Venator is out... Officially

[JanGaarni]

It doesn't fit because it got decommissioned and replaced by the ISD by the time this game starts.

That's why it doesn't fit.

 

So you got Star Wars, and not something else.

You would have gotten something else if it were to be in, much like SWG is something else, and not fully Star Wars.

[Juggernaut1985]

Avaris speaks truth.

[Avaris]

Jan, please. A-wings but no SSD? Interdictors....you and i both know that "timeline" isn't the reason for removing the venator....because their timeline is already flawed. And, as for ISD's replacing venators, I thought that was the point whole point of tech upgrades ingame. You'd start with one and slowly replace it with others. My thread was not about the accuracy of timeline. It has a broader point, so don't twist it. Avaris Out.

[Naja]

Complexity does not ruin gameplay. Inflexibility and imbalance ruins it...and pandering to a fickle RTS demographic who's just going to leave the game to collect dust in under 2 years after purchasing it is the surest way of ruining EaW's gameplay.

 

And I like Earth 2160! I think what ruined it for multiplayer wasn't the complexity as much as the imbalance (the Aliens are either hella susepctible to rushes at the beginning, or damn-near invincible once they can spawn Postomor Destroyers), and the bugginess of Earthnet, which has been somewhat alleviated now that Earthnet2 is online. I think it's great; too bad that Zuxxez had such an exclusive marketing policy and barely let the states know about such an awesome game.

[Grey Jedi]

I fully agree with Avaris on each and every point.

[Guest]

because it looks cool, it is cool it.......

 

that there is exactly why everyone fusses about the venator, if they had taken out something like the Victory class people wouldn't care as much

[Diesalot]

ouch, so the venator aint in.. another ship to add to the modders list,

1. to the people that say dont worry it will be modded in I say just think about what u are saying, before fast speed internet most devs would stuff any game they made full of units..look at supremacy (rebellion) that had a sh*t load of units and though it looked crap and maintained the essence of star wars and it did well even without any mods.

2. I think one of mentioned wishing that PG could be devs and publishers of EaW...will never happen but they can after their contract with LEC expires join steam and push their own games (unhindered by publishers greed) and we get games as the devs wanted to create them, this is sumthin to look foward to.

3. As for online petitions go; I dont know why no1 has mention this but if you want to make a point about this game....download it.

(point 3 is quite harsh and I wouldnt really recommend it as it hurts game devs but hey it had to be said)

[Naja]

It doesn't fit because it got decommissioned and replaced by the ISD by the time this game starts.

That's why it doesn't fit.

 

 

And the Acclamator remains? There is no sense of timeline in the game. *note* The comparisons I am about to engage in assume that canon units are chronologically determined by which movie they're first seen in, and not by what assumed event happened (so we first see Imperators in Episode IV, not "just after the Clone Wars," or we first see Mon Calimari Cruisers in Episode VI, not "after Mon Calimari was liberated." Etc).

 

Mon Calimari Cruisers (Episode VI), Acclamators (Episode II), A-Wings (Episode VI), and AT-ATs (Episode V) exist; yet no TIE Interceptors (Episode VI), B-Wings (Episode VI), SSDs (Episode V), or Venators (Episode III)?

 

Face the facts; they just plopped some units in with a "they're all from Star Wars, who gives a shit" attitude so that each unit would have a cookie-cutter counter.

 

Why else would the Rebels have Mon Calimari Cruisers in a game that supposedly takes place "between the end of Episode III and ends at around the time period of Episode IV" ? 'Well, the Empire should have the ISD researched by the end of it, so let's give the Rebels their own heavy cruiser so they can have a [direct] match for it.' Utterly lazy thinking.

 

And don't anybody repond with a "well, what if the Rebels did free Mon Calimari before the Death Star was destroyed? You don't have to rigidly stay towards the established movie timeline, ya know - we can change Star Wars history with this game!" retort. Besides the established fact that the devs have framed this game to take place within the Episode IV timeline (Death Star gets blown up, Luke isn't a Jedi yet, etc), selectively picking certain bits and pieces from different timelines isn't reinventing history - it's ill-begotten, inconsistent, and poorly-explained anachronism. If you truly want to change the history of a predetermined timeframe, stick to it, I beg of you. And should you feel the compelling need to make a change, do it intelligently and consistently with what the fans would want, and not half-assed, I again beg of you.

 

Fin.

[Diesalot]

man, for those of you who cant wait to play with the venator, dig up your copy of homeworld 2 and download the clone wars mod...actually download the whole warlords mod for hw2.

It based on a game that is 2 years old but to me (even without the music) does the whole star wars space combat perfectly, it even has Vong ships!!

[Grey Jedi]

man, for those of you who cant wait to play with the venator, dig up your copy of homeworld 2 and download the clone wars mod...actually download the whole warlords mod for hw2.

It based on a game that is 2 years old but to me (even without the music) does the whole star wars space combat perfectly, it even has Vong ships!!

