How realistic are the last 15 minutes of Return of the Jedi

[vakundok]

ElvisMigel: Wel, the novelisations of the movies were made quite close to Lucas, and still, the novelisation of TESB stated that the Executor and five ISDs were more powerfull than anything else in the galaxy ...

 

Stellar_Magic: I think you are wrong. Atmospheric capability does not mean better maneouverability in a gravity well. Victories would have been performed poorer. And I cannot see why the manouverability would be important at all? Since the imperial formation was ordered to stay in place, ANY ship would have been able to make advantage of its maneouverability.

 

The novelisation and the script mention two other lost cruisers. Likely they were mon cal cruisers, but it is not confirmed. (One destroyed a star destroyer in a one on one fight and suffered serious damages. Explosions were starting on its back, but it managed to get next to an other destroyer before exploding completely, taking that with it. The "communication ship" destroyed the second, but was disabled by the cannonage from that cruiser, and Lando's group quickly finished it.)

 

A close call? Well, it is hard to judge. Even when Lando "ordered" the rebell fleet to point-blank range, he assumed they will loose against the imperial fleet:

LANDO (desperately)

Yes! I said closer! Move as close as you can

and engage those Star Destroyers at point-

blank range.

ACKBAR

At that close range, we won't last long

against those Star Destroyers.

LANDO

We'll last longer then we will against that

Death Star...and we might just take a few of

them with us.

 

However, what Lando was unaware of was that the imperial fleet got direct order not to destroy the rebels:

 

COMMANDER

We're in attack position now, sir.

PIETT

Hold here.

COMMANDER

We're not going to attack?

PIETT

I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He

has something special planned for them. We

only need to keep them from escaping.

 

The three reasons of the loss of the imperial fleet (and the rebels gaining total victory):

1. Lando's brilliant, desperate and unprecedented decision caused the emperor's special plan not to work.

2. Palpatine leaving the fleet in the unexpected situation without new orders.

3. In the new, point-blank situation, the commanding officers of the fleet had no courage to act against the emperor's direct order and destroy the rebel fleet.

Take out any of these, and the imperial fleet would have been victorious!

 

According to the novelisation (and the script, if I remember well) soon after the loss of the DS shield, rebel ships (cruisers, but the novelisation tends to label anything as cruiser) started to bombard the DS, so, at that time it wasn't that close call.

 

Whether the imperials really made a mistake with their fighters is also unclear. If they were ordered to draw the rebel fighters from attacking the star destroyers (it would make sense), they had no other chance than actually sacrificing themselves, by attacking the rebel cruisers (giving the rebel figters a more important thing to do instead of attacking the destroyers (they were heading toward!)).

[DarthFelth]

well i have the twig theory, basicly if han hadnt of stepped on it, the rebels would have sneaked up them scout troopers, killed them. this meaning now swoop scene, which then means that leia wouldnt have got seperated from the other whch means that they wouldnt of meet the Ewoks.

 

then the rebels would have attacked the front and died. The rebel fleet would have wasted, and well luke should of turned and then vader and luke should have killed the emperor and ruled the galaxy as father and son.

What yay think

[vakundok]

Han and Chewbacca were prepared for two scout troopers, but there were four of them. So, while the WEG sourcebook suggests that it was Han's mistep that changed history, I do not agree.

[DarthFelth]

well they wouldnt of been rushing after them after scouts and been detected by the others or if they had they would of been on foot and not on swoops.

[Jahled]

Dudes, this thread has produced many very interesting arguments and points of view concerning the events at Endor; all of which have been enjoyable and at times eye-opening to follow.

 

The very first thing to do is establish that Star Wars is Sci-Fi fantasy; we love it it to bits, but it doesn't conect in anyway to the laws of the real universe; no deep space fighter dogfights, no faster than light hyperspace travel; no Death Stars!! The laws of our universe forbid them! Reaching the edge of our very own solar system is never going to happen for humanity; space is simply to vast!

 

So we must rule out any plausable scientific explainations for any event in the entire Star Wars saga because our beloved Star Wars universe and the possibilities of of our own reality can never meet. Ever.

