Is Palpatine Anakin's father?

[Bill]

Is Palpatine Anakin's father?

[Skynxnex]

Okay, Plaugeis was Seiphodeas

 

 

I am sorry but I find that highly unlikely. I am not calling you a liar or anything dont take what I say in that way. I am just saying I think your mistaken.

 

For instance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darth_Plagueis

 

There is no mention of Plagueis being Sifo Dyas. Also http://www.answers.com/topic/darth-plagueis which also mentions that Plagueis was Palpatine's master.

 

The official Star Wars databank hasnt been updated yet to reflect some of the new info we learned in Ep3, but I have a feeling it will be reflected from what was written on these sites. The problem with your assertion that Plagueis = Sifo Dyas and ordered the clone army, is that this must have happened shortly after or before Palpatine ordered the Trade Federation to occupy Naboo. The problem is continuity, how then was Darth Maul a Sith Lord? I find it highly unlikely Plagueis would have allowed Palpatine to take on apprentice since this violates the rule of two that the Sith had been following.

 

For your version to work, the rule of two has to be violated as well as now we are forced to somehow think up a way that Palpatine trained Maul. Its been officially listed that Maul had been trained from a very young age by Palpatine to become a Sith Lord. To me that indicates that Palpatine had done away with Plagueis long long long before the events of The Phantom Menace.

[DarthTofu]

Okay, Plaugeis was Seiphodeas

 

 

I am sorry but I find that highly unlikely. I am not calling you a liar or anything dont take what I say in that way. I am just saying I think your mistaken.

 

For instance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darth_Plagueis

 

There is no mention of Plagueis being Sifo Dyas. Also http://www.answers.com/topic/darth-plagueis which also mentions that Plagueis was Palpatine's master.

 

The official Star Wars databank hasnt been updated yet to reflect some of the new info we learned in Ep3, but I have a feeling it will be reflected from what was written on these sites. The problem with your assertion that Plagueis = Sifo Dyas and ordered the clone army, is that this must have happened shortly after or before Palpatine ordered the Trade Federation to occupy Naboo. The problem is continuity, how then was Darth Maul a Sith Lord? I find it highly unlikely Plagueis would have allowed Palpatine to take on apprentice since this violates the rule of two that the Sith had been following.

 

For your version to work, the rule of two has to be violated as well as now we are forced to somehow think up a way that Palpatine trained Maul. Its been officially listed that Maul had been trained from a very young age by Palpatine to become a Sith Lord. To me that indicates that Palpatine had done away with Plagueis long long long before the events of The Phantom Menace.

 

The clone army was ordered, what, sixteen years in advance? As you've said before, what is Palpy saw his masters notes on this plan and ordered the army later on for when it would be needed? Also, who knows how fast Zabrach develope? The horn-heads might become older in about half the time it would take a human to. Thus, it technically is a very young age. Also, reguardless of everything else, i still think I have some support from order sixty-six. A Jedi Master just plain wouldn't have entered a command into his troops that they should kill the jedi. And (don't quote me here, because I forget where the hell it was, and it could be my imagination acting up again) I think I remember something saying that the clones were given all of their orders when they were trained in the clone-accademy-place. So, then, how would Palpatine know about order sixty-six unless he implemented it into the clones. Or it could just be that he gave them the order based on his position as Supreme Chancelor of the Republic.

[Skynxnex]

The Order 66 part is something I wish Lucas had made more clear because its so ambiguous.

 

I hear ya though, well hopefully either an EU story will come out which fleshes out the whole Sifo Dyas character and we find out what is what. Or, hopefully Lucas makes something more clear on the official databank at SW.com.

[Paul]

I believe I read that it was Dooku posing as Sifo Diyas who ordered up the clones. And Jango Fett actually states in The Phantom Menace that "Someone named Tyranus" ordered him to train the clones or "got me this job". He may have actually given Dooku's Sith name as a ruse OR he may have told the simple truth. As Sky says we will have to wait for more info to be sure %100.-Grand Moff Conway

[Bill]

It figures that I was right 2 years before the movie came out, that Palpatine was Anakin's father, Man am I brilliant or what!!!

