Re: Space battles not as good as I expected them to be....

[Delphi-PG]

Hey now guys don't forget about the FreeSpace games

 

 

Great game!  But it was more geared to the FPS crowd than RTS.  The Descent series was also very cool.

[raydude]

The sneaking a fleet in is more in regard to playing against a human, and as so far as going a few degrees above the enemy... In Homeworld 2 you could go as far up and down as you could left or right, forward or backward.

 

That only works until the players figure out that the main way to play is in the "galactic" screen to maintain situational awareness and then drop into the "tactical" screen to micromanage a battle. Then again, by forcing people to play in the "galactic" screen the emphasis moves away from feeling like you're in "Star Wars" to feeling like you're in a CIC on a ship somwhere.

[Guest JediIgor]

But you still haven't answered my question, can you name some space-battle including games that have been released since Homeworld?

 

That caught my attention like Warcraft, Starcraft, Age of Empires, C&C, Dark Reign, Dragonshard, RTW.  Nope...

 

So basically no space games besides HW have come out.

 

"I do pose the question, if the perspective in HM was so great, how come more developers don't adopt it for there games?  Hmm..."

 

:

 

when space battles went 3D with Homeworld

 

They went 3D for the Homeworld franchise.  Homeworld was built around this aspect from day 1, EAW was not.

 

If one day we decide full 3D is a route we want to go, then we'll design a game around this mechanic. 

 

Eh, what, sorry. I am pretty sure if we had the technology for a real life space battle, we wouldn't be stuck in 2D. I can tell you this for sure because even *naval* battles on Earth are 3D after you factor in submarines and airplanes.

 

Why not say what you really mean -- most gamers are too inept to handle thinking in 3 dimensions?

[Delphi-PG]

Eh, what, sorry. I am pretty sure if we had the technology for a real life space battle, we wouldn't be stuck in 2D. I can tell you this for sure because even *naval* battles on Earth are 3D after you factor in submarines and airplanes.

 

I have complete faith someone is going to come along and make another Homeworld like game that you will truly enjoy. 

[Saracen]

If anything, this game is a dumbed down version of Imperium Galactica 2. But I will jump immediately to the Defense of EaW in a moment... Imperium Galactica 2 is my favourite Space RTS of all time. In my opinion, in it's day it even kicked the backside (even if it was in a different league) of Command & Conquer.

 

Based on what I've seen in the demo of Eaw...

 

If you were to add diplomacy, unit weapon modifications, an advanced spying system, an advanced tax system (low, normal high), no pop caps, and galactic trading. As well as a messaging system that would further the storyline, planetary building, no loading times and a real time galactic map where space battles are possible anywhere....

 

But then simplify the space battles, and ground battles, remove the great multiplayer element and the huge tactical element that's within Eaw, you get Imperium Galactica 2.

 

Obviously (and Delphi will back this up) I'm missing a huge chunk of what Empire at War is about. I know that, he knows that. Imperium Galactica 2 was about a heavy handed learning curve, and having to switch screens every 5-30 seconds which turned it into galactic government simulation more than an RTS. Simplifying all this gameplay actually works well from what I've seen, and it appears to be more fun and fast paced.

 

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the Space battles. If anything, they rock! This is inspired by Conquest Frontier wars, which was a C&C style space only game... That game, although not massively popular was a damn cool game, it worked well and contains so many great elements... The only problem with it though, is that you could warp to upto 16 different Star Systems (all on different maps) which made the game difficult to follow.

 

When the full game comes out. In my review, I will be making comparisons to the RTS games the inspiration is taken from. Especially Imperium Galactica 2 and Frontier Wars, which are the only other games of their kind which even comes close to the full scale model of Empire at War. It'll be a good review, since I have had the full 15 years RTS experience, and I have played most of the commercial RTS games out there since Dune 2 in 1992. 

[Guest JediIgor]

Eh, what, sorry. I am pretty sure if we had the technology for a real life space battle, we wouldn't be stuck in 2D. I can tell you this for sure because even *naval* battles on Earth are 3D after you factor in submarines and airplanes.

 

I have complete faith someone is going to come along and make another Homeworld like game that you will truly enjoy. 

 

The issue isn't with Homeworld, it's that you're stuck in 2D.  :

 

When the full game comes out. In my review, I will be making comparisons to the RTS games the inspiration is taken from.

 

Sadly, from what you describe, IG2 is a 4X game. Actually, I'll try to play it now that you've told me about it, I've had a copy lying around forever .