 

But even if we take into Star Wars physics; Star Destroyers, TIES, Mon Calamari MC-80's, X-Wings, etc, events at Endor still remain a little odd.

 

Firstly, as far as the rebel fighter kick the daylights out of TIEs argument goes; it simply doesn't make any sense! If you, as the ruling Empire, in control of the galaxy's resources; build and continue production with a tactical superioty fighter, the TIE fighter or it's descendents, you simply wouldn't botther if they were being blasted out of the sky by a poorly funded rebel counterpart! Sorry, these 'antiques' as they were described in the book, were not better fighters than TIES; they would have been inferior! Anyway, the book describes TIES as having better lasers, targeting systems, and agility; i'm sorry, but even with the protection of a implausibly-effective shielding, rebel fighters would have been vaporized from the sky. Do you really think a ruling Galactic-Empire would settle for second best?

 

Secondly, I think we've now established there were no fewer than 24 Star Destroyers present at Endor, plus a command ship eight times the length of even these mile-long 'floating cities,' as the original book refers to them. Plus a fully operational Death Star. I'm sorry folks, but mile-long battleships with enough fire power to individually render entire planets uninhabital are not not going to be defeated by converted civilian space ships half their size.

 

Etc...

Endor never happened; the Emperor is forever....

[Shadow_of_Thrawn]

all that taken into account...the rebel fighters were, and have often been stated as being superior to the imperial ships, and part of the reason might be that they were deemed unnecessary for the fleet. this attitude seems to be the one we are supposed to see, just look at tarkin's dismissal of the danger they posed. in the imperial strategic mind star fighters were a nuisance and nothing more, suitable only for dealing with other fighters. thats what ties were originally designed to do...beat the best fighter that rebels or smugglers or other outlaws would have, those being mainly z-95s and y-wings. the rebels, though some dubious luck got their hands on the x-wing however, which was superior to the tie fighter, and also had a secondary role as a capital ship strike platform that wasnt envisioned by, or needed with imperial doctrine. to counter this, the empire in turn developed tie interceptors, which were capable of beating the original x-wing entirely. by the time of endor however, the rebels had advanced ahead again with the b-wing as a replacement for the Y-wing and also the a-wing, which was on par with the interceptor. Rebels fighters, despite poorer supplies and funds were superior, because of how heavily that had to rely on them. building, crewing and equipping a wing of fighters was much more cost effective than converting mon cal cruisers or stealing imperial frigates, so thats what rebel tactics were based around, and the designs followed suit...producing more well rounded fighters, while the only role of the ties was to hunt and kill other fighters.

[vakundok]

well they wouldnt of been rushing after them after scouts and been detected by the others or if they had they would of been on foot and not on swoops.

Chewbacca was not in position to take out the other scout quietly. They would have been avoided detection only if the second scout had remained in quiet after loosing his team mate. It would have been possible, but not too likely. Luke and Leia rushed to the scene after the first shot, and likely that shot was what first allerted the other pair of scouts.

 

Anyhow they had one speeder bike. If both Han and Chewbacca had succeded they would have had two. I see no reason to remain on foot.

[vakundok]

Jahled: I disagree.

Let's see World War II: The USA had the most powerfull industry on the world. Did it produce superior tanks? No, they produced easy to mass produce, but inferior tanks. (If you look to the post war M47, you will see it is nearly a direct copy of the T34.)

Other thing: Strip the VLS (vertical launch system), the fire control and the sensory from a Ticonderoga and place those to a merchant ship. A combat between that modified merchant ship and an other Ticonderoga would have been decided by luck and tactics. In the SW universe the attack depends on the number of the guns mounted and the generator output used for them. The defense depends on the shields, in other words on the generator output. A dedicated warship design could produce lower sensor profile, better gun coverage, more durable hull and better maneouverability. In the SWU, the ECMs are far more important than sensor profiles, the durability of the ship mainly depends on the shield and maneouverability is not used in conventional fleet engagements. Oh, and the gun coverage of he ISDs is very poor. So, the dedicated warships give only very slight edge over converted ships of war.

