Is Palpatine Anakin's father?

[Bill]

Is Palpatine Anakin's father?

[DarthTex]

AdmiralToguroAni wrote:

 

Episode 1: Palpy looks around 70 years old

 

I think you maybe aging Palpy a bit much there. Even though Ian was an older actor playing a younger man (ironic that in ESB remix & RotJ he was the younger actor playing the older man ), I would've put his age to be in the mid to late 50's, early 60's max. That's only a 10-15 year difference, but for the later episodes it could make quite the difference.

[AdmiralToguroAni]

Okay, I can sorta-kinda see Ep.1 Obi being in his late twenties. Maybe. I'll go with it. But theres no way Palpy was in his 50s or even early 60s in Episode 1. Sidious used the force to make himself look younger (and also less evil), and Palpy couldnt have been less than 65, and thats pushing it. But for the sake of argument, I'll say that the Emperor is 55 years old.

 

10 years from TPM to AotC is 65, then 68 in ROTS, then 88 in ANH, then around 93 in ROTJ. Thats still 93 years old! If we consider whether aging has an effect or not, you just need to look at the movies (we cant take when the movies were produced into account if we were to consider these guys as having real abilities) . Obi-Wan and the Emperor were slinging lightsabres around, cutting down Jedi Masters, General Grievouses, whining Sith Lords, Samuel L. Jacksons, etc in the prequels. By ANH, Obi has slown down considerably, having to use both hands to fight with his sabre and slashing and blocking much slower. I should also note that he wasn't using Force push, jump, etc. In terms of contiunity, as he got older, he got weaker.

 

Now look at Palpy. No lightsabre action at all. Thats because he's at least 93 years old! By that time, Palpy still seems to be able to do one thing at a time really well (manage a fleet, see the future, fight, watch TV, etc), but he has trouble multitasking as he didn't see himself getting shafted while he was busy either going all Pikachu on Luke or planning this big trap of luring the Rebel Fleet in.

[Skynxnex]

Well, you have to remember that Vader had been a loyal servant for a good number of years. Plus the Emperor underestimated his apprentice. As we saw in RoTS Palpatine likes to lie to him. When Vader was watching his son die that was what brought him back from the darkside and he redeemed himself.

 

Anyway as for some of the other points. Granted in the originals they didnt have the special effects capabilities that we do today but using the movies as a sign of saying that Jedi get weaker with age is a little silly. Yoda for example is ridiculously old yet he has a lot of speed still. Vader in the Originals, at least the way I looked at it, he was simply so powerful he didnt NEED to flip around be super fast. Its been supported in the novels for instance like in AOTC that as a padawan Anakin was using the Force to slow down Dooku etc and Dooku was surprised that a mere padawan was able to display such skill with use of the Force. Look at ESB, during the fight with Luke we see Vader ripping out of walls various devices and flinging them at Luke. Since when in the prequels do we see someone simultaneously attacking with a lightsaber AND flinging things. We dont, not even the Emperor in RoTS was flinging things at the same time he was using his lightsaber.

 

This almost opens up the debate of "could Luke beat Vader" etc. Well one thing you have to remember is that Vader NEVER wanted to kill his son. Its been stated throughout the novels and indeed we see it in the movies where he simply wants to turn Luke. Luke is his last connection to his wife. He isnt interested in his only (at least from what he knew before reading his son's mind) that Luke was his last living relation here in the galaxy.

 

One thing I hate about midichlorians is that it makes it seem like the more you have the more powerful you are in the Force. I liked it better when the originals described it as a simple mysterious energy field created by life and a Jedi learns how to tap into this etc.

[AdmiralToguroAni]

Yoda may have been able to flip around, but that may also have something to do with his species longevity. You can't even begin to compare ROTS Palpy with ROTJ Palpy. Likewise, Old Obi is far weaker than AoTC or ROTS Obi. Just watch their fights and you can see (incidentally, Dooku must have OWNED when he was younger). As for Vader, He does get a lot stronger in the force, but lets also remember that a Padawan who is untrained in the ways of the lightsaber got a good whack at Vader's shoulder in ESB. If not for that armor, Vader would have lost his arm....again. Its quite possible that Anakin and the Clones killed all the really powerful Jedi (sans Yoda and Obi) and Vader, who seems to be quite a bit slower, was able to take care of the stragglers.

