some people get it some people dont  and as Tank said there were gay people 100 years ago, its been shunned upon in certain cultres of the past but when Christianity came along it became "wrong". Becasue of the bible and other religious writings that say its an abomination if god didnt want homosexuals then he wouldnt have created them and not only that he probably wouldnt have created love. I mean hell even in japan hundreds of years ago there were homosexuals and they were tolerent of them and they werent frowned upon in acient china there was homsexuality hell ive seen art that shows it through out the ages. Don't be so closed minded a gay man or woman should be able to walk down the street like a normal person without getting spit at or ridculed or anything just like a heterosexual couple all if it werent for closed minded people and people who totaly mis interpret the bible because they have no damn common sense, it would be perfectly fine. Personally i think any idiot who says being gay is wrong and that they are going to hell need to be put somewhere to learn to be tolerant and more open minded.

Oh and Tank its not fake not in the least bit if you think gay people being proud of who they are is fake then thats like saying southerners being proud of who they are is wrong, and black people, and mexicans, or anyone for that matter if your going to start a topic like this why dont you start it with something that actually has a good god damned point for someone to be like "yeah i agree" and be able to make a good arguement you too Nick. Its because of intolerance hatered and religion that theres any kind of violence we all have to many different values and beliefs and all that (censored) and were all to up are own asses to realize were only human and that with all this were just slowing down our advances as a race. Thats the end of my rant Get back to me whenever

 

Goddamn...IT WAS A JOKE.

You know....J-O-K-E

Ever hear of one before?

[Logan Felipe]

From my side of reality I see gay people as someone who chose to be gay since its not genetic. Genetic is a male loving a female and vice versa. A choice is a someone liking the same sex. Genetic is survival to the next generation until something brings the species down.

 

"You may be entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts."

 

Love can be a powerful thing I seen that it even changes the way a person thinks. Hmm, is that why I seen people yell so hard during a parade on tv? All proud and colorful to be together with someone over-doing their freedom of expression? I mean its been accepted since ancient times but once it gets out of hand they need to get their asses handed to them for making people deaf. There has to be control even for everything or else things will decay within and cease to have a point in life. You can love the guy or girl your with as long as you don't make a big fuss about it and as long as you can produce a better life for the next generation. If your just going to be busy yelling at one another on what to accept society won't get anywhere fast.

 

Martin Luther King Jr. posthumously begs to differ.

 

There is scientific evidence proving that Homosexuality is biological and not a choice. In one example, studies have shown that the brain of a homosexual male human has a higher number of cells in their Corpus collosum than Heterosexual human males. Given the fact that this difference is not present in female humans however, this is more likely specific to homosexual males.

 

There was an article in a National Geographic from the 1970s about how marine biologists found the first recorded case of homosexual activity in octopi. The octopi were also of different species. Thus, it occurs in all animals.

 

Oh, and BTW; did you choose to like girls and dislike boys one day? Or were you always attracted to the opposite sex?

[Ghostly_Substance]

Martin Luther King Jr. posthumously begs to differ.

 

There is scientific evidence proving that Homosexuality is biological and not a choice. In one example, studies have shown that the brain of a homosexual male human has a higher number of cells in their Corpus collosum than Heterosexual human males. Given the fact that this difference is not present in female humans however, this is more likely specific to homosexual males.

 

There was an article in a National Geographic from the 1970s about how marine biologists found the first recorded case of homosexual activity in octopi. The octopi were also of different species. Thus, it occurs in all animals.

 

Oh, and BTW; did you choose to like girls and dislike boys one day? Or were you always attracted to the opposite sex?

 

1) Martin Luther King has his own opinions that we can't argue with.

2) I said my reality not my fact meaning my opinion/viewpoint on things.

3) Hmm, but you still see guys liking each other and girls liking each other regardless. Its also a choice if you want to move in with someone or not. Its another choice if you want to suppress the same sex love and go for opposite sex. Maybe Sea horses evolved successfully there?

4) Yes its also in the animal kingdom. All you have to do is look at dogs humping one another's legs if they're domesticated having a lower birth rate then wild animals since owners get more uh....protective.

5) Actually your brain, actually hormones and cells choses for you. Kids experiment and we actually do it when we're "ready". And of course your going to go for the opposite sex so you can continue your human line unless you chose to be gay and adopt kids since you can't reproduce unless theres males and females in the equation.

Edited October 10, 2007 by Ghostly_Substance

[HailKingLerxst]

Goddamn...IT WAS A JOKE.

You know....J-O-K-E

Ever hear of one before?