[DarthFelth]

there were more than the main characters, they only went on the speeder bikes to catch them fleeing troopers, if tehy ahd taken them out, i dare say they would have taken out the other 2 or been able to catch them. Remember luke and that were tehre to command the team, not run off

[vakundok]

The novelisation states that the rest of the commando was ordered to remain further back while the four heroes snaked closer to the scouts. Besides, remember that only general Solo was there to command, the other three heroes only joined officially as ship crew.

[ElvisMiggell]

Jahled: I disagree.

Let's see World War II: The USA had the most powerfull industry on the world. Did it produce superior tanks? No, they produced easy to mass produce, but inferior tanks. (If you look to the post war M47, you will see it is nearly a direct copy of the T34.)

Other thing: Strip the VLS (vertical launch system), the fire control and the sensory from a Ticonderoga and place those to a merchant ship. A combat between that modified merchant ship and an other Ticonderoga would have been decided by luck and tactics. In the SW universe the attack depends on the number of the guns mounted and the generator output used for them. The defense depends on the shields, in other words on the generator output. A dedicated warship design could produce lower sensor profile, better gun coverage, more durable hull and better maneouverability. In the SWU, the ECMs are far more important than sensor profiles, the durability of the ship mainly depends on the shield and maneouverability is not used in conventional fleet engagements. Oh, and the gun coverage of he ISDs is very poor. So, the dedicated warships give only very slight edge over converted ships of war.

 

Interesting point of view that, hadn't really considered it before.

[Hitomi]

Throughout the Expanded Universe novels it has been shown that a great deal of maneuvering is involved in battles. When Grand Admiral Thrawn assaulted the shipyards in Bilbringi he maneuvered his fleet into a “bowl” formation that allowed him to take advantage of he Star Destroyer’s superior forward firepower, and protect the more vulnerable aft sections.

 

Usually when an engagement begins between a Star Destroyer and an equal combatant, the Destroy employs rolling maneuvers to give them the upper hand. Destroyers roll towards an enemy vessel so that they can protect the hangar bay from assault while launching fighters and bombers. They roll their vessels so that damaged weapon systems and shield arrays can be protected and new weapons and full shields can be brought to a target.

 

Star Destroyers do employ a good deal of ECM and countermeasures during battles as was already stated as well.

 

One of the main reasons that Star Destroyers do not maneuver elaborately is because they have no real need to do so beyond damage control and squadron deployment. Star Destroyer’s have the most powerful weapons and shields of their time, and no other vessel can stand up to a slugging match with them. Destroyer’s need only to sit in one place and pummel enemy vessels into submission with their Heavy Turrets.

 

Also, gun coverage on Star Destroyers is only poor in the aft sections. Destroyers have massive forward and broadside capabilities. Aft firing weapons are usually light Turbolaser batteries, and perhaps one or two medium turrets on the dorsal surface.

 

The aft firing arcs are difficult to take advantage of however, due to the facts of the battle.

Mon Calamari Star Cruisers are the only vessels with the firepower capable of brining down a Destroyer’s shields, but they are too large to hide behind a destroyer. Simple rolling maneuvers would bring the ships into each other’s heavy weapon’s arcs.

 

Corvettes and Heavy Cruisers are small enough and fast enough to maneuver into the aft sections, but lack the firepower to bring down the Destroyer’s shields on their own.

 

The aft firing arcs are a weakness yes, but almost impossible to utilize to one’s advantage.

[Mad78]

It seems that fighters are one off the best chances against isds.

simply that with a few squadrons of fighters and a bit of light cruiser support the fighters can eliminate the ties and then us the remaining protn torpedoes to elimate the isd

[Hitomi]

In conjunction with fast cruisers armed with heavy weapons fighters would be capable of turning the tide against a Destroyer. The problem is that the only fighters capable of carrying enough torpedoes to do the job are the slow and none to maneuverable B-wings and Y-wings. It would require a good deal of effort to protect the bombers long enough for them to deliver their payloads. It would take multiple salvos from a couple of squadrons to break through the shields and do enough damage to knock the vessel out. If all 72 Tie Fighters were in the field the attacking force would require a Lancer to protect itself from bombing and strafing runs.

 

In the end it would seem to take multiple cruisers with heavy weapons to take down a Destroyer.