Games All Designers Should Play

[Ghostly_Substance]

I'm ticked off at EA games since they had a falty patch which made me accidently delete the Battlefield 2 game.

 

Then Black and White 2 they had no multiplayer or skirmishes. Btw the Campaign lacked but had the B&W feel to it.

 

Well they make good games its just they RUSH them

[Guest JediIgor]

What is rung with EA ? I mean are they bad people ?

 

I know I don't post a lot but at least I have more posts than Brett

 

By the way since Brett has joined us in the NMA I asked Mike to take over the educational side in the NMA / training departament number 2 / maybe we can learn some or scripteing programming from him. I hope that he will accept.

 

Ismael, EA is widely considered as a slave labor sweatshop. Programmers routinely work up to 80 hours a week without overtime or extra benefits. It's been around in the news a few months ago, I believe a few people started class-action lawsuit against EA.

[Katarn]

> What this will mean for me ?

 

It's not good thing. EA is truely an evil empire (and not in a good way) Why do you think those former Westwood guys formed Petroglyph in the first place and either quit or never joined the EA-LA after they shut down Westwood studios? I'm not speaking on their behalf because I know they wouldn't speak ill of anyone. But rather I'm just letting the facts speak for themselves. JediIgor is also correct about the lawsuits against EA for illeagle work practices. That said I do have some good friends that work at EA and when I spoke to them at the last GDC they said that EA was trying to change how they do business. But so far I'm not convinced that they have changed.... As for me I'd never ever ever work for them . Sorry for the gloomy news Cain.

 

-Katarn

[Ghostly_Substance]

All I can give is the gamer view on this situation so my point lacks.

 

007 was fun but the stuff is not as good as you'd hope but still fun. Multiplayer lacks. Sometimes the game copied other movies such as moonraker and was called something else.

 

Battlefield 1942 lacked history content such as Canada teams and minor teams. Basically it was pro British, American, Russian, Japanese and nothing else. ONLY ONE CANADIAN MAP Seriously they should read up on more history books.

 

Vietnam was good only for awhile until hackers joined the game. It just died since the content lacked.

 

As I said they rushed Black and White 2 to hell. No Multiplayer or Sandbox mode. The Campaign is screwed to heck. Popularity is decided by buildings and not faith.

 

Battlefield 2 they could of just merged with the Special Forces. Also could of used less patches.

 

and Need For Speed lacks features and AI CHEATS, CHEATS I say. I had a Peugeut 206 for Underground and mission #40 the cars just boosted with unlimited NOS. I even used a upgraded car and still I lost. Then I reformated my computer and lost everything (even pictures).

 

But this wouldn't really go with your points since i'm a newless person.

[Cain]

> What this will mean for me ?

 

It's not good thing. EA is truely an evil empire (and not in a good way) Why do you think those former Westwood guys formed Petroglyph in the first place and either quit or never joined the EA-LA after they shut down Westwood studios? I'm not speaking on their behalf because I know they wouldn't speak ill of anyone. But rather I'm just letting the facts speak for themselves. JediIgor is also correct about the lawsuits against EA for illeagle work practices. That said I do have some good friends that work at EA and when I spoke to them at the last GDC they said that EA was trying to change how they do business. But so far I'm not convinced that they have changed.... As for me I'd never ever ever work for them . Sorry for the gloomy news Cain.

 

-Katarn

 

 

 

N000000000000oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I have the same feeling like Luke when Vader told him that he is his father .....

 

 

EA Vader:

.... Search your feelings Cain ! Why did you think that you want to create a mod publisher ?! You are trying to use the dark side for good ! Like me ! I am your father !

 

Luke- Cain:

 

..... I rather die ....... Nooooooooooooooooooo (*falls down into the abis)

 

Well then .... another challenge .... hmmmm ..... What if I convince EA to help moders ?

 

I mean we both have borg philosophies .... well see .... in time. I just need to device a new tactic.

 

For the moment I'm stuck

 

Btw guys I need some feedback on the NMA - the Nexus guys have gived up ? Especially from you Katarn

 

http://swempireatwar.10.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1305

 

Btw Katarn .... JediIgor is pretty stressed out that EAW is not modable. Mike said many time that it is and it is a lot.

 

On a scale from 1% to 100% can you estimate a number so he will understand that it is not a PR thing.

 

Thanks

 

PS. Can you PM me the David S's email (LEC-R)? I want to send him some questions for an interview as well as christmas greetings from PFF. Thanks.

[Cain]

Hey you are online

 

Do you have Yahoo Messenger ? Man I will love to chat about Producer stuff.

 

Anyway it seems that now since you are gone they decided to go for a demo.

 

http://swempireatwar.10.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1429

[Katarn]

hehe. Yeah I logged on breifly from work. I didn't have time to post any messages tho.

 

Sorry I don't have IM at work. But I did send you an invitation to join windows messenger.