[DarthTofu]

Anyone ever noticed that in that scene of ESB right after Luke gets the shoulder shot in, Darth Vader says "Hooooooooooolllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyy ****". Seriously, watch it, he swears like middle schooler when Luke slashes his armor.

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I dont remember him saying THAT, but I do remember him "arrrrghh"ing when he gets whacked. Vader was such a weakling after he got the armor put on. Look at those awful overhead chops he loved to do in the movie. Perhaps he gave up his sabre practice in favor of learning how to control objects in battle? Either that or those burns all over his body make it hard for him to move his shoulders and knees.

[DarthTex]

AdmiralToguroAni wrote:

 

10 years from TPM to AotC is 65, then 68 in ROTS, then 88 in ANH, then around 93 in ROTJ. Thats still 93 years old! If we consider whether aging has an effect or not, you just need to look at the movies (we cant take when the movies were produced into account if we were to consider these guys as having real abilities) . Obi-Wan and the Emperor were slinging lightsabres around, cutting down Jedi Masters, General Grievouses, whining Sith Lords, Samuel L. Jacksons, etc in the prequels. By ANH, Obi has slown down considerably, having to use both hands to fight with his sabre and slashing and blocking much slower. I should also note that he wasn't using Force push, jump, etc. In terms of contiunity, as he got older, he got weaker.

 

I disagree on the point of "when" the movies were produced. If not for the cinemagraphic technology advances, the prequels would be pure junk. Also, movies have "adapted" to what is now considered "cool/wow" styles. Had the Matrix not had all of those amazing fight scenes, then there probably wouldn't have been the "great" action scenes of movies that followed (Spiderman, the SW prequels, etc.). "Old Obi" (as you reference him) was acted per what previous films existed to draw from (as well as what a movie budget will allow). Had the prequels been made first and followed up with a second trilogy (ANH, ESB & RotJ), the second trilogy would be SO different. If they can get Dooku to do great action scenes (for an old man), then what do you suppose they could do for Alec Guiness? Easily just as well.

 

 

AdmiralToguroAni wrote:

 

Yoda may have been able to flip around, but that may also have something to do with his species longevity.

 

In ESB Yoda tells Luke he's 900 years old (I'm sure he "rounded" his age). If there are approximately ~30 years between RotS and ESB, certainly that wouldn't account for such a great difference in Yoda's abilities. 30 years is a "drop in the bucket" if you are around 900 years old. The only main difference between RotS Yoda and ESB Yoda is really a "movie technology" difference (CGI vs. Muppet).

[AdmiralToguroAni]

The problem with that is if we are to re-imagine the OT fights as if they were done in the prequel style, then we're just using conjecture instead of facts or logical inferences. Sure the fights were made using the best technology available at the time, but they are what they are and since thats what happened, we have to take it into consideration. However, we should also consider these mitigating factors.

 

Dooku used a style similar to fencing when he fought with a lightsabre. This takes much less effort than using your sabre like a battleaxe, like Obi and Anakin liked to do. Palpy seemed to enjoy using his like a spear or battering ram, and also jumped around a lot. To that end, Dooku's style used a lot less movement and was more opportunistic than the others', allowing him to fight well despite his age. Obi, living on the harsh desert of tatooine, may have developed arthritis or something, because he moves much slower than he used to. Depending on whether you believe the EU or not, he ended up fighting against Maul again and practically lost if not for Owen.

 

As for Yoda...I'm still convinced that those swamp gases got the better of him, turning him old, weak, and into a muppet. Then again, how much do we know about Yoda? Look at him walk, then watch him fight. He may have been weak the entire Prequel Trilogy, and using the force to "power up" DBZ style. Since Yoda was the only in the movies who had that style of the force (evidenced by his use of those force shields against the lightning), perhaps that was another trick only he could do.

 

I doubt Palpy could even use a lightsabre anymore. It could be that Yoda's species ages better than humans, but Palpy even sounded tired as he was frying Luke. Dooku put up a fight but was ultimately defeated in ROTS, and perhaps his age had something to do with it. When you're that old, 3 years is a while. As long as he kept his distance he was fine, but once Anakin closed in, that was it, possibly because Dooku was physically unable to respond in time. Now apply the same concept to an old man who spent the last 20 years sitting on a throne, with the Dark Side eating away at his body, and is about 20 years older than Dooku. Is there any wonder why he was so much stronger in ROTS?

