What this game really needs.

[Deadeye31_pff]

I thought about this months ago but kept forgetting to say that it needed to be in. Delphi, if you see this either suggest this to the crew or let us know it's already in, it could be important.

 

I have had one great respect for Homeworld and it was the way you could fight a battle. Unlike a regular RTS where you used the move-attack order and click behind your enemy's base to get your army to automatically attack everything in its path, Homeworld's makers took the idea to space and came up with a ground breaking version of this old command:

 

the attack box.

 

if you've ever played Homeworld or Homeworld 2 you know that if you held the control button and dragged a box around the enemy, your ships would go after anyone in that box based on who they wee good against.

 

Here's an example:

 

I have a fleet of fighters, frigates and capital ships in formation moving toward an enemy fleet with the same configuration. In Homeworld, to ensure ease of use, they allowed me to just hold control and drag a box around the enemy and let go. Boom, the battle began.

 

fighters would automatically go after fighters they were good against, corvettes would attack other corvettes or fighter based on their specialty. Bombers would hit frigates and caps and frigates could slug it out.

 

The best part of the attack box was that the computer set the targets and your ships sort of knew who to go up against. It was just an incredible and realistic system and It really needs to be in this game.

 

please, Delphi, if this isn't ingame, suggest it as a last thing to code. I heard petroglyph wanted players to also enjoy the battle scenes and gave us that cinematic camera for that. With the attack box command from homeworld it would be so much easier to control huge multi-type fleets and with a single simple drag of the box we can then just sit back and actually enjoy our fleets pummelling each other.

 

I hope Petroglyph did this. The old style attack-move command just isn't suited to space warfare.

 

what do you guys think?

[Megajames2]

Lovely idea, I've never played homeworld so have never used this funtion, but it should be a must add for EAW

[chewieusma]

I prefer to be my own admiral and tell each ship where to attack and how to get there. I think it would be beneficial to have the computer take over and attack the enemy efficiently through maneuver on contact such when it's shields on one side begin to fade it exposes the other side to the enemy.

[Dorkthehunter]

I don't think so. The idea is horrible! This is a Real Time Strategy game! That would take away all the strategy of the game. You would build a fleet and then basically watch movies of it fighting other fleets. The video option in EAW now is sweet, but you are still controlling what happens. The best option is not always RPS(rock paper scissors)combat. Sometimes you need to change out of that to get the element of surprise. The idea should definately not be added in EAW. It would ruin the game!

[Deadeye31_pff]

actually, the attack box allows you to get a grip on what's going on. It's far too tedious to have to click on each kind of fighter or each individual squadron and tell them to attack. That is why they created the attack-move command for 2-D games.

 

In a space battle with dozens of squadrons of fighters, frigates and Capital ships, you need to look at the grand strategy more than the individual dogfights.

 

Here's a senario involving EAW if it had the attack box command.

 

I have a cruiser, 2 Nebulons, 1 Mk2, 2 corvettes and a gunboat. Fighters are 3 Y-wings squadrons and 4 X-wing squads.

 

I see a fleet of 1 ISD, 2 Vics, a venator and an Acclamator as well as 4 squadrons of bombers and 4 squadrons of Ties.

 

I first use the attack-box and all my ships go into battle. My cruiser goes to the left of the ISD so it can get a broadside going. Meanwhile my frigates and Mk2 will take on the other side's frigate. Bombers and fighters duke it out.

 

During the battle, While I watch and pray for a victory, I see the cruiser needs to retreat. At a glance, thanks to the control panel, I see that 2 squadrons of Y-wings are still here. I click on them by themselves and order them to hit the ISD. I can then go back to observing the action.

 

You can still do strategies even if the attack box is in. The reason there is an attack box is so that you can spend more time putting out little fires inside the chaos knowing your troops know who to attack while you micro manage a few little areas like a real general does.

 

It also prioritizes attacks. If the enemy has a reserve fleet by, let's say a Space station then your ships will fight only those inside the box out by the rim of the system. Then they will reform and await new orders unless attacked again.

