Legacy of the Force

[DarthTofu]

Luke is pushing sixty, isn't he? Han's even older at seventy something. He's what, thirty in ANH? It's forty years later- seventy years old. Shoot, they're really gettin' up there. It's nice to see that they aren't bothering to shoot at each other as much. Han just flies the Falcon most of the time.

[DarthTex]

Luke is pushing sixty, isn't he? Han's even older at seventy something.

Young whipper-snappers! They've got plenty of "life" left in them Tofu

 

What you haven't read is GL is transfusing his body with $ in place of blood, and he needs even more $. Greedy b@st@rd!

[SOCL]

Sacrifice is out in mass-market paperback now (ahem, TOFU), and Invincible comes out next week!

[DarthTofu]

Here's hoping Invincible doesn't suck. I'll likely pick up Sacrifice just for the sake of the collection (along with Fury and Inferno, despite my hatred for the novel Inferno)...

[SOCL]

For anyone who hasn't read any of the Legacy books and is interested, if you're just cheap and want a free book, Del Rey is offering Betrayal as a free download, as a PDF file, audiofile, Sony e-reader file. Even though I own the book, I'm downloading the audiobook for those long stays at airports. Here's the site:

 

http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/starwars/sw_legacy.html

[DarthTofu]

Alright, so Invincible has been out for over a week, now, and nobody's bothered to update this thread. (Major spoilers follow: You have been warned)

 

Jacen Solo is now dead. His death wasn't quite what I was hoping for- getting his in the heart is alright, I guess, but I was thinking it would be something a bit more... profound than the insane-amounts-of-violence deaths Denning has become famous for. That said, Denning did a good job with Invincible. Only a few points had me groaning, and they were few and far between. Those A Long Time Ago... sections had me getting a little bit emotional from time to time, and I have to admit that the jokes at the beginning of each chapter, while pathetic and tremendously stupid (Sort of like Kevin J. Anderson) had a good effect with making everyone remember how Jacen had warped into Caedus.

 

I also liked how Caedus died- with that last shadow of Jacen Solo poking through. When he lost his arm and didn't bother to replace it with the old one/a mechanical one I was decidedly perturbed by the lack of utilitarian logic, but I understood why he didn't get a robotic arm- too much like his grandfather. I wish a bit more emphasis would have been placed upon the Sith ring uncovered at Korriban, but it looks like that will be brought to light in Millennium Falcon when it comes out.

 

Speaking of the future, does anyone here follow Legacy at all? Roan Fell, leader of the Empire. Jagged Fel, new leader of the Imperial Remnant/Empire. Zekk seems to be dead, and Force sensitivity comes into the Fel family line somewhere... Anybody else think Jaina and Jag might get together? I was really hoping to see some little Fels running about after the New Jedi Order books, and let's face it- everything's cooler with the Fel family.

[SOCL]

Well put, Tofu. All in all, it was a great series, and, I believe, the best in the EU to date.

 

I have been more-or-less keeping up with the Legacy comic series and we get a lot of allusion in that direction. It seems rather certain that Jagged is either the emperor Fel I (perhaps not acknowledged as such until after his death) or the father of said individual. Then again, Fel I, II, and III need not be the father-sons and such and may in fact be uncles/cousins/the like. I doubt this'll be the case, but I have the sneaking suspicion Sue Rostoni and her mad-cap wizards of the EU already have the basics of what will happen from now until then mapped out, if only roughly. The appearance of Force-sensitivity in the Fel bloodline is very likely caused by some sort of coupling by Jaina and Jagged, though this isn't to say she ends up some sort of consort or empress--that just doesn't strike me as Jaina. In fact, the Force sensitivity may not enter the bloodline at all. In the case of Roan Fel, we may have a man adopted or not at all a blood-descendant of Jagged--perhaps the blood being adopted in to the family or brought in by some other means.

 

Yeah, lots of speculation, I know, but what else is there to do until the next series comes out? Besides, not having a direct line of descendants from Jagged to Roan is far more interesting than saying "so-and-so is the father of so-and-so, who gave birth to so-and-so, who became emperor..." That's terribly, terribly dull.