[Skynxnex]

Yoda may have been able to flip around, but that may also have something to do with his species longevity. You can't even begin to compare ROTS Palpy with ROTJ Palpy. Likewise, Old Obi is far weaker than AoTC or ROTS Obi. Just watch their fights and you can see (incidentally, Dooku must have OWNED when he was younger). As for Vader, He does get a lot stronger in the force, but lets also remember that a Padawan who is untrained in the ways of the lightsaber got a good whack at Vader's shoulder in ESB. If not for that armor, Vader would have lost his arm....again. Its quite possible that Anakin and the Clones killed all the really powerful Jedi (sans Yoda and Obi) and Vader, who seems to be quite a bit slower, was able to take care of the stragglers.

 

 

Yes that was Luke Skywalker, not a mere Padawan. Luke is, next to Vader, arguably the most powerful Jedi ever. Being the Son of the Chosen One has a lot of benefits. Tell me, if Obi and Yoda thought Vader was so weak why did they stay in hiding for so long?

[AdmiralToguroAni]

Midichlorians may count for something, heck a lot of things, but Luke was doing all he could to lift those rocks. The only formal lightsabre training he had was on the Falcon with Han. Luke may have had the POTENTIAL for greatness, but until he actually underwent more formal training (presumably between ESP and ROTJ), he wasn't very strong. I've always considered midichlorians to be a guage of how powerful you can become rather than how powerful you are. Anakin got lots of training in and so thats why he was so powerful. Luke had much less training and while his midichlorian level helped him scoot by, he didnt really achieve the power level of his father until possibly ROTJ or the EU after that. Just look at Luke vs. the training droid to see what I mean.

 

As for Yoda and Obi being in hiding when Vader's power level went through the toilet, consider this: When Obi was still in his prime and able to fight the suited Vader, the ARC troopers were still fresh and followed Vader around (even in the OT Vader usually travels with an escort). Those ARCs are powerful enough to kill Jedi masters like Ki-Adi-Mundi by themselves. Obi could probably take a squad of them, but not a squad AND Vader, even with Vader's reduced power level. By the time the Clone troopers were replaced with the weaker stormtroopers, Obi had aged to the point where fighting Vader would be suicide (and it was).

 

As for Yoda, I think there was a certain element of shame that kept him from trying again. Getting busted up by Palpy caused him a lot of emotional trouble. Rather than have a repeat performance of last battle, Yoda decided to wait it out, hoping that Obi was able to protect Luke and set him on the path of defeating his father.

Edited July 13, 2005 by AdmiralToguroAni

[Skynxnex]

I agree with Darth Tex. I think many of you are simply comparing the Prequels and the Originals without using some logic. When Lucas made those Originals HE COULDNT DO ALL OF THAT FLIPPING CRAP we see a lot of the Jedi doing. It was impossible. He didnt have the budget. Also many of you seem to think that being fast like that and flashy is a good thing. A true master, be it in Martial Arts or Sword fighting knows that one should dispatch his opponent with as minimal effort as possible. To conserve energy and so on.

 

I will not buy into the idea that Obi Wan and the others 'got weaker' as time went on. That doesnt make any sense. If we followed that logic was Dooku then so powerful despite him being old? To be perfectly blunt, its a problem Lucas created with inconsistencies and there wont be much of a way to resolve unless we use what we, 'ourselves', think of the movies. As for me, I believe they got more powerful as time went on and dropped the need for all of those flashy moves because they didnt have to use them anymore. As I said before, Anakin in AOTC was literally using the Force against Dooku to slow him down. Many people said that Vader was weaker in the Originals..I somehow fail to see how. He choked Ozzel from a very long distance away, remember he did via hologram/comm display. Vader could have been KILOMETERS away. In ESB he rips large devices off of walls and throws them at Luke. In ROTS all he did after being in the suit was smash what appeared mostly hollow stuff in. Believe me, its not hard to smash hollow stuff in. Ripping devices that were mounted into a wall as we saw in ESB is much harder. Did anyone notice that Vader fought with one hand usually? I have already explained to most of you that he WAS NOT TRYING to kill Luke. He wanted to turn Luke. If Vader had gotten so weak after being put in the suit why didnt the Emperor get a new apprentice? We know from canon sources that he has Hands and other force trained operatives. The reason is simple, even with his suit on, Vader is still the most powerful Jedi.