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I mentioned what Conway said in an earlier post. Dooku posed as Sifo-Dyas to make the clones, but went ahead and used his Sith name with Jango (presumably because he didnt want Jango going to the council if he had any questions or concerns about the job). We also know that it was Dooku/Tyranus who trained Qui-Gon, as Dooku specifically says that in Ep. 2 when Obi-Wan is a little...tied up. Dooku also helps Obi-Wan-Complusive-Liar-Kenobi by being not only Qui-gon's master, but Yoda's apprentice. That way, we get this line:

 

Yoda-->Dooku-->Qui-Gon (Ra's Al Ghul) Jinn-->Obi-Wan-->Luke.

 

Since Yoda's lessons eventually trickled their way down to Obi, he can say that, indirectly, Yoda was the Jedi master who taught him! Of course, Obi-Wan is a compulsive liar anyway. Then again, so was Dooku, posing as Sifo-Dyas! Hmm....Yoda lied about the twins, making them appear to have died with Padme....now if we can just find evidence that Qui-Gon was a compulsive liar, we'll be good to go.

[Skynxnex]

LOL. Well as it was mentioned before, we wont really know for certain till Lucas clears this up, either by an update on the Star Wars databank website OR through an EU story.

[DarthTofu]

Aye. What really floors me is that Anakin, who is so atuned to the force, couldn't figure out that Padme' had twins. There were most deffinately two seperate people in her, but he still didn't know that Leiah was his daughter until episode six. Didn't he bother to look inside her when she was on the Death Star? Let me refrase that- didn't he investigate her with the force? He'd have found some Anakin in her.

[AdmiralToguroAni]

Vader was having an off day during Episode IV. He was about to vaporize Luke and he had no idea that Luke was his son. "The Force is strong with this one." No duh, helmet head--he's your SON! I think he was too busy taking orders from Emperor Tarkin to really pay attention.

 

Seriously though, I think he was too busy trying to pry Leia for information rather than learning about her with the Force. Vader can't read minds, and so he was so busy using that probe droid that he didnt think to look into her. And why should he? After all, I doubt Vader checks every one of his captives to see if they are related. Unless the person radiates an incredibly strong aura (like Luke and Obi), then Vader would probably have to actively sense them out. Notice that Vader could only barely sense Obi's aura when on the Death Star, so that lets you know how hard it was for him.

 

In ep. 3, he'd only be able to Force Sense the twins, but Leia was so weak in the force that she might not even register right next to the uber-sensitive Luke, so that might explain the misconception.

[Eko]

That doesn;t follow though, if Luke projects such an aura, then his twin should also do the same. Bear in mind that Yoda was convinced that if Luke fell Leia was a credible alternative and therefore she must have the same sort of potential...Why he didn't get Leia could be explained by the quote from Obi Wan:

 

"The force can have power over the weak minded" (something lilke that)

 

Leia was strong enough to resist the probe droid, maybe she had the strength of will (related to the potential I mentioned earlier paerhaps?) to delfect Vader's probing witout realising it...

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I havent read any of the NJO stuff, but Leia seemed to be a pretty weak Jedi in the books that were published pre-Ep.1. I think that she was simply too weak to be detectable. As for Yoda's comment, look at it this way and it works:

 

Yoda meant Leia was their last hope because if Luke fell to the dark side or died or didnt do the job then Leia could make Vader see the good in himself and bring balance to the Force by killing Palpy. Yes I know that Leia hated Vader for the whole Alderaan thing, but given that he was her father, Leia might have been able to put her feelings aside long enough to turn Vader. Luke did it, and I figure a senator probably has more self-control than a farm boy.

[DarthTofu]

As for the mind reading thing- how do you explain Vader's sudden knowledge that luke has a twin sister in ROTJ? Also, in ROTJ Luke makes the whole stupid speach of "The force is strong in my family. My mother had it (You sure about that?). My father had it. my sister has it" Or something along those lines. This proved Leia to be atuned to the force.