 

I hope this next book, Millennium Falcon, doesn't turn into this author-feels-nostalgic rubbish where they try to make it too upbeat, happy, and silly. I say, keep the dark and the dreary!

[DarthTofu]

I like dark and dreary (That's why I like Del Ray- they killed three major characters in the Solo clan!) as much as the next guy, but the characters need a bit of a break. I say let the next generation tackle a bit more of the next problem- give us a few Jedi vinnetes of some sort for a couple of EU years, and then let Han, Luke, Leia, and (*Sniffle*) Wedge pass on. They're up in their years, far too old to keep at it forever. Because I swear, if Luke shows up at some point saying, "When nine hundred years old you reach, look so good you will not, hmmm?" I'm going to get even more annoyed with Lucas than I presently am for Indy 4.

 

I'm not advocating a return to care-free, but maybe to something along the lines of what Rogue Squadron and Wraith Squadron had going- getting to know some new characters and expanding a galaxy that's been contracting due to character deaths like mad since the Vong war. Don't get me wrong- I love the experience of being afraid of who might go next, but you can get that without sacrificing OT characters or putting them at risk.

[Krytos]

I'm not advocating a return to care-free, but maybe to something along the lines of what Rogue Squadron and Wraith Squadron had going- getting to know some new characters and expanding a galaxy that's been contracting due to character deaths like mad since the Vong war. Don't get me wrong- I love the experience of being afraid of who might go next, but you can get that without sacrificing OT characters or putting them at risk.

I definitely agree there - something more light hearted has been needed since NJO on par with the Rogue Squadron series. In fact, that would have been perfect! A new Rogue squadron, led by ... damn, what's his name? Darklighter, Gavin Dark something. Dealing with the left over Vong, aftermath of that major war (such as rebuilding efforts), pirates, Peace Brigade and other traitors, small warlords trying to make their own kingdoms etc. etc. Nothing "major" with our old favourite characters or massive impact on the galaxy.

I REALLY liked the first book in the series, however, with what I've heard of plot line and now with the finale - I can't say I'm looking at reading the rest ... well, maybe some of the better books in the series. But, I've got to say the killing of Mara and Jacen really doesn't work for me, particularly the latter. I like the more "real" and "darker" approach of these series - but it's still a Sci-Fi series and is Star Wars.

 

You know, this has me thinking of a new approach for an RPG where we re-write the LotF series ourselves, kicking off where the first story stops

[DarthTofu]

You mean right after Betrayal? If anybody has a good overall plot I'm game. Summer's coming up, and despite my need to work about ninety six hour days to raise enough money for a second Euro trip my Senior year (*Raise da roof!*) I'll still have time to sit inside and get extra-pasty-skinned writing about Star Wars.

 

Did anyone else ever get the impression that Jacen was in the right throughout the series? That he was never really a bad guy, and that whenever he was portrayed as such the author was totally missing how the character was meant to turn out? I was rather frustrated with Inferno and Revelation because they both flipped the "Evil Switch" as I like to call it on Jacen. Revelation did it less-so than Inferno, but both still bothered me, because Jacen had never taken pleasure in anyone else's pain before- he had no reason to enjoy their pain. That was the whole point of him becoming a Sith- his was the path of sacrifice, and ultimately it was that one last sacrifice that achieved his goal for him.

 

My final verdict on Jacen is that he wasn't evil. He made some unscrupulous alliances, but throughout everything his actions were selfless above all else.

[Krytos]

Yup, right after Betrayal. I don't know much of the details in LotF, just the main plot from online sources. After reading Betrayal online, I checked the local library and two bookstores but they didn't have any in stock. After reading the plots and reviews I feel less inclined to actually read the entire series - well, maybe I'll keep an eye out for those that got good reviews.

SPOILERS FOLLOW, don't read if you don't want to know. But read for my opinion and what I'd have like the LotF to be like.

