igorimp Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Personally, I think they suck! Maybe I'm just a sore loser (an Imp, of course), but I think it this way: the Empire had a collossal fleet which had MONTHS to prepare for the ambush and gathered a great fleet (cca 24 ISDs against Rebel 4-6 Mon Cals). The Empire had a legion (I think it would be 10'000 troops+) of their most elite ground units to protect one small, heavily foritified installation - yet they were beaten by two dozen rebels and a tribe of furry two-feet rags. What happened on the Death Star is entirely unrealistic, but I'll agree that Vader COULD have thrown old Palpy down the tube (that doesn't mean I ACKNOWLEDGE it). What do you think? There is only one life;There is only one truth;There is only one EMPEROR'S GRAND PLAN. By the way, the Emperor's not dead... he's just resting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisMiggell Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Thrawn Theory i reckon. Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine... Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la Not gone, merely marching far away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glandry Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 That ending sucks big time. The only thing ewoks are good for is the BBQ. NO WAY they could have beaten stormtroopers. Same thing with the space battle. I can see the rebels sabotaging the shield generator and destroying the the Death Star. But no way their fleet or ground forces should have survived... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisMiggell Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Yeah, if the Imps had stayed to duke it out with them, but they didn't, Piett or whoever ordered a retreat. I think the Ewoks vs Stormtroopers things is very much dependant on how many Stormtroopers really were there. Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine... Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la Not gone, merely marching far away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahled Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Bare in mind in the book it states somewhere that the forces of the Empire were 'plunged into confusion,' or something along those lines without the 'guidance' of the Emperor, (what ever that means...) But agree with Glandry: Ewoks BBQ http://www.jahled.co.uk/smallmonkeywars.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthvader567 Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 mmm....BBQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADarkJedi44 Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 They definatly suck. Sweat saves blood-Erwin Rommel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glandry Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Yeah, if the Imps had stayed to duke it out with them, but they didn't, Piett or whoever ordered a retreat. I think the Ewoks vs Stormtroopers things is very much dependant on how many Stormtroopers really were there. Well, to be realistic, if Palpatine was willing to exterminate every single Gungan on Naboo, some backwater little planet in the middle of nowhere, what is the likelyhood that he would have tolerated a bunch of Ewoks within walking distance of his DS Shield Generator. Maybe he was getting mellow in his old age, but for someone who can foresee so many things, he should have been paying more attention to his back yard. Sometimes I get the feeling that Lucas was just a bit overwhelmed by the whole thing, and didn't pay a lot of attention to the actual story and whether or not it made sense. There are many examples that just don't sync up from one movie to the other, like Obi Wan saying he was trained by Yoda, when in fact it was Qui Gon, or like that whole thing with keeping the force in balance (see other thread). Oh well, Leia in slave clothes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scathane Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 I don't see what the big problem is... As far as I can tell, all Star Wars movies are about a group of heroes who are always outnumbered and who always get out on top by achieving the sheer impossible... I don't quite grasp what the difference is with the last fifteen minutes of ROTJ. You guys are seriously going to try and tell me that the way in which Leia was rescued from the first Death Star was realistic? As far as Ewoks and BBQ's are concerned: I doubt they're a tasty lot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trejiuvanat Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 As Elvis said before Thrawn theory. Ewok BBQ with Palpatine's secret sauce.... http://www.swrebellion.com/~jahled/Trej/banner.