 

Well i have alto of gay friends so i don't take kindly to that kind of joke if your going post in this topic be sirious then if your just going to joke don't bother posting and showing your ignorance even if you were trying to be funny, and Ghostly i have a question what if you had a family member that was gay or a friend that was gay what you do? would you cut them out of your life or would you accept them and to say its all completely a choice is utter ignorance i mean yeah there are choices in it but you cant help how you feel i mean hell your right you can choose to embrace it or suppress it but theres no sense in supressing it and the whole point of living isn't JUST to reproduce. I mean there are people who don't have kids and they make a mark on society by helping others or giving hope to others and honestly i think your coming into the whole homosexuality subject with a personal bias towards them and if your already looking at it from one side of the whole subject then your closing yourself off from the other point of view of how there are people who think its right and thats its natural and that it should me enbraced and how gays feel about it and how hard it must be. So Ghostly before you reply if you do think about it from both sides of the topic

 

(another little note [my sentence drag on somtimes becasue i get into what im saying so please excuse my lack of punctuation.])

Edited October 10, 2007 by HailKingLerxst

[Droid803]

The primary goals of all living beings

 

1)surviving

2)creating offspiring

3)insuring survival of offspring (your own or otherwise)

 

Really, as long as you get two of the three, you have some purpose. One, no, those with only one of those can just go rot, either literally (ie. they didn't survive), or they should (they're just surviving and not doing (censored)).

 

I said that I don't mind if the Gays just keep to themselves and contribute to society, but no, they have to make society accept them as normal. To force a way of thinking upon others. Its no different than me trying to persecute them. As in any conflict, in the end, whoever wins gets to say how it will be remembered.

I personally feel uncomfortable about it, and I have every fuking right to, and never change my mind. So, it being Natural isn't the matter, its a fact that there are homosexuals. Its what we're going to do about it. We could sit and do squat like a load of you want and assimilate natural failures into our mix, or we could do something about it.

 

Take this model as an example:

In a world with only homosexuals, life is pretty much doomed.

In a world with only heterosexuals, its isn't quite as hosed to begin with.

 

Whether it be God or Evolution, Male + Female works to an extent that any other combination doesn't.

I don't really see anything wrong about being treated as for who you are. If someone contributes enough to society, noone will care who they are.

 

I've really had enough of this so,

Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.

[HailKingLerxst]

The primary goals of all living beings

 

1)surviving

2)creating offspiring

3)insuring survival of offspring (your own or otherwise)

 

Really, as long as you get two of the three, you have some purpose. One, no, those with only one of those can just go rot, either literally (ie. they didn't survive), or they should (they're just surviving and not doing (censored)).

 

I said that I don't mind if the Gays just keep to themselves and contribute to society, but no, they have to make society accept them as normal. To force a way of thinking upon others. Its no different than me trying to persecute them. As in any conflict, in the end, whoever wins gets to say how it will be remembered.

I personally feel uncomfortable about it, and I have every fuking right to, and never change my mind. So, it being Natural isn't the matter, its a fact that there are homosexuals. Its what we're going to do about it. We could sit and do squat like a load of you want and assimilate natural failures into our mix, or we could do something about it.

 

Take this model as an example:

In a world with only homosexuals, life is pretty much doomed.

In a world with only heterosexuals, its isn't quite as hosed to begin with.

 

Whether it be God or Evolution, Male + Female works to an extent that any other combination doesn't.

I don't really see anything wrong about being treated as for who you are. If someone contributes enough to society, noone will care who they are.

 

I've really had enough of this so,

Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.

 

those may be your primary goals of living but it doesn't mean its everyone elses and why the hell should gays keep to themselves? how would you like it if you were told to keep to yourself look and no one is normal you know what normality is? normality is conforming to the standard or something common no one is "normal" were all different and just because  you don't have kids doesn't mean your a failure and i know you not saying that but you might as well be and you keep listing "The primary goals of living" thats a not a primary goal. A primary goal would be make your mark on the world how ever little it may be and contribute to the bettering of a species so if your going to have a list of primary life goals why don't you come up with something other than having kids because that isn't the only goal, and if it is give me your proof and explain your logic to me. also not everyone likes the same sex so dont use that as  an example of doom because there is no chance of every single human being on earth liking the same sex

[Dr. Nick]

With the animals, it's probably a mutation in the genes.

With people, it's just a way of thinking. I mean, if gay people can't pass on their genes, then how else would it spread?

 

Indoctrination.

Homosexuality is even being portrayed as a good/acceptable thing by some schools. Even as early as elementary school, little kids are being shown books like Why Mommy is a Democrat and stories with gay characters.

 

It's simple. If we don't let this way of thinking be passed on to other people, then it will be stamped out for good.