 

I really enjoyed where betrayal left us - old friends are new enemies but only because of bureaucracy, rather than a deep underlining hatred (I loved the scene with Wedge and his daughter where she tried to take him out (the first time) and then he talked to her and she reverted to a child, protective of her friends and family. That's the sort of battles I almost anticipated in the series, not very bloody - damaged "enemies" being let to retreat and leave etc.). There were the usual evil characters (Thrakan, Lumiya), but there was also the reality of Generals and politicians on both sides not wanting this war, and wanting a quick end - there wasn't the "kill the enemy" feel of the NJO (where it suited) and earlier Rebels vs. Imps (where it seemed to be used just to make Imps cold hearted).

Then the spectre of evil - dare I say a true phantom menace that has taken in long time goody goody Jacen bringing him to the verge of darkness and tipping the galaxy into darkness for their own greed. But, even better, is the fact that Jacen's darkness and lure towards the dark-side can only be described as justified. Sure, I remember reading that hostage scene and wondering why Jacen hadn't tried to persuade the hostage taker to give up more, rather than killing him and just one hostage - but at the same time there was a lot of good, the greater good, in his actions.

 

Things I didn't like in the LotF was how it tried to mimic the original SW story arc. Fallen hero/Sith ends up controlling the current government and turning it effectively evil. To me this felt cliché, old and used - though more to the point, in a time line that's been as turbulent and short as the SW EU, it felt too soon.

The continued use of old warships, planets (as if the galaxy is made of 50 planets) etc. is also a point of annoyance for me. I get why they do it (so that fans of the movie can relate to the books more), but it's annoying when they constantly bring back VSDs, ISDs, old TIEs and Y-Wings.

And the Mandalorians. Cool as they are, they're portrayed as being too über - from turning Jiana into an awe struck Jedi to their equipment. I get them being great warriors, but having technology that's on par with cutting edge military tech (tech that's funded and developed but countless worlds and species) and skills that make a veteran Jedi, that fought through the Vong war with god knows how many kills, weak at the knees is too much.

 

I'd like to see the plot revolve around Jacen and Jiana a lot - both faced with similar moral problems and both solving them, but with Jiana solving them the traditional way (with realistic pro's and con's) and Jacen with the Sith way (again, realistic pro's and con's - which I believe a few of the stories did well). The scene is set for this, with the galaxy trying to revolt under a false ideal. I'd like to see the GA struggle to deal with these military problems - not due to being met with an enemy of similar power, but more due to a combination of not wanting to be the Empire, cruel to their own people or make things worse. I don't see the need for massive military action in the series. The GA could mobilise one to three fleets to deal with the "threat", which would mainly be a standoff threat with occasional skirmishes (no massive fleet battles with mass loss of life or resources on both sides, seeing that at least in Betrayal it was obvious that neither side really wanted to fight and kill each other with the exception of a few characters. During the first blockade of Corellia there was mainly both sides testing each other. And when things broke down it was limited to a "relatively" small brawl. It was only at the liberation of Tralus that things got a bit ugly. And even there I felt like they were tamed compared to what they could have been.), presenting throughout the galaxy as the new Coalition instead of a Confederation (feels again like they're replaying Ep 3).

The purpose of the series is to sort of try and come to a conclusion about Jedi and Sith ideals, ignoring the history of evil Sith - who's right and wrong, or better yet is there a right or wrong? A twin dilemma played between the prominent twin force using Solos.

Then, a unifying evil presents itself - the true Evil that was illusively present with Lumiya. Where both force using factions can unite to fight, or not. But ultimately they're defeated.

 

I don't know, but after going through all of NJO and seeing how Jacen and Jiana turned out, LotF was a real blow - especially Jacen. Going evil, sometimes mad, sometimes justified and then dead. There was no gain out of the series, after it all finished the galaxy was united again and had a fewer heroes. It seems a waste (thus some of the reason I don't feel like investing in a series that overall appears anti-climatic if nothing really happens), waste of plot and a waste of characters.

I'd like Jacen to firstly survive and then do one of two things. He either takes his fight with the dark side and is brought back - like some many other Jedi have done. Or better yet, a real twist and working from the NJO's take on the force, he leaves the Jedi to start his own Sith league - except they're not evil, just interpret the force and how to act on it differently - like Vergerre (?sp) did and how Jacen was in Betrayal.

In the end we have a true legacy to the force.

