What was it that really RUINED the Empire?!

[igorimp]

Take in your voting ballots and tell us what YOU think!

[Bill]

I am an Empire fan and I voted for Imperial overconfidence. They thought the could blow through the Rebellion like the wind, but it ended up a disaster for the Imperials.

[ADarkJedi44]

I would have to say them all. They all tore apart the empire in a way.

[SOCL]

If you mean what ruined them in ROTJ, then that's a little harder to pin-point, but if you mean in the over-all picture, then it was definitely. I mean, that could geezer was ruining things by allowing the politicians to squable so much with the military. Along with that, he made the mistake of making the Death Stars and, thus, sucked vital resources out of the Empire. He also ruined a government that would have probably worked better (worked better than both Republics) had it not been for so much corruption and problems inthe upper echelons of the Imperial government. For example, you had the head Imperial intellgence killed by his own daughter, who, subsequentally, took over for daddy (Ysanne Isard). You had a grand moff who apparently could care less about Vader's authority and was running rampid with a superweapon that was doomed to fail and who had been warned of the flaw (Tarkin). The list goes on and on. The problems all leading back to Palpatine. You see, he was a good leader in the sense that he could rally the people together for a common cause, but he was a bad commander. He would try to rally troops and command armies, but couldn't since he didn't have the experience and was far too cocky and egotistical to realize any of that; he tried to be what he couldn't. My point is that Palpatine is to blame for the Empire's ruin. Had it been led by someone such as Thrawn (or someother grand admiral or a grand general), then things probably would have turned out quite differently for our friends, the Imperials who have been reduced to a mere fraction of a fraction of their original size. I mean, even their name has been reduced: they are no longer the Galactic Empire, not even the Empire, they are the Imperial Remnant...who degrading....

[ADarkJedi44]

Well Palpatine did start the empire in the first place.

[Trejiuvanat]

There's a Rebel opinion.

 

The Empire was fatally flawed, its upper echelons were occupied by a tumor that would become greater... No matter how efficient the Empire might have been it was doomed to failure.

It was only a matter of time.

[Guest Scathane]

I agree that the Empire's upper echelon's were corrupted and that the Emperor wasn't a true military commander. Nevertheless, I voted Imperial overconfidence because of the Empire's chronical lack of respect for their enemy.

[SOCL]

I agree that the Empire's upper echelon's were corrupted and that the Emperor wasn't a true military commander. Nevertheless, I voted Imperial overconfidence because of the Empire's chronical lack of respect for their enemy.

That's true, though I still say its rooted in Palpatine, who instilled the overconfidence in the commanders and politicans and, subsequentally, into the troops. You see, if the leader and/or commander at the top commits a faux pas of some sort, everyone suffers.

[igorimp]

I am glad to see the vote is proceeding well.

 

I am particulary pleased that the votes are equally split between answers. It is interesting to note that most people consider the cause to be WEAKNESS of the Empire, rather then STRENGTH of the Rebels.

[Guest Scathane]

I agree with you, SOCL. In considering what I should vote, however, I reasoned that it was indeed the Emperor at fault, but I think his fault was more that he underestimated the Rebellion than that he screwed up on the conceptual front. I do not believe that the Emperor was misguided in his vision because he commissioned the Death Star or even the second Death Star, for that matter. I would assert however that considering the Rebels destroyed both Death Stars and that Vader's plan in Cloud City largely failed, the Empire failed to come to grips with the actual threat the Rebel Alliance was in fact posing.

 

You must admit that after having your first Death Star Destroyed by a handful of heroes, you don't just let people through when there's something weird about their access code to the planet that holds the Achilles heel of your second operation. Especially not when we regard to safety regulations directly around the actual building the shield generator was housed in: you would have expected fences, minefields, watchtowers, sentries, and whatnots. But not, we’ve got the building a few square feet of open ground and then there’s the forest. We don’t need anything else. After all, we’ve got those brilliant unstealable, uncrackable Imperial codes: if they check out, we should be just fine! Moreover, we got that handful of Speederbikes and even, say, a dozen AT-ST's!

 

Now, I'm not a military expert, so correct me if I'm wrong, SOCL but if you look at the nature of the Endor Shield generator, and its tactical surroundings, you know one thing for sure: IF there's going to be aqn enemy mission directed against it, it's going to be a sabotage mission by elite forces. If that were the case, I wouldn't defend my base with a dozen tanks and a few motorcycles... That base would be heavily guarded by troops.