 

p.s. Releasing a demo for a PC product is seldom a good idea. Here's why:

 

a) If it's a great demo then some people will think they have experenced all of the new & cool things and then assume that the full game will only be an extension of the demo. And they won't buy the game.

b) The demo isn't very good or is not tuned well due to the fact that the game isn't finished. People will assume that the finish game will also be un polished. And they won't buy the game.

c) The game will not run and is not compatible with the person computer or video card. Again this only happens because the game is not yet finished

d) The person love the demo and they are ready to buy it. The problem is that game isn't being sold yet. The person goes into the store and ends up buying some other RTS. By the time the game is released they forget about it or think of it as an old game.

e) A demo always takes time awaye from the real game. And the one month that it takes to make a demo could have been used to polish the real game

f) It's far better to release a demo 1-2 months after the release of the full game. At this point all of the above concerns are gone. And you can release a polished demo with bonus material and new content that even people that purchased the game already can appreciate.

 

 

-Katarn

[Cain]

I have to agree - but this rules don't apply to EAW.

 

1. The SW RTSs have such a bad reputation that almost all of the gamers don't plan to buy EAW. Its a freeking desaster if you ask me / I've been promoteing EAW on many sites and all that I got was sarcasm and stones. My only escape was that they were willing to give a try at something made by Petroglyph ... just that.

 

2. Even some fans have great doubts about it. JediIgor for example.

 

3. The EAW is comming out in February and most of the good RTSs will come out this year. The gamer needs to remember and plan to buy EAW.

 

4. All the gamers play demos and especially good ones.

 

5. EAW is in such a way structurated that you will know that you have just played a part of the game and not the hole game etc.

 

6. The last private demos at games conventions have shown huge positive responses from the people who played them ... but not the ones who just have just seen them.

 

 

This is what I think they think about the demo.

 

Btw I see you offline on the messenger - i got your invite - thanks. Also can you say some words in the NMA ?

 

"hi" will do or some wisdom about the game industry and mods - if you will have the time. I'm sure that it will help.

[Guest JediIgor]

I really like demos. I really do . Especially shareware. I bought Quake 1 and Doom 3 sharewares before buying the full games shortly thereafter .

a) If it's a great demo then some people will think they have experenced all of the new & cool things and then assume that the full game will only be an extension of the demo. And they won't buy the game.

Why would they think that? And why would anyone release a demo with *all* of the features of the full game? The smart thing is to release a small segment (at most 1/4th) of the game and release a really good segment that will leave people craving for more .

 

For example, the Quake 1/2 shareware episode (a whole episode!), or Total War only releasing a demo of the battle (not the conquest map). Age of Empires I didn't have the Iron Age and no random map or campaign (I got that one too!). If anything, a good demo actually makes people want to buy it more. Unless of course the game itself is bad. But if it's good, there's nothing to fear, eh .

 

b) The demo isn't very good or is not tuned well due to the fact that the game isn't finished. People will assume that the finish game will also be un polished. And they won't buy the game.

Solution #1. Don't make a bad game. Solution #2. Call the demo a beta (worked for FEAR ).

 

c) The game will not run and is not compatible with the person computer or video card. Again this only happens because the game is not yet finished

d) The person love the demo and they are ready to buy it. The problem is that game isn't being sold yet. The person goes into the store and ends up buying some other RTS. By the time the game is released they forget about it or think of it as an old game.

These two questions coincide. Release the demo after your game goes gold but before it's in stores. That way you are using the final code and once people download & beat the demo it will be available in stores.

 

e) A demo always takes time awaye from the real game. And the one month that it takes to make a demo could have been used to polish the real game

If the game is properly coded, is it really that hard to go into the data folder, delete 9/10 of all the files/textures/etc, disable campaign/whatever in the menu, and then release it? Nobody is asking for a "special" content like games seem to have been doing recently. I was quite content with Jedi Knight including the fuel tank level from the real game, and XWA including one of the family levels from the real game. There is no point to be like JKII and make a whole new level which doesn't really give you 100% honest taste of the game.

 

Just take some content from the real game and give the gamers a small sample.

 

f) It's far better to release a demo 1-2 months after the release of the full game. At this point all of the above concerns are gone. And you can release a polished demo with bonus material and new content that even people that purchased the game already can appreciate.

Bonus material? Refer to above, people who already bought it would appreciate bonus material for the real game. People who didn't can just as easily get their taste from regular content. Spending more time on the demo when you could be spending more time supporting the community with more content (i.e. Epic/Valve) is a surefire way to have the community die off quickly.

 

Furthermore, I don't believe it's a very good idea to release a demo 1-2 months in the first place. This is a great marketing trick, believe me, I know. Make a game that is way overhyped for its actual quality, then give people no way of trying the game without buying it (note that people will buy based on just preview hype), and then release after the game has been out for a while.. at which point all the stupid suckers have already bought the game (and you can't sell it back to EB/Gamestop anymore) and releasing a demo which only the people who doubted in the first place will play (and probably won't end up buying anyway, if the game is bad).

 

If the game is good, then momentum has been slowed down because now the game has been out in stores for a while and people will always tend to buy the latest & newest game over an excellent game that's been in stores for a while.