[DarthTofu]

Here here! I liked the idea that Jacen was decent and that the Sith weren't evil- after some of Matthew Stover's arguments for the Dark Side I found myself wanting to turn to it. No offense meant to Aaron Allston, but his best work is behind him- I could really tell that he was trying to copy what Stover did in Traitor and the novelization of episode three. Maybe I was supposed to, what with Ganner Squadron and all that- it seemed like a tribute to me.

 

I would actually have preferred to see Jacen kill more Jedi in "bend before they can break" battles. This thing was a Jedi affair over a galactic affair, and it wasn't portrayed as such. Sure, Jacen needed to take over the fleets and stuff to influence the galaxy, but he didn't have to go blasting Bothans and such. Jedi who were so convinced that Jacen must be evil because he's a Sith, and so strike out on their own, without Luke's approval, might make for an interesting third party. Granted, we have no real assorted Jedi Knights lying around except Zekk, Lobacca, etc, so we'd need some new ones.

 

Wow, I started writing this short post at 11:00 and finished at 2:33 AM. Thank you, messaging services...

[SOCL]

I think that was the idea, Tofu, but whereas you took it to mean the Dark Side wasn't evil, I took it all to show just how evil the Dark Side is, capable of more than just the blatant evil of Force lightning and planet-destroying superweapons, but rather is more devious and manipulative than shown by Palpatine and Vader, who I took to be "honest Sith", if you will--Sith who are open about their apparent evil.

 

SPOILERS FOLLOW

 

I actually believed Exile was the series' high point, while Sacrifice was, despite it's importance, the worst of the books. And the way the series ended... Well, it made sense: the final battle between Jacen and Jaina, but...well, what the hell? The political situation was far from resolved, and what about Niathal? And Daala as GA Chief of State? If ever these three letters have been appropriate, it's now: WTF? Still, I enjoyed it. I would certainly like to see an eBook or two that concentrates more on the political settlement, maybe using Niathal as a perspective character, or Daala, but as it stands, it was still a very strong series--the strongest of its kind in the EU, I believe.

 

Oh, and was anyone else bothered by the lack of mention of Turr Phennir, Supreme Commander of Confederation forces, by anyone other than Allston? I understand that each author uses his or her own favorite characters (Allston: Wedge, Corran, Tycho, Syal; Traviss: Fett & the Mandalorians; Denning: Tenel Ka & the Hapans), but I think this sort of dragged down the series, most of all with Traviss and her Mandalorian/Fett irrelevant-and-inappropriate subplot. I think they should have agreed on a greater limitation of characters, providing only for cameos for the favorites rather than centralizing them. In truth, I think Allston served this cause best; yes, he used his favorites, but it never felt like they were driving in a different or awkward direction than the central part of the cast.

 

I have more to say, but recently I've more and more lost interest in being articulate over much--write it off as laziness.

 

I might be interested in a LOTF fanfiction/RPG, but I won't be available for much of anything for most of the summer, except for weekends--I'll be on sabbatical at the University of Virginia studying Latin. I hope to actually contribute more, though delayed entries to the Resistors RPG this summer...

[DarthTofu]

Bona Fortuna, SOCL. As a person who just passed a very easy Latin II class I doubt that I can help you, but if you ever feel the need to ask about any of the declension endings- I'm your man. First through fifth are locked in my head!

 

I would have preferred to see a Luke vs. Jacen battle. And you know what? I wanted Jacen to stick with his old green lightsaber blade. He didn't perceive himself as evil, and I think that he refrained from getting a mechanical left arm in order to avoid emulating his grandfather. So why would he call a red blade a "proper" one?

 

I agreed about the whole Daala thing. She's been outside of the series for so long, and then she just suddenly pops back in? No. Sorry.

 

I, too, was disappointed in the lack of character arcs continuing across every single novel. Only Jacen/Caedus, Luke, Leia, Han, and (toward the end) Jaina showed up on a regular basis, despite Denning's use of Alema (Who Aalston was good enough to kill for us- though I really wish he'd have killed Zekk or Jag in the process), Aalston's use of Wedge (Wedge needs to go ahead and die. I'm sorry, it hurts to say it, but he's far too old to stick around for much longer. Focus on his awesome daughters a bit more), and Traviss's infamous use of Fett and the Mandaloians. If the other authors are going to introduce characters that will recur, everyone ought to make use of them. What ever happened the Pennir? Phennir is one of my favorite Imps, no lie. And where was the 181st? The 501st got references, but not the 181st? Come on!