 

by utilizing the attack box I also don't give the enemy a chance to attack my ships one at a time as all of their ships will be engaged.

 

besides, if you could crush the enemy's fleet either way would you rather just draw a box and unleash the dogs?

 

The attack box doesn't take away strategy it makes it more manageable to have multi-type ships in a fleet.

 

The alternative is: click on corvette one and go after this fighter group. then click x-wings and they go after that fighter group. then click a frigate and click on enemy frigate to attack that.

 

It's just so much more user friendly to have the attack box and spend the battle filling the breaks in the line. Generals have been using a type of attack box since the dawn of warfare, they tell their troops attack the men here and those men know to attack that position and no other.

 

the issue is ease of use, not strategy. if you still want to micro-manage go ahead, I'd rather actually enjoy the battle.

[Cain]

Topic moved back to the GD area - this forum is for feedbacking only existing known materials from eaw (No debates there). Not to mention that Delphi is usually in the GD area

[Deadeye31_pff]

I am very concerned with the way battles in the videos are faught. I have yet to see them use even the attack-move command let alone any general orders like rebellion had. I just don't want to have to micromanage men who should know what they're doing.

[Darth Vader]

more force powers, probably...

[Teradyn_pff]

more force powers, probably...

 

Huh?

 

What did you mean by that post?

[Duraik]

I don't think so. The idea is horrible! This is a Real Time Strategy game! That would take away all the strategy of the game.

 

Hi there... this is my first post.

 

Now to comment on Dorkthehunter: You are right, it is a real time STRATEGY game, but because of that, adding such a function like in HW makes it closer to being a RTS game.

Let me explain.

 

In militay terms, it goes top down:

 

1 Strategy

2 Tactic

3 Operation

 

so you see, if you have to concentrate on Micromanagement that would rather be a RealTimeTactical game, or a RealTimeOperational game. But since they call it a RealTimeStrategy game you should only be concerned about strategic (that is more global) decisions.

 

Yours,

Duraik

[Deadeye31_pff]

I agree.

[The Relentless]

Welcome to the forums, Duraik. Good first post and I agree.

[Gen.Vader]

always excellent to start off with a good post, and welcome, we just cant get him to shut up sometimes.....always blabbing about how to rid the world of dorks.....*sigh* such a strange one he is.....

[Dorkthehunter]

always excellent to start off with a good post, and welcome, we just cant get him to shut up sometimes.....always blabbing about how to rid the world of dorks.....*sigh* such a strange one he is.....

 

What? I am ridding the world of people with an IQ of OVER 30, that would not be dorks! Plus, the HW thing would make the game a make fleets and watch them kill each other and then make more fleets and watch them kill other fleets, while you sit back and relax. That is definately not strategy!

 

I am insulted by Gen. Vader's post!

[Darkmark]

Don't take any notice of him. He's being a hypocrite anyhow. *cough* 1044 posts.

 

I must admit the idea doesn't necessarily appeal to me, and I agree that it might get overused. I wouldn't enjoy playing a multiplayer game this way because it does take out any creativity on the parts of the gamers. Don't get me wrong, I'd like a good AI for the game, but I want to be able to play the game on my terms, not ruled and restricted by what the support AI chooses for me to take on. It does take the strategy out of the game, and while it may not be a clear cut strategy game anymore, without any form of it the game is no longer any fun. The strategy is what gives it that edge.

 

My opinion is that if you want to film it or just sit back and watch it, you add a replay feature. All the time in the world to take good shots and not at the expense of losing gameplay.

[Guest JediIgor]

This doesn't remove strategy. This optionally removes tactics. If you think it removes *strategy* you may want to actually scroll back up and read the explanation of strategy. An attack box would help you focus on the *big picture.*

 

When you have a fleet of 20 Imperial Star Destroyers, do you really have time to micromanage all of your 120 TIE squadrons? I think not.

[Foshjedi2004]

There isn't micro management in a RTS it is all Macro Management. That is why the units are clumped into squads.

[Guest JediIgor]

There isn't micro management in a RTS it is all Macro Management. That is why the units are clumped into squads.