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I'll disagree with some of that the same way I disagreed with Tex. If we imagine the movies then that leaves it open to individual interpretations on how the fights "should have went". And while in theory you could say that Old Obi and Suited Vader were whirling around at each other all flashy like, or as skyxnex suggests were beyond that in terms of skill, it still doesn't explain Palpy, who doesnt even have a lightsabre in ROTJ. Palpy wasnt conserving energy--he was shooting lighting all over the place in ROTS, same as in ROTJ, he just also whipped out a sabre in ROTS. Humans are humans in the Star Wars universe same as they are in the real world. As you get older you get slower and weaker. The force can delay this to some degree of course, but not enough to make a man fight like he could 20 years ago.

 

As for the Dooku problem, like I said earlier, Dooku's fighting style was relatively unhindered by his age. Put him in his prime and you can imagine what a beast he would have been--easily worthy of being trained by Yoda. Also consider that he had lived his whole life out of exile and in practice, while Obi was in exile and could only self-train.

 

As for your (admittedly good) question of why Palpy didnt get a new apprentice if Vader was weakened, I have a few theories:

 

If we're to accept the EU canon of "Emperor's Hands", then we should also accept the EU concept of the Emperor's prejudice against women. The foremost hand, Mara Jade, would hardly have been suitable as Palpy's right hand woman if he wanted to get that message across. As for the other Emperor's hands (the only one I can think of is that Malafic guy from Galaxies, but I'm sure there are others), keep in mind that Vader is weak when comparing him to Obi-wan, Yoda, and Luke in their prime. These are some of the greatest Jedi of them all, probably much stronger even in their weaker state than these EU Dark Jedi guys. AsI said in a previous post, Vader may be weaker with a lightsabre because he stopped training with that and began to work more with the Force, explaining why his lightsabre prowess sucks in the OT but his power with the force seems to increase.

 

And theres the most obvious reason: Vader is scary. He's even scarier than General Grievous. When Vader walks into a room, you shut up and change your pants that you just soiled. No one could symbolize the "doctrine of fear" more than Vader, and I think that counts for a lot.

[Skynxnex]

It could be that Palpatine doesnt need a lightsaber. I mean really who can get him now? After Yoda failed to kill him in RoTS no one can touch him now. Security will be too tight and its impossible.

 

Also, I could counter and say that Palpatine has progressed beyond the need to have a lightsaber. Palpatine over the next 20 some odd yrs has undoubtedly expanded his knowledge of the Force. We already know from canon novel source (the ROTJ novel) that Palpatine could use battle meditation subconsciously to drive the Imperial military.

 

At any rate, I am inclined to not bother arguing this point anymore. As I said before, its up to our interpretation. What you see in the movie is different than what I see.

[DarthTofu]

Someone stated that humans are humans- but what about this increadibally-stupid, based-on-next-to-nothing theory? Palpatine isn't human. He really has gungan blood in him that has altered him on the inside, just not the outside! It's not a bad theory in the least bit

[AdmiralToguroAni]

Okay. Since Skyxnex doesnt want to debate anymore, we can say he has Gungan blood and call it a day! Heres the final truth....

 

Palpatine isnt Anakin's Dad...he's JAR JAR'S

[Paul]

I have told all of you this before- We all have a different Star Wars universe. We all take from the movies, novels, EU what we feel to be correct. No two fans have the same perspective on things- arguing is pointless. In my Star Wars reality Endor ended with a more realistic Imperial Victory. - Grand Moff Conway

[blueskinnedthrawn]

you know theres one book that explains why yoda and obi didnt try and kill vader and palpy in the 20 years from rots and anh. it goes like when jedi grow old and increases in the force, they stop wanting to change stuff in the universe and just want things to be. i guess they got to that point so they just waited for somebody else to come along. and i think obi was not yet there but he was protecting luke after all, wouldn't want him to grow up without a guardian if he fails.

[Skynxnex]

you know theres one book that explains why yoda and obi didnt try and kill vader and palpy in the 20 years from rots and anh. it goes like when jedi grow old and increases in the force, they stop wanting to change stuff in the universe and just want things to be. i guess they got to that point so they just waited for somebody else to come along. and i think obi was not yet there but he was protecting luke after all, wouldn't want him to grow up without a guardian if he fails.

 

 

I read that book too. It sounds very much like the Black Fleet Crisis where Luke become a wimp and didnt want to use his Force powers or something.