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 They should of dropped a bomb on all of them, and then ended the movie. The force is strong in my family. No, Luke, I am your father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scathane Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 What is the Thrawn Theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOCL Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 What is the Thrawn Theory? The Thrawn Theory, as it has come to be known, is where Thrawn discusses to Joruus C'baoth and Pallaeon in Heir to the Empire about the events at the Battle of Endor. He states that the Imperial forces were not acting as true forces but were, instead, being supported by the Emperor's force powers. Thus, he basically says that the Imperial forces were incompetent and without the Emperor, they would have fallen apart, which they did. This theory is good and all, but I think it's just another classic example of the "Good Guys Have To Win" rule that infests most the SW universe, and most of literature and such, for that matter. I, personally believe that the Imperial forces at the Battle of Endor were forced to lose because the good guys have to win rule. I also think that had the story been a tad more realistic (without the stupid rule in place), the Imperials would have come out victorious. As a matter of fact, they would have probably come out 100% victorious and should have long since crushed the Rebellion...perhaps even with "one swift stroke". Of course, to keep within continuity, the Thrawn Theory is the only thing that makes sense...as much as I hate to be forced to say that the Imperials relied that much on the Emperor.... For people who hated Jedi, they sure did rely on the Force a lot.... ARGH! Another reason I dislike GL.... SOCL: Putting the BE in BEAK.Read the Forum Rules - Welcome the New Members - Rebellion Reloaded - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igorimp Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 You guys are seriously going to try and tell me that the way in which Leia was rescued from the first Death Star was realistic? I humbly acknowledge your point. For the so-called ELITE troops, they sure suck at aiming at close distances... In fact, the closer the Stormtroopers are to any rebel, the worse their aiming gets (see ep. IV for confirmation). Oh, well, maybe it's the helmet in the way... Back to the story, what I had in mind about realizam in the last 15 minutes has more to do with the PRESENTATION of the very ending. I could have gotten over the defeat if you would get the feeling that the Rebels actually LOST something in the battle, but no: The Imperial forces included:EQUIPMENT:1 Death Star (destroyed), 1 Super SD (destroyed), 24 ISDs (majority most likely destroyed), a legion of Stormtroopers (trampled by logs) and a shield generator (blown up);PEOPLE:The Emperor (now a pancake), Darth Vader (dead), admiral Piett (dead), moff Jerrjerrod (dead) and AT LEAST 1,5 million officers, men, troopers and crewman KILLED. The Rebels had:EQUIPMENT:a ragtag fleet of (at most) 6 Calamari cruisers (only 1 confirmed to be destroyed) and supporting craft of unknown (but small) composition and type, and a commando strike team that succeded to destroy a shield generator in spite of all odds.PEOPLE:Luke Skywalker (got a little shocked, but otherwise unhurt), Han Solo (no damage), Chewbacca (no damage), Lando Calrissian (no damage), admiral Ackbar (no damage), Wedge Antilles (no damage), C-3PO (no damage, sadly), R2-D2 (little shocked, but OK) and Leia Organa (wounded in the shoulder - the highest rebel casualty of the battle). All in all, it would be exaggerating to say the rebels LOST some 10'000 men: that would be my bet. GEE, I think that if it wasn't an Imperial ambush, the Rebels would have CRUSHED the Imps ( ). Like I said, I can get over the victory if their would be REBEL casualties in the list; but the only victim of the battle was Lando who died ONLY in the original script. I can swallow (although the digestion is up for debate) the Thrawn theory, but the battle lasted some TWO hours and the Emperor was killed during the very end of it - and AFTER the shield generator was destroyed: so you take your pick. Oh, well - maybe Ackbar would play a harf in Return of the Jedi, the Ultimate Edition: subtitled: THE TRUTH ABOUT ENDOR... LOL. There is only one life;There is only one truth;There is only one EMPEROR'S GRAND PLAN. By the way, the Emperor's not dead... he's just resting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisMiggell Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Hmmm, i see what you mean abpout the casualties. Did the battle really last two hours? Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine... Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la Not gone, merely marching far away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igorimp Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 It was a bit of deduction on my part. All technical manuals state that the Death Star superlaser charges up and fires every one hour. The movie shows two ships being blasted by the DS (there could have been more, but that's open for speculation). That would mean two hours. Take into account that the Death Star didn't fire as soon as the battle begun (add cca 15 minutes) and it was destroyed before the entire battle was over (another 15). All in all, that would put two and a half hours at the least. There is only one life;There is only one truth;There is only one EMPEROR'S GRAND PLAN. By the way, the Emperor's not dead... he's just resting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igorimp Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 I forgot to add that the 1-hour recharge is for ships; blasting entire planets take more energy - the recharge is done once in a day. Guess that is why the first DS didn't blast Yavin planet and then the moon, but instead bothered to go AROUND the planet to fire. There is only one life;There is only one truth;There is only one EMPEROR'S GRAND PLAN. By the way, the Emperor's not