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I never said that she isnt attuned to the force, but rather she's weak enough in it to be overlooked. As for Vader knowing about Leia in ROTJ, that one's easy--we know that Vader can read his son's mind. Look how they were communicating mentally in ESB. When they were fighting in front of the Emperor, he simply read his mind and found the thing that would ignite Luke's rage--the idea of turning Leia evil

[Skynxnex]

Guys guys guys. Leia is not as strong as Luke is. She might have Jedi potential but she isnt up to Luke's level. I am pretty sure that its canon fact that Luke is arguably the strongest Jedi to ever come in existence. Its been strongly hinted at in most novels (with the exception of Kevin J Anderson because for whatever reason he created Kyp Duron).

 

At any rate, Vader can read minds, he read Luke's mind in ROTJ in case anyone forgot. He also mentioned in ANH that "her resistance to the mind probe is considerable. It will take some time to extract anything useful" or something like that. Vader can read minds. Most of you I think are forgetting that using the Force is a conscious endeavor. Anakin was undoubtedly wrapped up into too much emotion and rage that he didnt bother to focus on the children that Padme was carrying. Much like how Palpatine didnt sense Yoda till he knocked the Imperial Royal Guards over in that one scene in RoTS. A Force user has to be consciously using the Force and draw on it to use its power. Not all the time do they draw on it. Think about Palpatine, had he been constantly drawing on the Force why didnt the Jedi detect him then? We see in AOTC that he has conferences with Jedi in his very own office. It goes without saying then that had he started drawing on the force in their presence they would have noticed it. Much like reading minds, its something that requires a conscious effort. Otherwise again, why didnt the Jedi detect that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?

[Eko]

Well my theory on that is that (like yours) you can only detect foce sensitivity in another when they use it. Think about it, in EP I Qui Gon has to test Anakin's blood to see if he is force sensitive, and Anakin has such a high midichlorin count that he must be radiating the force from every possible outlet. But I still stand by my point that if you are srtong minded enough you can control yourself, statements such as "The force is strong with this one" from Vader in ANH in the trench and "I can feel your anger" from Palpy in the throne room in ROTJ seem to happen under the most intense pressure, possibly when this self control fails. Remember my previous quote and Obi-Wan saying that the force has a great influlence over the weak minded...

[DarthTofu]

Going back to a previous post, someone mentioned Palpy's not being able to sense Yoda. Well, what if Yoda was like Corran in "I, Jedi"? Corran could draw the frce in around him so that no one could find him, including a thousand year old sith lord on Yavin. Also, Anakin wasn't on the dark side when he first found out about the twins. He probably would have used good side force to find out about the twins.

[Skynxnex]

Going back to a previous post, someone mentioned Palpy's not being able to sense Yoda. Well, what if Yoda was like Corran in "I, Jedi"? Corran could draw the frce in around him so that no one could find him, including a thousand year old sith lord on Yavin. Also, Anakin wasn't on the dark side when he first found out about the twins. He probably would have used good side force to find out about the twins.

 

 

Uh..what? Yes he was in the dark side when he found out about the twins, that was in ROTJ in the Emperor's Throne Room. He was trying to seduce Luke to the darkside and he read Luke's mind and goes "So..you have a twin sister. Obi Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the darkside then perhaps she will" and Luke just attacked Vader practically turning to the darkside himself.

 

As for your other point about Yoda, it could be possible that he did use the Force to mask himself. The thing is that is relying on the EU. I was trying to make a point straight from the movie. We know from logic that Palpatine has Jedi in his office all the time. Since the Jedi never detected that he was a Sith or read his mind, it follows that it has to be a conscious effort on behalf of a Jedi to read someone's mind. Or, maybe Palpatine was using the Force to shield his mind. The problem with that again is that Palpatine is drawing on the Force to do something and a Jedi should be able to detect something like that. Think about it too from this perspective. A Jedi cannot function on a huge city-world like Coruscant if IF they read minds without effort. On Coruscant there are countless beings that live there. Trillions is just the tip of the iceberg. With so many minds thinking about whatever a Jedi would go crazy from being bombarded by all the thoughts people were having. More than likely a Jedi's mind reading ability is dependent on their desire to actually expend some degree of 'effort' to do so. Much like any Force skill, the Force user has to consciously be drawing on the Force to for example levitate themselves or jump super high etc.