[SOCL]

I agree with you, SOCL. In considering what I should vote, however, I reasoned that it was indeed the Emperor at fault, but I think his fault was more that he underestimated the Rebellion than that he screwed up on the conceptual front. I do not believe that the Emperor was misguided in his vision because he commissioned the Death Star or even the second Death Star, for that matter. I would assert however that considering the Rebels destroyed both Death Stars and that Vader's plan in Cloud City largely failed, the Empire failed to come to grips with the actual threat the Rebel Alliance was in fact posing.

A very good point and even better evidence to back it, Scath!

 

You must admit that after having your first Death Star Destroyed by a handful of heroes, you don't just let people through when there's something weird about their access code to the planet that holds the Achilles heel of your second operation. Especially not when we regard to safety regulations directly around the actual building the shield generator was housed in: you would have expected fences, minefields, watchtowers, sentries, and whatnots. But not, we’ve got the building a few square feet of open ground and then there’s the forest. We don’t need anything else. After all, we’ve got those brilliant unstealable, uncrackable Imperial codes: if they check out, we should be just fine! Moreover, we got that handful of Speederbikes and even, say, a dozen AT-ST's!

And further excellent proof followed by evidence! Grand, simply grand!

 

Now, I'm not a military expert, so correct me if I'm wrong, SOCL but if you look at the nature of the Endor Shield generator, and its tactical surroundings, you know one thing for sure: IF there's going to be aqn enemy mission directed against it, it's going to be a sabotage mission by elite forces. If that were the case, I wouldn't defend my base with a dozen tanks and a few motorcycles... That base would be heavily guarded by troops.

You're absolutely correct, Scath. I had not realized it until you pointed it out, but the shield generator was very underguarded. Had this been a more real-life situation, there would have been an extensive fence (maybe even a double fence) sorrounding the generator building compound. This would have been patroled by speederbikes, AT-STs, a few AT-ATs, and MANY, MANY troops. Sentry towers would have been set up just within visual range of each other (thus varying, some 10 meters apart, others more or less). Along with that, outposts of one of two soldiers should have been set up further outside the compound, keeping reports of movement flowing continiously back to the main base. Secondly, batteries (weapons emplacements and anti-space batteries) should have been set up to help defend the base from both ground and space/air forces. And they should have ordered the shuttle Tyderium to land on the landing pad, not just out in the middle of the forest like it did. I mean, did the Imperials fail to notice the fact that the shuttle was supposedly carrying parts and such for the facilities on the forest moon and instead of landing where it would have seemed reasonable, the landing pad, it landed in the middle of nowhere? Again, it may have been due to Imperial overconfidence; but then again you could claim "good guy has to win" rule, or, simply, a mistake.

One way or another, Scath, you were right on the money!

[Tsunami]

I would argue that Palpatine's concept of a power elite was the Empire's doom.

All those politicians and people from the economy scheming to gain power... Xixor is a good example, since a syndicate like the Black Sun could only thrive in a highly corrupt society. Xixor only worked for his own benefit (like everyone else) and proposed to let the Rebels have the new Death Star's plans. We all know where that led to.

 

Ouf course, this system had been there for hundreds of generations, and it still is not rooted out, though the GFFA seems to be more strict in that regard.

 

I'd say it was the people around Palpatine; which he put there himself.

 

 

All this applies to the New Republic, too. It was the power elite that did not understand how to build a system that was not ruled by the wrong people. Fey'lya was a brillinat politician, but in his vision was only space for himself and maybe the Bothan race.

[ElvisMiggell]

All very interesting points. I think the real downfall of te Empire is Luke Skywalker. One wonders what would have happened if Vader hadn't turned, whether Luke would have found a way or not. But as soon as the Emperor was gone, an inexorable slide into insignificance began, halted only by Thrawn.

[ADarkJedi44]

As soo n as the Emperor died thouigh the Empire collapsed.

[Trejiuvanat]

The ideal of the Empire that Palpatine had, died at Endor.

The concept of the Empire that was left behind remained. But too soon people forgot that they were an Empire without an Emperor. Isard would call herseld Steward of Coruscant, and Thrawn would never call himself Emperor. Not even Zsinj did.