 

I also wanted a bit more info on that Sith Lord on the asteroid and how he was tied to Jacen/Caedus. What was the deal there? Hopefully Millennium Falcon will explore that.

[DarthTofu]

Bona Fortuna, SOCL. As a person who just passed a very easy Latin II class I doubt that I can help you, but if you ever feel the need to ask about any of the declension endings- I'm your man. First through fifth are locked in my head!

 

I would have preferred to see a Luke vs. Jacen battle. And you know what? I wanted Jacen to stick with his old green lightsaber blade. He didn't perceive himself as evil, and I think that he refrained from getting a mechanical left arm in order to avoid emulating his grandfather. So why would he call a red blade a "proper" one?

 

I agreed about the whole Daala thing. She's been outside of the series for so long, and then she just suddenly pops back in? No. Sorry.

 

I, too, was disappointed in the lack of character arcs continuing across every single novel. Only Jacen/Caedus, Luke, Leia, Han, and (toward the end) Jaina showed up on a regular basis, despite Denning's use of Alema (Who Aalston was good enough to kill for us- though I really wish he'd have killed Zekk or Jag in the process), Aalston's use of Wedge (Wedge needs to go ahead and die. I'm sorry, it hurts to say it, but he's far too old to stick around for much longer. Focus on his awesome daughters a bit more), and Traviss's infamous use of Fett and the Mandaloians. If the other authors are going to introduce characters that will recur, everyone ought to make use of them. What ever happened the Pennir? Phennir is one of my favorite Imps, no lie. And where was the 181st? The 501st got references, but not the 181st? Come on!

 

I also wanted a bit more info on that Sith Lord on the asteroid and how he was tied to Jacen/Caedus. What was the deal there? Hopefully Millennium Falcon will explore that.

[SOCL]

Well said, Tofu! I also agree that Zekk ought to have died in that brief re-touch with the Dark Side he had just before Alema Rar's death. In truth, her character, though creepy and at times cool, was mostly a nuisance that should have stayed in the dark depths of the Dark Nest trilogy and left to rot. Lumiya was a very, very nice touch, but I still feel like they didn't make enough use of her, someone who very easily could have had much more face-time and played a much larger role in the events of the series. The fact her death meant nothing to me--and not a bitter nothing, like "It's time for you to die" nothing, but nothing nothing--is telling of a lack of development. Here, I can't blame Traviss completely, even if Lumiya (along with Mara!) died in the same book and with the same lack of emotion. I do blame Traviss for the lack of art of their death and just how utterly matter-of-fact it seemed (rather like the rest of her writing, in my view), but Lumiya really wasn't being used to the full extent of her character from the start, so when her death happened, it kind of happened at me and not to me, if you catch my meaning.

 

He didn't perceive himself as evil, and I think that he refrained from getting a mechanical left arm in order to avoid emulating his grandfather.

Well, he did mention he admired Anakin Skywalker--I think that was in either Bloodlines or Tempest--so I wouldn't quite associate the lack of a mechanical arm to that. Rather, to me it seemed to echo of the whole "pain is strength" bit of the Sith, something Jacen took very seriously, though not phrasing or thinking of it precisely as I worded it. Since the entire series has sacrifice as a central theme, the loss of an arm and then the denial of new one fits eloquently. The lightsaber thing didn't bother me terribly expect for the fact it's become so stereotyped and so incredibly predictable. I agree; he ought to have stuck with his green blade.

 

 

And now something that has been grinding at the back of my mind:

The continued use of old warships, planets (as if the galaxy is made of 50 planets) etc. is also a point of annoyance for me. I get why they do it (so that fans of the movie can relate to the books more), but it's annoying when they constantly bring back VSDs, ISDs, old TIEs and Y-Wings.