 

This would be acceptable in the 90s where the internet didn't inform us at every moment that a game has been released, and when stores didn't have the game the next week it came out, and when people weren't playing multiplayer the first day the game is out. But in the information age, making people wait 1-2 months for a game with potential gameplay of <10 hours is just unseemingly. People have such short attention spans that they might as well forget about your game after the hype train is over.

 

With that being said, here's a list of some SW games that I've bought because of the demos:

• Jedi Knight
  
• Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith
  
• X-Wing Alliance
  
• Shadows of the Empire
  

 

and some games that I completely avoided (most of which are ports):

• Battlefront II
  
• Battlefront I
  
• Galactic Battlegrounds
  
• Jedi Academy
  
• Rogue Squadron
  

 

Everything else SW that I bought (I'd say 99% of non-ports and just KOTOR+Episode1 from the ports) was because it was genuinely good or I made a silly mistake (Force Commander..argh). So if the game is really good, it's got nothing to fear.

[Katarn]

Actually we are in agreement. All of my concerns go away if you... " Release the demo after your game goes gold but before it's in stores. That way you are using the final code and once people download & beat the demo it will be available in stores." This is a good idea becuase once the game is in final submission stage 99% of the team is sitting on their hands waiting to see if QA finds a bug. This is the prime time to work on the demo and at that stage it is polished, stable and most importantly it's fun to play! And the demo can come out a week or two before the game it hits the store shelves. I said a month or two becuase that work well with Jedi Outcast and people that bought the full product could install the demo as if it was a mod level. And we saw a significant increase in sales too!!

 

btw: Three out of four games that you bought because of the demo were produced by me # Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith, Shadows of the Empire. And all three had a demo after the game was done but before the game was released. That's really my main point and it looks like you agree with this approach.

 

-Katarn

[Ghostly_Substance]

Well for a Demo we all know its just a taste of the game so we expect more from the full game. If the demo is good we will keep playing it until we get the game as I did for Battlefield 1942 and Battlefield 2. Also Rome Total War demo caught my attention but I got the full game when it was out for a long time. As long as the full game is good the demo could be anytime. AOE 3 lacked this tho.

[Cain]

Actually we are in agreement.

 

-Katarn

 

Wow I never seen Katarn giveing up so easly on the demo issue

 

Btw I do believe that the Demo will help EAW a lot by makeing the gamming community more aware to the game

[Cain]

Katarn help us!

 

The Nexus guys have bring out their big guns - it is their final offensive and even I .... don't think I can have a answer good enough to beat them. I don't have enough insight in the industry's stories, my enghlish is not good enough etc.

 

http://swempireatwar.10.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1305

 

I think the main reply offenive will be to trun arround their arguments and give our contra examples ... also we will need to be one step ahead to fully close the argument.

 

I'm lost - without your brain power and vision I'm not strong enough to turn this debate in our favor

 

So again I run to you - Help us Master Katarn ! Help us build a better future for the EAW mods.

 

They don't know your long experience in the industry so after you will strike in the debate maybe us will have the chance to close the flanks and finish this.(JI,GS,me)

 

Without your help the EAW moding community will forever be divided ... Now its the time.

 

My hopes are with you. Thanks

[Katarn]

I can reply to this debate. However, if I reply to this debate I'm going to fight him on all of the issues I disagree with but I'll also concede his valid points. I'll concede some points because for at least half of the issues he's right. (or at least partially correct) Much of the structure you have laid out for NMA is quite good but some of your structure could use some reworking. The warring I'm giving is that this would change some of the plans you had in mind. If you trust me to make the right decisions for NMA then I'll reply. If not then I'll stay quite and still quietly give my assistance on NMA when you guys need me.

 

And of course part of my message would be laying out the mutual benefit and advantage of working together in such a structure.

 

-Katarn

[Guest JediIgor]

Hey guys, I'd just like to inform you that I have replied to that thread with a "bs" pr/marketing post. As Katarn mentions, many of his points were valid, so I had to wing a lot of things on the fly. I hope the new "vision" doesn't disturb anyone. I firmly believe Katarn can do a better job of actually debating, drawing on his massive development experience, but at the same time I have to agree with Eville as to whether or not its a worthwhile debate.

[Cain]

I can reply to this debate. However, if I reply to this debate I'm going to fight him on all of the issues I disagree with but I'll also concede his valid points. I'll concede some points because for at least half of the issues he's right. (or at least partially correct) Much of the structure you have laid out for NMA is quite good but some of your structure could use some reworking. The warring I'm giving is that this would change some of the plans you had in mind. If you trust me to make the right decisions for NMA then I'll reply. If not then I'll stay quite and still quietly give my assistance on NMA when you guys need me.

 

And of course part of my message would be laying out the mutual benefit and advantage of working together in such a structure.

 

-Katarn

 

Yes this will be great. I think in a debate you always have to give ground and then to strike.

 

I do hope that you will manage to unite all the tribes under one goal

 

This is our main goal. To unite. Then produce excellent mods - faster.

 

Also its seems that the NMA people are starting to submit you mod projects for concept&strategy approval ....nice.