[Delphi-PG]

The issue isn't with Homeworld, it's that you're stuck in 2D.

 

Yep...  ;D But, we're still having fun with it. 

[Cain]

One thing that I most admire at Delphi is his work after looking into the xmls I must say that I have greatly underestimate him not to mention the map designs.

 

He has the passion of a modder in his work.

 

One question i still have in my mind: Did you he ever played the Warlords mod for HW2? Or the Nexus game?

[Saracen]

Well 3D style camera like on the ground on a 2D plane... It would be one hell of a task to create 2 different engines, or even a single Engine to do that, and it can be a tough cookie to code and debug to get them work without too many loading screens.

 

OK, it's not necessarily hard. We now have games coming out that are now incorporating RTS with the First Person shooter (The next C&C aparently has this.) But then you are really complicating things and moving away from the Genre to something different in that respect.

 

Nexus rocked too! It was Imperium Galactica 3, until Digital Reality abandoned it, and HD interactive took it over 

[Guest JediIgor]

The issue isn't with Homeworld, it's that you're stuck in 2D.

 

Yep...  ;D But, we're still having fun with it. 

 

Great advances are not made by the conservative.r

 

But then you are really complicating things and moving away from the Genre to something different in that respect.

Ding ding, I don't want an RTS, I want a true "Star Wars" simulator.

[Delphi-PG]

Did you he ever played the Warlords mod for HW2? Or the Nexus game?

 

I did play HM2, but not too completion.  Sadly, never played Nexus.  :-[

 

 

RTS with the First Person shooter (The next C&C aparently has this.)

 

Heh, Renegade 2?

[Saracen]

Then go play a non-RTS Star Wars Game... RTS games are not simulators. Generals do not use laptops to command their troops VIA GPS Satellites, which mysteriously pan down to view any angle on the battlefield and build structures and military hardware in seconds. The only thing close to the simulator you're after is Battlegrounds  :

 

And no Delphi, not Renegade 2.... I suppose you've heard of that new WW2 RTS that's comign out that incorporates a First Person Shooter engine within it (Company Of Heroes), but Westwood recently held a C&C survey that focussed on RTS and First Person Elements. Not only that my friend works at EAUK  ;D

 

They may be developing 2 C&C games. Possibly Renegade 2, with help from the Medal Of Honour Team, and another RTS... But I know if they do make Renegade 2, that'll really annoy you guys... Well if they recreate any games you Started at Westwood, yoou won't be best pleased.

[Necro]

3d over 2d does NOT mean 3d is better.

 

99% of the best adventure games EVER made were 2d. the only exceptions are grim fandango and indigo prophecy.

[Darth Plagueis]

Did you he ever played the Warlords mod for HW2? Or the Nexus game?

 

I did play HM2, but not too completion.

 

Heh I don't blame you, it was hard enough and a bit annoying, i still remember playing the nightmare that was level 9, after 3 tried i said the hell with this! and beat the game with cheats.

 

Yay! Conquest Frontier wars one of my favorite games,

[Cain]

Did you he ever played the Warlords mod for HW2? Or the Nexus game?

 

I did play HM2, but not too completion.  Sadly, never played Nexus.   :-[

 

Hmmmm... pls try to do that now - give to that mod 30 min of your time. Not trying the Warlords mod for HW2 . ... its like wanting to make a new game similar to C&C but never played the best mod for the old C&C. (This sounds familiar  : )

 

Pls try that mod this days and tell us your opinions about it:

http://pff.swrebellion.com/index.php?topic=36.0

[Guest JediIgor]

Then go play a non-RTS Star Wars Game... RTS games are not simulators. Generals do not use laptops to command their troops VIA GPS Satellites, which mysteriously pan down to view any angle on the battlefield and build structures and military hardware in seconds. The only thing close to the simulator you're after is Battlegrounds  :

 

And no Delphi, not Renegade 2.... I suppose you've heard of that new WW2 RTS that's comign out that incorporates a First Person Shooter engine within it (Company Of Heroes), but Westwood recently held a C&C survey that focussed on RTS and First Person Elements. Not only that my friend works at EAUK  ;D

 

They may be developing 2 C&C games. Possibly Renegade 2, with help from the Medal Of Honour Team, and another RTS... But I know if they do make Renegade 2, that'll really annoy you guys... Well if they recreate any games you Started at Westwood, yoou won't be best pleased.

 

I have nothing further to say to you. You have proved your inaptitude with the line "Generals do not.. command their troops with GPS satellites"

 

How do you think they know where their troops are? MAGIC?