I couldn't agree with you more, Krytos, at least, initially. I got the thinking, though, and then I developed what you might call an "explanation" for this use of apparently old technology. As it goes, in the real world the basic design of say warships has hardly changed from the time of the HMS Dreadnought; granted, they're run differently and have vastly superior technology now, but cosmetically, little truly has changed in comparison with, say, the ships Columbus used to cross the Atlantic or Sir Francis Drake used in his day. Why? Simply put, at a certain point you max the effective design and, in many ways, hit a "perfection" point where the design is the best and can be changed very little. Just compare destroyers from the U.S. Navy and the Australian Navy, or the Royal Navy, or just about any other modern navy, and you'll see what I mean. Designs change little, but new technology is added, so the evolution of warships is very, very slow.

 

The same goes for aircraft. Yes, we have advanced from what can be summarized as paper-and-sticks with an engine during the First World War to jet engines in the modern day, but what has really changed? Two wings, give-or-take two tail wings, a nose, engines, wheels or skids... Not much. The design is upgraded, but not changed. Aren't convinced? The best example, I think, lies with the venerable B-52, the U.S. Air Force's long-range strategic bomber, which was designed in the late 1940s and has been in service since the mid-50s. And you know what's going to happen? The Air Force is going to continue using them well into this century until there are aircraft which are flying on 90+ year-old airframes, and are considered fully functional. So where's the change? Oh, it's everywhere, but it's still the 1950s B-52. The insides are stripped, the aeronautical equipment is changed for the "glass cockpit" bit, computers instead of gauges, GPS--all of the luxuries of today, but it's still a B-52 Stratofortress.

 

And then there's the actually new stuff. Look at the U.S. Navy's newest line of aircraft carrier, the Gerald Ford-class: it looks almost exactly like the Nimitz-class before it, which look almost exactly like the classes before that. The fact is, the "perfected" design has been struck and thus it's kept.

 

But this also has a great deal to do with the nature of the conflict being fought. Since the end of the Second World War, the United States has been prepared to fight with offensive capabilities, thus requiring a large number of aircraft carriers to initiate "force projection", as well as the capability to move and transport equipment and personnel across the globe between 36 and 48 hours. That is all reflected in the way the military of the United States is designed, and it's the reason the U.S. Army is sending everyone in circles as they change the design of the Army to reflect the way it fights now and not the way it wants to fight or the way it used to or is used to fight, thus were borne the Brigade Combat Teams as the central "building-block" fighting formation of the U.S. Army, downsized from the division as the central fighting level (and relegating the division level to a more administrative structure with the characteristics of an adaptable task force formation rather than an organic, static one).

 

Now look at the Galactic Empire. What sort of war were they fighting? A war of conquest? Well, maybe it would appear to be so, but who are they conquering? No one. The Rebel Alliance does not amount to conquests; it's internal strife that is being fought using anti-insurgency tactics. What does this require? An ability to send heavy, modular forces to a location with the capabilities to remain on-site for a lengthy period of time, but still be capable of withdrawing at a moment's notice. This means you need air superiority (i.e. fighters), ground forces, and space forces. What's ideal for this? The Star Destroyer! The ISD and the VSD, specifically. For all intents and purposes, the Empire is fighting a defensive-style war against the Rebel Alliance, while the rest of the time it patrols its systems. With the treaty between the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant, nothing changed--the Imperial military was tasked with patrolling its space. So, when the time comes to act offensively, the Empire is going to be using the weapons and equipment it had for those purposes, and the best those are ISDs, VSDs, etc. The ships we saw used in the Clone Wars were very blatant offensive-capable vessels, the Venator-class with its inordinate carrier capabilities, the Accalamator-class spewing personnel on the battlefield--these are offensive weapons. ISDs, on the other hand, carry the troops necessary to subjugate or control certain locations with firepower both in the air and in space to back that--a wing of TIE fighters and the turbolaser batteries on the ship itself. The VSD is merely a reflection of the changing times from the Clones Wars to High Empire, showing a warship that is still oriented towards fleet engagements (reflected by its armaments and lack of ground troops on-board), while still capable of acting in a modular, autonomous role (i.e. troops, fighters, and "shore support").