 

That mods is awesome, for i'm simply awaiting for version 0.5. The current one lags too much on my computer after a while.

[Little.B]

But please, don't make it half starwars and half something else, so that it sells as many compies as command and conquer.

Yes... I can imagine the developer meeting:

 

A: "Hey. Lets create a game, whichs development process will cost thousands of dollars but which in the end only attracts a small amount of people!"

B: "...."

 

This game is not for starwars fans. It is for somebody else.

Right! It is for everybody! This game is also made for people that love to play RTS games and not only for those that now the exact numer of the SSD turbolasers, the length of C3-POs right arm and the color of Lukes underwear when fighting Vader in episode 5...

 

All succesfull RTS out there could also have more units. But why havent they all more then 100 units? Because there is no need for it. If you want to create a game that is fun to play and not to complex (so that it is easy to learn) you have to take away content. Every game starts with more content and gets rid off a lot of content in the development process. If they would have never told about the Venetor you wouldn't miss it. I promiss. The only thing you are pissed off is that it was in before and has been taken out.

 

What is the point in making a starwars game, if you complete change everything to have everything meet the "game's needs" ?

? Did they change Imperials to Orcs? Are X-Wings now Galactica Vipers? I don't get the point on "changing everything". They left out a unit. Indeed, that nearly everything.

 

And to all you "One unit doesnt make a game" sayers: How many favorite units must be excludded before it is ruined? 5? 7?

There are surely more then 50 favorite units which did not make it into the game...

 

I mean: I dont like the Venator that much, so I don't miss it. Does it make me a bad person? Am I not a valid Star Wars fan? Does leaving out the Venator really ruin the game? What info do you have to be able to judge this?

 

 

EDIT

All I want to say: They wont bring the Venator back in just because of a vote. Even if I think they simply run out of time. Why don't you just sit back and wait for the release. When you have bought the game and don't like it you have all the right to complain. But right know we don't know anything. So I think, to discuss a matter of gameplay we actually should have had played the final game. Perhaps the Venator is in, perhaps the Interceptor is. This would not be the first case of false information over the last months...

[noian]

Still, I'd like it in the game instead of having to download a mod. Thats why I added the links to petition to add the venator back in my sig. More=merrier.

You can have it as a tech(have to research it) or have the player find or get a venator tech or fleet by doing a mission or something.

[Avaris]

A: "Hey. Lets create a game, whichs development process will cost thousands of dollars but which in the end only attracts a small amount of people!"

 

Umm. That was my point. If they sit down and say "We have to change stuff to make this a profitable RTS game" then they shouldn't use the license. You can make a whole new license with all new units that do everything that you want in the game. But if you decided to use a license, you should stay true to it. That is my expectation.

 

Right! It is for everybody! This game is also made for people that love to play RTS games and not only for those that now the exact numer of the SSD turbolasers, the length of C3-POs right arm and the color of Lukes underwear when fighting Vader in episode 5...

 

See, I hear that a lot. "Its for everybody". My theory is that that strategy never works. I think that if a game uses a license but does not please its core fans, it will inevitably fail. I understand the need to make the game accessible to a larger market than that. But first please the fans and then make it accessible to all. I think both of those can be achieved. And please don't minimize the omissions and additions made in EAW by comparing them to Luke's underwear color. The complaint I made are valid ones, not ridiculous as you are trying to suggest.

 

All succesfull RTS out there could also have more units. But why havent they all more then 100 units? Because there is no need for it. If you want to create a game that is fun to play and not to complex (so that it is easy to learn) you have to take away content. Every game starts with more content and gets rid off a lot of content in the development process. If they would have never told about the Venetor you wouldn't miss it. I promiss. The only thing you are pissed off is that it was in before and has been taken out.

 

I agree. I for one do not want "every" unit. But this game fails to even meet standard expectations. If you compare the space or ground unit selection (ie. tactical selection) to that of other RTS's, you will find that it has less units than any RTS released in a very long time. Fewer than any command & conquer game, fewer than any of the galactic games such as pax imperium, and fewer than games such as homeworld. (If you go and do this comparison, to be fair to EAW, do not count any transport, resource, construction, scout or hero units). Just doing off the top of my head: EAW has 9 per side (Imp Space: ISD, VSD, Interdictor, Patrol, Broadside, Acc,, TS, TF, TB = 9). you have to go back to warcraft1 I think to find that few units per side. And with the grandness of the SW universe which now covers 6 movies, and extensive expanded universe content, that seems like it comes up short.

 

? Did they change Imperials to Orcs? Are X-Wings now Galactica Vipers? I don't get the point on "changing everything". They left out a unit. Indeed, that nearly everything.

 

Please don't spin. I used the word everything when clearly not "everything" was left out. Anybody reading this thread is fully aware of what was left out and what was added. Based on that knowledge, I feel that there should have been more starwars units than have made the cut, and that all the non-starwars units are completely unnecessary, even from a gameplay standpoint.