When Palpy came back his officers and what remained of the upper echelons, had forgotten what it meant to have an Emperor. Thrawn's campaign had shown them that the Empire could survive and conquer, without an Emperor at it's head.

Palpy's resurrection, was in that sense failed. And his goals were most occupied with executing revenge on the Skyalker family than restoring his mighty Empire.

[wormie]

The rebels ruined the Empire, But I must admit that if it weren't for Palpatine's misguided vision then there would be no rebels, so in reality it was a combination of things, but the rebels destroying two, not one, but two Death Stars hurt the Imperials financially and people wise.

[Likinsman]

I think that the Empire will live on forever!!!!!

HAIL THRAWN AND HIS TACTICAL GENOIUS!!!!

Na, really, the Empire was doomed to failure with Palpy at the head, but i think it could have survived under Thrawn. It would have been a different Empire, but better for the people of the galaxy. And it makes you wonder, if Thrawn had won against the Rebellion, would he be able to repulse the Vong.

[Guest Scathane]

Maybe we should take the poll stats as guidelines for what ruined the empire...

[dude21]

I think if the Emperor and Vader still alive the Empire would be never defeated because they arranged the resistance vs Rebels from Coruscant.

The loss of the 2nd Deathstar at Endor is unimportant. The Stardestroyer fleet is still intact.

[Guest Scathane]

Again, we return to the point in our elaborations where we ask ourselves how it could ever be possible that the Rebel Alliance ia able to defeat the Empire with its massive fleet?

[igorimp]

Now, that's not entirely fair.

 

I'm perfectly sure that several hundred Rebel X-wing fighters are perfectly capable of blasting the shit out of ~24'000 Imperial Star Destroyers, even if it would take them 6000+ years.

 

Aside my sarcastic remarks, I think the Rebels could have destroyed the massive fleet following the collapse of the Empire's command structure at Endor. Still, I doubt it would have been as easy or simple as the post-ROTJ books state. On Coruscant in just FIVE YEARS?! Yeah. Sure.

 

Why don't we test this in Rebellion? Allow your opponent to build 24 thousand ISDs and THEN TRY to take Coruscant away from him...

[dude21]

24000 Stardestroyers, that means 144000 Tie Fighter/Interceptor/Bomber

I beliefe several 1000 x-wings are not enough

Return to the main point: I think the Empire can never be defeated if a strong leader (Palpy,Vader / Thrawn) rule it and manage the building of more troops / fleets.

Sure the Rebel Alliance become strong but never as strong as the Empire

[Bill]

There is no way that the Empire couldn't blow the heck out of the Republic, look at all the ships they had, it isn't possible.

[glandry]

Now, I'm not a military expert, so correct me if I'm wrong, SOCL but if you look at the nature of the Endor Shield generator, and its tactical surroundings, you know one thing for sure: IF there's going to be aqn enemy mission directed against it, it's going to be a sabotage mission by elite forces. If that were the case, I wouldn't defend my base with a dozen tanks and a few motorcycles... That base would be heavily guarded by troops.

 

Scath, you're 100% correct here. I made this point in another thread, and this is what makes ROTJ so stupid. On Naboo, when he hardly had any power, Palpy was intent on killing every Gungan on the planet. A planet with little or no strategic value really. However, on Endor, the shield generator is virtually unguarded! What kind of military dork thought up the defenses? The forest should have been cleared for miles around! Hello, have you ever heard of barbed-wire?

 

The Empire lost because GL needed them to lose. I just wish he hadn't made them look so stupid.

 

Now, if Darth Vader had been the Emperor, it would have been a different story. He'd have been roasting Ewoks with his lightsaber!!!

 

OK, one last rant, when the shield generator blows up, there is a HUGE explosion. But the folks on the ground are only about 30' away from the installation hiding behind a log. There should have been BBQ hero on the menu along with the Ewoks.

[glandry]

Again, we return to the point in our elaborations where we ask ourselves how it could ever be possible that the Rebel Alliance ia able to defeat the Empire with its massive fleet?

 

We are forgetting the Alliance's secret weapon, gained at great risk by their secret agent "Revolotion". They must have had RebEd to beef up the stats of their pitiful fleet