[DarthTex]

I agree with Skynxnex, use of the Force is a conscious act. Masking yourself in the Force (Yoda & Palpatine) is a sort of a "Force cloaking device". It's not an overt act that is easily detectable. When Vader read Luke's mind in the Throne Room, it's not that Luke is "weak minded" but that he is "distracted" and letting other thoughts run amok in his mind. More than likely if Luke could've kept his concentration centered, Vader would have got nothing. Which is probably why Liea was good at resisting the mind probe in ANH (concentrate Liea! Use the Force. Ooops wrong sibling ). Luke was using the Force on the trench run and Vader picked it up.

 

If the Force can be used to levitate objects or move objects (size matters not <= Yoda), and used to "Force" jump, why couldn't Palpatine "stop" his fall down the shaft on the second Death Star? He could have landed on some catwalk or something. It's obvious he was too preoccupied with frying Luke to notice that Darth Vader/Anakin was changing his mind and came up behind him. If Anakin (in AotC) can jump out of an airspeeder with no problem and land on a moving speeder with the escaping Kam driving, why couldn't Palpatine pull off something similar (other than ruining the end of the movie)? Just a thought.

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I have no solid evidence to back this part up, but in regards to things like Force Jump/run etc, I wonder if perhaps the Force might merely enhance what a person can already do rather than allow them to do things which you physically cant do (ignoring mind tricks, mind reading and telepathy, as those are more mental). If that holds true, it explains why Jedi jump and not fly. It also explains why Palpy was helpless from the time he got picked up to the time he got thrown down the shaft. Since there isnt anything a human can do while falling (cant jump because he cant get leverage), then even with all of his force power, all he could do is fall.

 

Another possibility is that the Emperor, being around 105 years old and all, just want mentally up to the task of frying Luke, organizing his fleet over Endor, coping with Vader's betrayal, and then getting shafted. All of that is a lot of pressure for an old guy. I still say that Dooku could have taken Yoda or Anakin in Eps 2 and 3 if he had been fresh, and perhaps Palpy was the same way--mentally drained from overseeing the biggest fight against the Rebellion that he'd ever seen.

[DarthTofu]

I don't think so. The beginning of Episode three would have been something of a "traumatic" experiance for an old guy- didn't you see the thousands of ships getting the crap blown out of them? I don't think watching something like that would have an effect on him. he actuallyenjoys it, blowing them up with a Death Star. Then again, who wouldn't ?

[AdmiralToguroAni]

He was 25 years younger in Episode III. That factors in, too

[DarthTofu]

I'd say that's a good point, but Obi is about the same age, and Alderan is just a huge disturbance in the force- he actually has to sacrifice himself before he dies at Vader's hand.

[AdmiralToguroAni]

Woa woa hold on. Obi isn't anywhere NEAR Palpy's age! Lets do some math here.

 

Episode 1: Palpy looks around 70 years old, Obi is around 18.

 

Episode 2: Palpy is now around 80 years old. Obi is around 28.

 

Episode 3: Palpy is around 83 years old. Obi is around 31.

 

Episode 4: Palpy is around 103 YEARS OLD Obi is around 51.

 

I'm guessing that a hard life in exile took its toll on Obi's looks, but not his mind (poor Yoda. It turned him from CGI into a muppet). I'm guessing around 5 years goes on between Episodes IV and VI, so that puts Palpy at 108 years old. We already know that the Dark Side eats at your body. We can't expect Palpy to be anywhere near as powerful in ROTJ as he was in ROTS. He's too old.

[Stellar_Magic]

Obi was in his mid twenties in Episode I, your numbers are off.

[Trejiuvanat]

Obi was in his mid twenties in Episode I, your numbers are off.

 

Yup, he was in the 26-28 range, which make him 57-59 range in ANH, which is consistent with Sir Alec Guiness age when he shot the movie (he was 61 then, I think).

 

But age does not seem too much of an issue in the Star Wars galaxy.