 

I would say the number of favorit excluded units is surely somewhat around... 100? I like the episode III Turbo Tanks. But they aren't in. I miss them. Can you see me cry? There are so many units out there. One more or less surely don't break you a leg.

 

LittleB, please! I am making very simply, accurate complaints and you are using creative argument techniques to dispel them. Nobody cares what Lukes underwear color is, and there are NOT 100 favorite units. You know that if we did a static poll asking "Please list your all time favorite space unit from the movies" that after several dozen people responded, there would be no more than 6-8 units named. And of those, half would not be in the game. Its that simple.

 

EDIT: I do not think making a petition will do anything. I was making a general complaint in the most appropriat thread.

[Naja]

LittleB: I think what Avaris is saying is that this goes beyond crying over spilt milk, concerning the loss of one unit (the Venator). Rather, we are pissed about the apathy that LucasArts is displaying towards its fan base, the quality and consistency of this game, and the Star Wars universe itself.

[Avaris]

Yes. Every time a new thing (ie. gamespy, ships, timeline, mod tools, broken promises, etc) comes up, everybody says "this one thing doesn't make or break the game". And they are always right. But they have added up to the point where there is reason for concern and a need to voice oppinion.

[Naja]

Absolutely, Avaris. Like we've been saying, it isn't this one removal that disturbs us as much as the general pattern we have been noticing: a very sh*tty one, at that.

[Juggernaut1985]

I'll admit first and foremost that I like gameplay alot more than realism but Star Wars is the one particular case that this just completly is disregarded in my mind.

 

Realism in Star Wars IS good gameplay. The ships doing what they can do, Units doing stuff they can do. But thats completly gone in EaW and to a large portion of us who like star wars with its complexity and depth, this game is simplistic, uninspired, and stomping on what we love.

 

And I agree with Naja and everything Avaris said, the game just isn't adding up to be great or awesome.

[deriko]

It's a shame you haven't even had the oppurtunity to play the game though.

[Avaris]

"You haven't played it yet" isn't really valid in this argument. Nobody has made any real complaint about unit scaling, balancing, graphics, sound, gamespeed, etc. Those are all things that have to be played to critique. However, one does not need to play the game to know the things that have been told to us.

[MasterTactician]

Hey guys... According to Gamespots recent Designer Diary 2, the Venator IS IN THE GAME!!! See the 1st of the four screens which clearly shows the Venator in the upper right corner exchanging shots with Rebel ships: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/starwarsrts/news.html?sid=6141818

As these screenshots are new as of TODAY, the Venator is almost definatly going to be in the game.

[deriko]

"You haven't played it yet" isn't really valid in this argument. Nobody has made any real complaint about unit scaling, balancing, graphics, sound, gamespeed, etc. Those are all things that have to be played to critique. However, one does not need to play the game to know the things that have been told to us. [end quote]

 

 

True, but we don't know how those things will affect the overall gameplay. Maybe the venater isn't needed at all in the game. Maybe the broadside is necessary for the empire in some cases. Maybe the population cap. is necessary to make a more strategic game.

So some things we have been told, but we haven't played the game ourselves to see how it actually affects the game.

[Garbageben]

@ MasterTactician

 

Sorry bud but the Venator has been cut according to LEC Rogue, who posted it the exact day that the preview with that screenshot came out. Until we hear otherwise just accept the fact that the Venator will not be in Empire at War.

[Xenomorphine]

What's wrong with online petitions? At least some sort of message is being sent out. If at least half of those who sign do indeed not buy the expansion en masse, then the financial dent will be noticeable.

 

"Hey, looks like nobody's buying the expansion."

 

"What? It's everything an expansion should be! Extra missions, a few extra features and some units."

 

"Well, apparently, there was this capital ship which we're putting in this one but was left out of the other."

 

"So... They're boycotting us for giving them what they wanted?"

 

"Uh, sort of, but it's not as simple as-"

 

"Ah, that's all crap! The obvious message is that players are bored with the game, so it's time to pull the plug on it and terminate our contract with the designers."

 

"But I don't think that was the message they intended us to-"

 

"Of course it was! Now do it!"

 

As you can see, the problem with messages is that they can easily be misinterpreted...

[Naja]

I think Lucas misinterpreted the message the very first time he substituted "Midichlorian" for "the Force."

[Naja]

True, but we don't know how those things will affect the overall gameplay. Maybe the venater isn't needed at all in the game. Maybe the broadside is necessary for the empire in some cases. Maybe the population cap. is necessary to make a more strategic game.

So some things we have been told, but we haven't played the game ourselves to see how it actually affects the game.

 

We're talking on two different levels here. We're not too concerned about gameplay, or unit balance, or any of those specifics, as much as we're focused on a broader level. Rather, we're concerned about what seems to be strong apathy on the part of LucasArts towards making this a quality game. For the past several months, it's been dissapointment after contradiction with those guys, and hense, with what we know, we have a right to feel slightly miffed.