 

I'll admit, though, I'd like to see a change in the technology, but I can see why its remained static for so long. Only the Yuuzhan Vong War changed this, reflected in the design of "pocket" Star Destroyers like the Bloodfin (in Revelation), but that war was unique in its disasterous character, going from a defensive to an offensive war in a relatively short period of time, leaving little room for technology to catch up and thus requiring the use of "everything ya got". If one examines the Legacy comics, though, one sees an Empire that is also transitioning from the offensive role to the defensive one, again, reflected in the design of the Pellaeon-class of Star Destroyer.

 

One thing that really irritated me, though, was this "Maw Installation Fleet" Daala brought out of nowhere. Where the hell they been hiding this whole time? The Empire no longer controls that particular facility--that was made clear in Champions of the Force and in mentions throughout the NJO. I sometimes think Traviss, being a "late player" to the Star Wars game, wants to "re-explore" and "rediscover" the parts of the EU she missed out on before joining on. Well, personally, she can shove it and keep her fetish fantasies to herself.

 

And last, a Super Star Destroyer? An Imperial Super Star Destroyer, no less! What the hell? The Imperial Remnant's supposed to be small--very small. In Vision of the Future, before the Vong War, they counted only eight full sectors, each guarded by only 13 Star Destroyers as part of Sector Defense Fleets, with 200 total Star Destroyers, placing only 96 Star Destroyers in the service of the centralized High Command under Pellaeon. I'm sure the Empire gained land here and there after the Vong War, areas they had liberated similar to the land the Soviets gained after the Second World War, but I have my doubts it was that much. The only in-universe explanation I can come up with is that the Dominator (the one Imperial SSD mentioned) is the same SSD Leia and Han noticed over Bastion in Destiny's Way. The Megador, for her part, seems to be highly modified and I suspect doesn't actually belong to the Empire, but may be a Galactic Alliance bastard with the forces that joined Jacen with the Empire.

 

So suspect that as the novels begin to approach the Legacy comics, we'll see a change in technology under the Empire, especially with Chiss-trained and reared Jagged Fel at the reins...

 

 

 

 

SOCL: Putting the BE in BEAK.

Boring Explanations And Korrections.

Consider yourselves BEAKed.

[Krytos]

From a fiction point of view I'm very much on the side of "if ain't broke, don't fix it ... just upgrade it", and from a novel point of view it'd be stupid if every series had a new range of warships. And addition is fine, it'd be ridiculous make a new warship every 10 years just because a new upgraded gun has come out. In fact, I'm getting annoyed at the constant change of somethings - there already at an XJ7 or 8 X-Wing...too much too fast. And new ships made in the NJO series seem to have disappeared as well. This Republic class Cruiser, Mediator, Viscount seem to have gone already - even though all 3 were used against the Vong successfully. Hell the Republic was slated as being a cheaper version of a Mon Cal Cruiser and the Viscount was the New Republic's Mon Cal equivalent of an SSD. But just because they don't score a mention doesn't mean they're not there

 

My gripe is that in the extended universe, or whatever it's called, there are ships that the New Republic built after years of being in power to suit their way of fighting and to get past problems in the current Imperial line up that they were using or the civi-turned-warships that they used. During the Black Fleet Crisis and after there was a whole range of new warships that got used - Nebula/Defender class Star Destroyer, Majestic Cruiser, MC 90, Warrior Gunship etc. etc. etc.

Come NJO, and subsequently the novels after, and apparently these newer and superior vessels have all but vanished as if never they were never there to start with (and continuing from my last explanation of keeping the original SW feeling for new people, I believe that the novelist probably didn't know about them either). At least, being a novel, you have the freedom to simply pop in another word and the antiquated ISD I that is apparently being used for the cutting edge Mon Mathma is really a cutting edge Nebula Star Destroyer

I guess in their defence I'd say most readers wouldn't know of these ships (which is kinda weird seeing as during the NJO series of novels being written there was a source book released for RP gaming with star ships and it has the Defender class Star destroyer and mentions a few other newbies)

 

As for fighters in the EU, that has almost worked flawlessly through the novel series. I completely got the X-Wings were still around, cheap, good and reliable. And that there were E-Wing and XJ X-Wings to supplement them with "top of the line kick-arsery". My complaint with the fighters .. actually it's just the bombers .. is the B-Wing being close to non-existent and that the ancient and heavily flawed Y-Wing still pops up (and not just in the hands of freelancers. Remember that in A New Hope it was old and in need of replacment) when there was the K-Wing Heavy Bomber which I don't remember reading about for a long time.