dead... he's just resting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOCL Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 igorimp, I must say your research into this topic is quite impressive. Now, I am an Imperial, but I must point out that the Rebels did lose MANY fighters during the space battle. You'll notice that Lando says, "...all fighters follow me." when they begun their attack on the DSII's main reactor. Right after he says that, it shows the fighters moving toward the DSII...you'll notice that only about a handful are left. But then again, that handful is more than what remained of the Imperial's have billion TIEs (in exaggeration, of course). And I had now idea that Lando was suppose to die in the original script...it would have made things a little more believeable and far more interesting. Again, I still say it's all rooted in the Good Guys Have To Win Rule. SOCL: Putting the BE in BEAK.Read the Forum Rules - Welcome the New Members - Rebellion Reloaded - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igorimp Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 Yes, I agree - you can't go against the "Good guy" rule. I once remember watching a Hungarian movie which ended rather puzzling. It was a western and their was this Sheriff and a mercenary fighting a bad-guy outlaw. I was shocked ( to say the least) to see that the movie ended with the bad-guy winning. In the final scene, the mercenary was killed in a bar fight and the outlaw escaped the sheriff and dumped him into a frozen lake where he drowned (or frozen, whatever) and the ending credits rolled up. I was completly . So, in summary, the Good guys always win (unless the movie is Hungarian). As for Lando in the original script, the Millenium Falcon was supposed to blow up while exiting the Death Star - hence Han Solo's: "Bad feeling... like I'm not going to see her again...". Well, it's a bit , to know your rooting for the guys that will evenutally LOSE... Oh, well: what the heck: GO PALPY! GO SAURON! WE LOVE YOU!!!! There is only one life;There is only one truth;There is only one EMPEROR'S GRAND PLAN. By the way, the Emperor's not dead... he's just resting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOCL Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 So, in summary, the Good guys always win (unless the movie is Hungarian). I didn't mean to imply that the Good Guys Have To Win Rule always applies, but it generally does, especially in such things as STAR WARS. Sometimes it applies, but not after the good guys have a lost a good portion and come out victorious by a fraction of a percent. Do you get what I mean? It usually applies, but not always and my favorite movies/games/etc are the ones where the good guy doesn't win (or at least doesn't win 100%). SOCL: Putting the BE in BEAK.Read the Forum Rules - Welcome the New Members - Rebellion Reloaded - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scathane Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 I once heared the urban legend that up until the eighties every American movie had a 'happy' end (i.e., the good guy wins)... Allegedly, other endings were considered bad for the morale of American citizens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahled Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 You haven't seen 'Easy Rider' then Scathe http://www.jahled.co.uk/smallmonkeywars.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scathane Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 You haven't seen 'Easy Rider' then Scathe Sure I have... You might notice how I said it was an urban legend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahled Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 ...emmm..... http://www.jahled.co.uk/smallmonkeywars.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igorimp Posted June 11, 2003 Author Share Posted June 11, 2003 I don't know much about urban legends, but as far as bad endings are concerned, their is a WORLD of difference between the ending being NOT GOOD and being BAD. Let me clarify. If the movie/game/etc. is action, war or something that involves shooting and danger, there are usually GOOD GUYS and BAD GUYS. If the bad guys win, it's obviously a bad ending. If an ending is NOT GOOD, it's a third option - the ending isn't happy, but there are no bad guys in the movie to make it THEIR victory. For example, I would put "Das Boot" in this category. If you've seen it, you'd know what I mean. Another example would be "Godfather 3", which ends really sad, but all the bad guys are already dead by then, so who the hell wins?! Try putting that in a category! So, in conclussion, what I'm trying to state is the plain and very obvious fact that there are two kinds of un-happy endings. Personally, apart from the example I've noted in an earlier post, I've never seen a Bad-Guy-Victory type ending; but I've seen a few examples of the Un-happy type ending. But, in concession to SOCL (what's that short for anyway), I agree that Star Wars is just that type of a movie where ultimatly the good guys have to win. That is why I'm really looking forward to Ep. 3. It's supposed to be really DARK... There is only one life;There is only one truth;There is only one EMPEROR'S GRAND PLAN. By the way, the Emperor's not dead... he's just resting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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