[DarthTex]

I don't want to sound "too" confrontational and will make this my (hopefully) final comment. AdmiralToguroAni, you have contradicted yourself.

 

AdmiralToguroAni wrote:

 

The problem with that is if we are to re-imagine the OT fights as if they were done in the prequel style, then we're just using conjecture instead of facts or logical inferences.

 

If we imagine the movies then that leaves it open to individual interpretations on how the fights "should have went".

 

interpretations like ...

 

AdmiralToguroAni wrote:

 

Obi, living on the harsh desert of tatooine, may have developed arthritis or something, because he moves much slower than he used to.

 

As for Yoda...I'm still convinced that those swamp gases got the better of him, turning him old, weak, and into a muppet.

 

I'm not trying to say Old Obi did back flips & such while fighting Vader on the Death Star. I'm not trying to "add" anything that isn't already existing on celluloid (film). What I'm trying to get at, is just because Old Obi & Old Vader didn't fight like the prequels, they weren't weaker. If your remember when the STAR WARS movie first came out (which I believe some can't do because they were not born yet. And the movie title was STAR WARS, not Episode IV ANH, because nobody knew there would ever be any more follow on movies), this was THE best kick a** movie EVER. At this point in time, there were no "prequel" materials available from GL so there could be continuity for some future follow on films. It is totally unreasonable to make assumptions between the two trilogies because you have: two different filming technologies, different storyline foundation, different styles in making films, and definitely different budgets.

 

Last couple of comments:

 

Palpy didn't use a lightsaber in RotJ, because maybe nobody thought of him having one at all at the time (of the movie). As Skynxnex stated, maybe he just didn't need to (President Eisenhower was previously in the military but didn't carry a firearm with him).

 

Dooku quit being a Jedi at the time of TPM, and under the Sifadious name ordered the clones and disappeared. He was still being "trained" by Darth Sidious/Palpy, and NOT living his whole life in exile. Obi-wan went into exile and SELF trained with "some" info from Yoda (with maybe? some additional ghostly training by Qui-jon? That is conjecture on my part, and I'm not saying it happened or not). Nobody was able to help Obi-wan with additional training, not Yoda, not any material from the Jedi temple, only what little info that Yoda had on him at the time (conjecture: they might have grabbed a few tidbits at the Jedi temple when changing the recall code).

 

Yoda/Obi-wan stayed in exile because they didn't want to be "rallying" points in the Rebellion, have lots of people get killed because they planned the strategies and then be blamed for everything that could and would go wrong. People need to believe in themselves and fight for themselves; not fight because Yoda or Obi-wan is back.

 

Hopefully that's the last I have to same on that. I don't mean to offend anyone or pick on AdmiralToguroAni, that is not my intent. This is just another trade of ideas and opinions between us. That is what the forums are for.

Edited July 14, 2005 by DarthTex

[DarthTofu]

For the record, not arguing at all, just stating something that I read to help in fact finding, apparently Qui Gon has "Discovered the path to immortality" meaning that he was the first to discover how to transend and show up to living people as a ghostly... thing that looks suspiciously like the same technology used to make holograms. Anyway, according to the book, he trained Yoda some. Though, for all I know, there could be some Jedi temple info... Though why not share it with Luke? Me ponders...

[Aenivae_Ikeda]

Because that would make too much sense Tofu, for Luke to be trained like that. And we all know that Lucas is incapable of making sense, so he did another outrageously stupid thing for the sympathizers of Qui-Gon, and to piss all over the logic structure of EVERYTHING once again... God I hate that man.

[DarthTofu]

You know, it's kind of weird. Everyone on a site devoted to something that Lucas helped create hates him. I'm kind of scared to ask what the public opinion is on Steven Spielburg...

[Aenivae_Ikeda]

-Dragons, and tentacles, and E.T.'s and Sharks, and fire breathing monks storm tofu screaming loudly at the mention of Mr. Steven...-

 

I hate that man... I hate Cruise just as much...

 

Cruise: When I became a scientologist I learned that psychology is a psuedo-science...

 

DUH???

[Stellar_Magic]

I like Spielburg, and despise Lucas. Funny that they're friends, maybe George should have let Steve direct the movies.

[Paul]

Cruise is an all right actor who has an ego trip problem. He has been in a few good movies, but is an arrogant jerk. Scientology is in my opinion a scam!-Grand Moff Conway