An Outrage!

[Guest Scathane]

I don't see why they shouldn't listen in on ElvisMiggell or any other countryman for that matter...

 

I don't know if you meant this how you worded it, but I think you mean "I don't see why they should listen in on ElvisMiggell or any other countryman for that matter"

I meant it the way I said it, although wouldn't would probably have been more accurate. They have the power to do it, so why do you think they would refrain from it?

 

Maybe my English is terrible, but I thought you thought by that, that there is a reason to listen in on ElvisMiggell hehe

of course there is! The man's ideas are sheer evil!

 

More seriously, @Jin_Roh: I never said that Bush was pesonnaly responsible for either the Kyoto or ABM treaty changes. I merely asserted that policies have changed since Bush and that this is, indeed, at least partially his responsibility...

 

Moreover, I am not at all against American policy, beit foreign or domestic. Admittedly, I do think that some US policies just might be off-track nowadays but then again, I feel that a lot of non-US people condening the US for them are often terribly short-sighted.

[Lord_La_forge]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

Another work from Moore: Bowling For Columbine: I know, it's not very objective and some of the statistics are false in it (that's been proven). It's more like a shocker, then an objective documentary...but there are a lot of things mentioned in it that I would think about if I would live in America. For example it clears some "tiny" details about the Gulf War and Osama bin Laden.

I think most people in Hungary laughed on some facts. Keeping guns at home? OH MY GOD (recited from Spearhead), WHY?

I hope I will not lose any friends here if I say: I don't like Bush. I don't like his politics, his methods, the way he speaks to his nation. I think he is not a learned man in many ways. (I even could imagine, there are people in the back controlling him in some of his actings, decisions.)

 

And the IDIOTIC senators, who renamed french fries to freedom fries... that makes me still angry. That's stupid, and idiotic. But I'm sure, most of the americans felt the same way. People in France mainly laughed about that.

 

Now, as you noticed I'm not against any nations, I'm against some politics. There were no atomic or toxic weapons in Iraq! That was one of the main reasons, why Bush attacked the country. War against terrorism? Hmmm.. Most of the european countries were against a war ( Hungary supported the U.S.A.) I can't decide, that it was really necesarry or not. I think it was. It's bether this way for all other democratic countries. But let us not forget, that the US government is responsible for all that. They set the Middle East in fire in the past, and now they trying to repair that.

I'm even not sure about sept.11. This tragedy could have been avoided if the CIA and others had got the proper informations about a possible strike on WTC. I'm not sure, that the US goverment (or at least some of them) didn't know anything about this plan. (anyone still remembers the story of the battleship called Maine, 1898? Cassus-belli? )

Just some subjective (or not so subjective) thoughts. But I'm a bit confused about the US goverments foreign politics.

 

"But I do assert that if America ceased to exist, you would be next in the line of fire, through no fault of ours or yours. "

 

I just can't imagine that. Sorry. But I do think that, those fundamental countries, who belive in some kind of dsihad are truly dangerous. As a man who believes in Buddhas words, I say that dying for a religion is simply dumb

 

"And I assert that if America succeeds in helping the Iraqi people build a free and prosperous Iraq, it is not only the US which will benefit or American lives which will be saved."

 

Free and prosperous? Nobody has the thought, that the new government of Iraq is, well... not really in charge with anything there? Let us help the people there! They their own culture, own methods, own problems!

 

The primary failure was, that the UN decided in 1947 to "create a country" called Izrael and divide it peremptorily with a border from Palestina. In 1948 the arabs and the jews were already at war with each other. While America helped the jews, the soviets helped the arabs... and just think about Vietnam...

Manipulating whole countries is very dangerous. It can have consequences like sept.11.] And everyone is crying, not understanding what is going on. Oh yes, all countries that had colonies manipulated other goverments and then had to face the consequences. But those countries learned something of it. But my fear is, that this insanity, of making colonies and manipulating, controlling, dividing,forcing countries is not yet over in some goverments. And somebody just ensure me please, that the BUSH goverment is "CLEAN" in all that ways. Please!

 

This chaotic script above was only my (not full) oppinion...

sory aboout any gramar erorrs. I'm learning english some years only

[Evaders99]

No government is ever clean. That's politics for ya. But don't believe that somehow because he has flaws, he is somehow evil.

 

Of course, the CIA was limited by President Clinton himself. He pretty well crippled the CIA's ability to act against terrorism, even after the WTC bombing.

 

The US is to blame for everything in the Middle East? Hardly.

 

Most European countries were against the war? I think not.

 

I'm sorry.. there is a war against the western world. It's a fact. They are attacking America because we are specifically the symbol for economic, political, and religious freedom. We aren't perfect.. but we have a much better standard of living than these terrorists. And they seek to blame us for every problem, every wrong, every trial that they need to go through. Much like our own American revolution, sometimes it is the strength of the people that is needed to remove corrupt, brutal governments and fight for freedom. You cannot say that humans don't want freedom... and that's exactly what these dictator regimes and their terrorist allies want to destroy.

 

Read this: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/10/14/saudi_schools_teach_hatred_of_the_west/

 

The problem is that the UN has no power. It has no backbone to enforce it's own rules... specifically since many member countries are led by dictators anyway. Iran leading the human rights committee? It's just stupid to believe that the UN should be THE enforcer when they have no power to do anything.