 

When you have 120 squads and you're controlling each one individually that's definitely micromanagement. So clumping units into squads is good, clumping squads into task forces is even better.

[Dorkthehunter]

So what almost everyone is saying is that C&C, Total War, AoE, Warcraft, SWGB, BFME, ect. aren't RTS games. If Micromanaging isn't Real Time Strategy, then all the good RTS games really aren't RTS? Who wants to sit back, press one button, and watch your fleet battle another fleet by themselves without any of your interference. You might as well just auto resolve the battle, because that is what you are really doing, but you are watching it happen.

[SirNuke]

RTS originated from board/turn-based strategy games, only played in real time. The level of management doesn't affect whether or not the game is a RTS.

 

But in all seriousness, in RTSes the only commands you give during skirmishes are 1: attack a specific unit 2: use a special weapon/skill/spell/whatever or 3: retreat, if the battle isn't going well. Not very far away from simply watching the battles.

[Guest JediIgor]

So what almost everyone is saying is that C&C, Total War, AoE, Warcraft, SWGB, BFME, ect. aren't RTS games. If Micromanaging isn't Real Time Strategy, then all the good RTS games really aren't RTS? Who wants to sit back, press one button, and watch your fleet battle another fleet by themselves without any of your interference. You might as well just auto resolve the battle, because that is what you are really doing, but you are watching it happen.

 

Whatever gave you that idea? All of those games but Total War (why did you bring that game up along all those other inferiors? I can't understand) are RTSes *exactly* because they have micromanagement (although its possible to have an RTS without microm, most "RTS" have microm). Total War is completely different and it is I think blasphemy even to consider it an RTS. It's clearly a turn based strategy game with real-time tactics but it is *not* a real-time strategy, because the *strategy* occurs all in map mode which is *turn-based.*

 

Furthermore, Total War definitely does *not* have micromanagement. On the map level you control armies, and on the battle level you control *at most* 20 (or 16) units. If we had to control each soldier (up to 10,000 easily) individually, *then* it would be micromanagement. Don't try to bring up provinces because those have Governor AI options and they can manage provinces for you.

 

I consider this whole discussion moot if you people can't understand the difference between micro and macro. Please look it up in your local dictionary, I can't stand arguing with someone who doesn't know basic terms.

 

Last but not least, please understand that the words "Real Time Strategy" should not be taken word-for-word. The genre is certainly real-time, i.e. not turn-based, but most of the time there is hardly strategy. Usually games revolve around who knows the best order to build things, who is the fastest clicker (I wonder why starcraft pros measure their skill in eapm...?), and who has the best combat tactics. There is usually no strategy (Total War) involved. In fact, out of all the games I've played I think the only game that is a genuine (the name isn't misleading) "Real Time Strategy" is Knights of Honor.

[Deadeye31_pff]

if I may say something, I just wanted an attack-move command like all other RTSs had and thought the Homeworld attack box could be used for space missions.

 

Even in homeworld you aren't required to use it, but it is an option. if you want to micromanage your ships and come up with all kinds of complex strategies noone may even actually use, go ahead.

[Darth Plagueis]

It seems the only people who are objecting are those who haven't played the homeworld games and therefore don't understand the idea, first of all most RTS games don't use strategy they use tactics there realtime tactical games.

 

An attack feature would do wonders for this game because even the developers have hinted that half of this game is about watching your fleet/troops kick but and dook it out just like you saw in the movies.

 

Sometimes i get the idea that the developers for this game are somewhat in fear in implementing advanced features like those in homeworld for fear of the users own stupidity and to have there game attributed to homeworld which would make there game seem less in comparison.

 

It feels as if they are holding back something from within themselves or from the game.

 

Perhaps its Lucasarts who's the culprit.

[Dreayt]

hm

I think it would not be good if this attack box is added ...

i think it s only sense is to make it able to control BIG armys and empire at war hasn t showed very big fleets yet...

I don t believe it is this far plagiues, it sounds to curious

And this believe that the game is about watching it sounds silly

if it really will be no problem to defeat the  computer i will send the game back