 

If you wanna say that it's natural in humans too, then are you saying that gays are a bunch of mutated freaks with abnormal genes which cause this reaction in them? I believe that a theorist wrote up an entire article on this, only to get bashed by pro gay rights people for calling their way of thinking a mutation.  : ;D

 

I feel like laughing and rolling my eyes at the same time 

[MSEagle2]

Homosexuality is even being portrayed as a good/acceptable thing by some schools. Even as early as elementary school, little kids are being shown books like Why Mommy is a Democrat and stories with gay characters.

 

ever so true, most people at my school are democrate, 90% say that because there parents are democrats, and they could care less what the word even means... its all in the mind...like when some one feels sick, and then people think its contagious and get sick even though there is nothing wrong with them....mind over matter.  How ever it could be genetics if you have a guy or girl who had irregular levels of men and women hormones which would make them slightly attracted to the same sex.

 

sorry for the mis-spelling, if any.

[Droid803]

I don't need to be normal, and I know for sure I am abnormal in my own twisted way, so yeah, I don't particularly mind.

 

And oh, no, those are not my personal primary goals of living...those are the underlying goals of basically all living things.

[Logan Felipe]

With the animals, it's probably a mutation in the genes.

With people, it's just a way of thinking. I mean, if gay people can't pass on their genes, then how else would it spread?

 

Indoctrination.

Homosexuality is even being portrayed as a good/acceptable thing by some schools. Even as early as elementary school, little kids are being shown books like Why Mommy is a Democrat and stories with gay characters.

 

It's simple. If we don't let this way of thinking be passed on to other people, then it will be stamped out for good.

 

If you wanna say that it's natural in humans too, then are you saying that gays are a bunch of mutated freaks with abnormal genes which cause this reaction in them? I believe that a theorist wrote up an entire article on this, only to get bashed by pro gay rights people for calling their way of thinking a mutation.  : ;D

 

I feel like laughing and rolling my eyes at the same time 

Its not a way of thinking.

 

Part of the reason its as prominent as it is is because of anti gay indoctrination.

1. Gay man is told he is a sinner or a "freak" for being gay.

2. Gay man marries a woman and has kids to prove he "isn't bad". lives a lie the rest of his life.

3. his kids carry the gene.

 

Its also possible that it is not something that is strictly amongst family lines. for example, it may be a recessive gene that occurs every once in a while that is influenced by genetics.

 

I still can't help but see parallels to Nazi arguements in some of the comments I'm seeing.

[Ghostly_Substance]

If someone here is flame baiting its getting pretty sad that even a discussion can't even be held properly. I'm saying mine as opinions and seems like I always have to correct your replies to my comments.

 

If its genes or by choice it still can be suppressed. There are people forced to suppress it or else they would be picked on by the whole of society unless in their "own territory". Also how many times should I keep saying that I allow gays and lesbians to roam around as long as they DO NOT make a big fuss about it. I also did say it is already accepted but if its taken to a new level of course your going to get picked on by the Nazi's, the Russians, the Canadians, the Asians and the Europeans. If you keep to yourself and don't poke people about it and don't spread the "aura" around your "normal".

 

So what will I do with a gay parent? Well depends on how I was raised really but as of now if it was a big thing and a sudden switch in mindset I'd just relocate. If its genes or mindset (how you were raised as a kid and seen sexuality) then you would adapt to that scenario in life. I didn't say I hate gays since if I did I would of killed 10 that walked by me in life or sat next to me in the bus.

 

Also about the animals being gay, they do have sexual needs also like us humans. Some go for same sex some go after opposite sex.

 

Also me reading before I reply thats what I always do..........

[HailKingLerxst]

If someone here is flame baiting its getting pretty sad that even a discussion can't even be held properly. I'm saying mine as opinions and seems like I always have to correct your replies to my comments.

 

If its genes or by choice it still can be suppressed. There are people forced to suppress it or else they would be picked on by the whole of society unless in their "own territory". Also how many times should I keep saying that I allow gays and lesbians to roam around as long as they DO NOT make a big fuss about it. I also did say it is already accepted but if its taken to a new level of course your going to get picked on by the Nazi's, the Russians, the Canadians, the Asians and the Europeans. If you keep to yourself and don't poke people about it and don't spread the "aura" around your "normal".

 

So what will I do with a gay parent? Well depends on how I was raised really but as of now if it was a big thing and a sudden switch in mindset I'd just relocate. If its genes or mindset (how you were raised as a kid and seen sexuality) then you would adapt to that scenario in life. I didn't say I hate gays since if I did I would of killed 10 that walked by me in life or sat next to me in the bus.

 

Also about the animals being gay, they do have sexual needs also like us humans. Some go for same sex some go after opposite sex.

 

Also me reading before I reply thats what I always do..........

 

 

well everything ive just read is good enough for me to shut up now =D