 

After WW2, the UN specifically allowed for the creation of an Arab state and a Jewish state. Who accepted and who didn't? The Arabs wanted all of it... to "drive the infidels into the sea", if you will. The Jews created the state of Israel, which was immediatly attacked by the countries around them. While I cannot blame any side for starting the conflict, I support Isreal's right to defend themselves... as I support any other republic in the defense of their sovereignty.

 

Iraq is not in charge? Then why is there a government forming? Why is there more electricity available in Iraq than there was before the war? Why are children going back to school? Why are women free to go out on the streets? Why isn't Iraq in a state of absolute chaos.. with warlords fighting to take whatever lands they can?

 

Certainly "manipulating" countries is not good. But if you believe that the US only wants to make Iraq a colony, we could have done that 12 years ago.

 

(Ok, I'm done. Feel free to agree to disagree, since most likely no one's mind will be changed. I'm open for debate in private.)

[ElvisMiggell]

I think following on from Evaders lead i'm now going to lock this topic. I'll leave it only locked, and not deleted, cos it makes for interesting reading. If anyone particularly wants to add something to that then pm either myself or Scath or Evaders and we'll unlock it for you to write in.

[Guest Scathane]

Well, since I do have something to add, I sent a PM to Scathane and he unlocked the topic for me. Anyway, there's something I want to get off my chest...

 

There are a lot of people in this world (in the US as well) who believe that the US didn't have any business in either Afghanistan or Iraq and still don't. There are people who believe that violence and war are never the answer to any problem. Of course, I respect that. Admittedly, it is not my point of view but I respect and understand it. There is, however, something I don't understand about most of these people (I do understand that I'm generalising here) and that is that they do not see that the former policies and ideas held by the Taliban (who ruled Afghanistan) and the Saddam dictatorship (that ruled Iraq) are directed not solely against America but against all free nations of this world.

 

Now I'm not asking anybody to agree on capitalism here but I think it's only fair to say that the aggression and terrorism we have seen in the recent past were acts against freedom and democracy. If you do not agree to this, then just consider that 9/11 events did actually display an attack on the prime financial and business center in the Western world, as well as an attack on the prime military headquarters of that same free world. As such, I have to agree with Jin_Roh that if the US weren't there, other countries would be next in line.

 

Having said that, I leave it to Elvis to lock this topic...

[Lord_La_forge]

I didn't write Bush is evil.

 

Well, I did not say, that the arabs not wanted that event. And I can't blame any side either. But how on Earth can the UN make influence on creating new states in the Middle East (especially USA, England didn't support that)?

 

A very interesting link, Evaders. It enlights many things. Saudi education is a good example for manipulation too. They are manipulating their own people! I also think, thats a huge problem for us with consequnces.

 

Dictaroty and democraty has his own flaws. Only difference is that in dictatory you can see problems more drasticly. The democracys flaws are more hidden for us. But it's certain that democraty is far more bether tan any imperialistic regim!

 

"I'm sorry.. there is a war against the western world. It's a fact. They are attacking America because we are specifically the symbol for economic, political, and religious freedom. "

 

Economical and political freedom? Are sure about that? What do you mean with economical freedom? One of the western worlds democratical flaw is, economical. Anything is about hte money!! People, who get rich, can buy power, can gain political influence, You must agree with that. Organistations, like the italian mafia. Remember why they left Italy, and gone to America? Because of that economical freedom. They can excist perfectly there. And not only in America, in all western countries.

The democratical worlds economy is simply overgrown. It's not controllable. Nobody really knows how it works! Thats why there was an economical disaster in the 30's. It was crisis. It's like a ticking time-bomb.

I'm not against any freedom, you mentioned, but I doubt that these ever really existed. Because these freedoms are abused by corrupt and rich leaders, multinational conserns and companies, that are simply grown too large now and DO HAVE influence in politics, and more than that, even in cultures. Oh, I guess I could write all day long...

 

I hope, you're right about the state of Iraq. Perhaps it will be truly free. And I mean free from any economical interest of other western countries. Warlords? That would be silly.. We are not in medieval times. But there is possibly a "war" going on for capital in that land. Privatisation is a well known word for us hungarians too.

 

Yes, the US could have colonized that land 12 years ago. But I don't mean military and political occupation on that. That's impossible, no one could accept a colonisation like before the WWI in the 21th century. There are other ways and methods too. Economical methods, interest mainly.

 

Is this topic closed now? Sorry then, but I just wanted to answer few things...

[ElvisMiggell]

Okay, i think it's closed now, though of course you can always ask us to reopen it if you have a burning desire to post in it.

[SOCL]

This topic seemed to get us to one point, enlightenment. We all now have a greater understanding of each other and each other's opinions, whether we agree to them or not. One way of another, one general conclusion to all of this can be made and that is that no matter how we look at it, freedom has been attacked and freedom must be defended. We all have our opinions on how this must be done and who must lead it...and how it mustn't be done and who should not/mustn't lead it. One way or another, it's terrible to see war once again in our world...a war that seems to have no clear end. We can all agree that freedom must be defended for the common good of mankind, no matter if it's through war or not, for we all have our own individual opinions and that, my friends, is what makes us free.

[Evaders99]

I thank everyone for the debate.

 

But now I think it's time we attract less attention to this thread, and go back to the wonderful world of Star Wars.

 

Topic closed.