[The Saint]

Great advances are not made by the conservative.r

Ding ding, I don't want an RTS, I want a true "Star Wars" simulator.

 

Oh honestly now, a true Star Wars simulator? What are you using to base your knowledge on what a true star wars simulator is? And dont say Warlords, I'm asking for what evidence that is canon that has ships moving along the Z-axis..of course seeing as how there are only two movies RotJ and RotS with battles and neither one of them shows ships moving along the z-axis only at different levels to keep the ships from hitting each other, even at close range.

 

You're the worst kind of fanboy though. Your the kind where if you dont control every little faucet of a battle then its no good. Hey Rebellion had 3D space battles..and guess what? They sucked.

[Guest JediIgor]

Oh honestly now, a true Star Wars simulator? What are you using to base your knowledge on what a true star wars simulator is? And dont say Warlords, I'm asking for what evidence that is canon that has ships moving along the Z-axis..of course seeing as how there are only two movies RotJ and RotS with battles and neither one of them shows ships moving along the z-axis only at different levels to keep the ships from hitting each other, even at close range.

 

You're the worst kind of fanboy though. Your the kind where if you dont control every little faucet of a battle then its no good. Hey Rebellion had 3D space battles..and guess what? They sucked.

 

Your logic is so flawless you had to resort to ad hominem.

[raydude]

Eh, what, sorry. I am pretty sure if we had the technology for a real life space battle, we wouldn't be stuck in 2D. I can tell you this for sure because even *naval* battles on Earth are 3D after you factor in submarines and airplanes.

 

Why not say what you really mean -- most gamers are too inept to handle thinking in 3 dimensions?

 

You are confusing the interface with the battlespace represented by the interface. Even on earth, today, in the modern US navy, the interface in the CIC room is a flat 2D representation of the battlespace. Ships, planes, subs, missles, everything gets its own distinct symbol. BUT the critical thing is that the interface still shows the battlespace in 2D. It is assumed that the commander knows that subs are restricted to a certain plane, as are surface vessels and planes. He does not need graphic eye candy to show him where things are in 3D to plan his strategy.

 

You are also misled in thinking that game design is separate from the interface. As Delphi has explained, the game of Homeworld, the ship design, gun placement, sensor display, EVERYTHING was designed around the fact that from DAY 1 they were going to go with a 3D interface. And so it is that in EAW EVERYTHING from DAY 1 was designed around their concept of having a 2.5D interface handle both the strategic (planning, building, and movement) and the tactical  (battles) which result from the strategic decisions.

[Saracen]

I have nothing further to say to you. You have proved your inaptitude with the line "Generals do not.. command their troops with GPS satellites"

 

How do you think they know where their troops are? MAGIC?

 

Sure they do use GPS navigation to locate their troops, but do not command in the style of a Real Time chess board. All commands are routed through radio transmissions, that's what I meant.

[The Saint]

Your logic is so flawless you had to resort to ad hominem.

 

Is that your way of dodging an arguement, because aside from me calling you the worst kind of fanboy, everything else is still valid. Including Rebellion being horrid when it came to space battles.

[raydude]

Sure they do use GPS navigation to locate their troops, but do not command in the style of a Real Time chess board. All commands are routed through radio transmissions, that's what I meant.

 

Actually, now with the US Army's Force 21 Battle Command, Brigade and Below system (FBCB2) it has now become sort of an RTS interface. The FBCB2 system is mounted in vehicles and provides a real-time graphic display of where friendly and enemy units are. Its also a shared information display among all the armed forces, so a JSTARS plane can detect enemy units, put it on FBCB2 and everyone in a vehicle automatically sees where the units are.

 

FBCB2 is also interactive, so a forward artillery observer can type in some coordinates, call for artillery, adjust fire, and then "Fire for Effect" all digitally, without the use of verbal radio commands. Everything is digital and packets are sent locally through the Army's tactical version of a local internet. No more misunderstood coordinates and less instances of garbled orders or friendly fire. Note that I said less instances. You can never really eliminate some "friction" in battle.

[Saracen]

hmmm. Impressive..  ;D

 

Never knew that. Not really taken the time to observe the latest commander technology in the field... but nevertheless. I like your response too, at least it was constructive instead a disrespect for lack of knowledge or mistakes 

[Necro]

you also gotta look at the context...starwars was made in the 70-80's where we didn't have that fancy technology or even dream of it

[The Saint]

you also gotta look at the context...starwars was made in the 70-80's where we didn't have that fancy technology or even dream of it

 

The original three, the prequels were a different story though.