 

It's as if they were made and just forgotten, which doesn't work seeing that when they were written about they were considered substantially superior to their predecessor.

 

What's more annoying, I think, is that during the NJO series people who can really only be described as Star Wars nerds complained to Del Rey and certain authors (which didn't go unheard, they often got replies) about their errors and they still did it. The bloke who wrote Destiny's Way came clean and said had he known about the newer ships, he'd have written them into his novel(s) and that the sources he was given simply didn't have anything beyond roughly what we saw in the Original Trilogy. He also fed some "retcon" into the NJO series for his novel, saying that due to the brutality of the war the New Republic was forced to recommission old, derelict vessels.

 

At the end of the day, this is nothing more than a continuity issue that mature readers can simply think to themselves "No, this here is a typo. My SW nerd-ism has automatically upgraded you to better choice."

[DarthTofu]

I actually have a semi-plausible reason for the lack of B-wings. Look at the new XJ X-wings. They have a missile/torpedo capacity of nine over the original six. The E-wings carry sixteen proton torps. Fighters have become an excellent replacement for bombers, even the B-wing. These new ones can move quicker and carry plenty of missiles to blast the tar out of anything their superiors don't care for.

 

What'd the B-wing carry? Eight proton torps? And it was fairly susceptible for fighters. This new way works better.

[SOCL]

Krytos, my hat is off to you! A very BEAK-y post, if I do say so myself, worthy of mention in the BEAK Archives! I agree with you a 100% on all of this, but I suspected as much with regard to the matter of Destiny's Way, likely symptomatic of what has happened. I think that because of that they developed the "holocron" at LucasFilm (or whatever they call it) with Leeland Chee at its helm. It was probably a reaction to the sort of negative continuity feedback they received during the NJO. For the most part, it seems to be fixed, taking into account the retcons, of course. Then again, when we saw Daala appear on the scene with the what-the-hell Maw Installation Fleet, a Ventator-class included among them, that throws a lot of this progress through a loop, at least in my view.

 

I can see what you're saying about the fighters and bombers, Tofu. It's similar to the way the Air Force and Navy transitioned from having a fleet of devoted fighters and a fleet of devoted bombers (F-14 Tomcats & S-3 Vikings for the Navy; F-15/F-16s and B-1/-2/-52s for the Air Force) to multirole aircraft, like the F/A-18 Hornet and the F-22 Raptor, as well as the up-and-coming F-35 Lightning II. These aircraft are designed to fill the role of fighter-bomber, but without the sort of odd result we got with the F-117 Stealth Fighter, which turned out to be more a bomber than a fighter. Thus I think the Y-wing is comparable to the aged and decommissioned F-111 and the B-wing to the A-10. You're right, Tofu, the E-wing and the newer models of X-wing easily fill the roles of fighter-bomber with superior abilities to devoted bombers. Then again, you still need devoted fighter-interceptors, like the A-wing, and devoted bombers like the K-wing (seen briefly in Fury), they just happen to be less necessary than the venerable Es and X/XJs.

 

What do you guys think of the continued use of SSDs?

[DarthTofu]

I don't like 'em. They're far too much of a display of power, and are inappropriate for the level-headed governments in place, now. There were only a handful made in the first place, and the vast majority of those were destroyed. We had the Guardian after the NJO, and (possibly) the Megador. Now there's a new one that was wantonly destroyed at the start of Invincible ( I'll forgive it since you didn't eff up the rest of the book, Denning), and they seem to be popping up a bit too much.

 

It's put best in Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand: They just aren't worth the effort. Lusankya took up too much by way of resources, and so it was turned into a massive suicide-bombing ship. I say decommission the dang things and put 'em to work as parts in other destroyers. They tie up too much by way of personnel if they're going to be stocked fully- one ship is equal to, what, five ISDs in crew size? Kinda ridiculous if you ask me.

 

How about the blaster improvements? How about the armor improvements, too? I'd sort of like to see some more acknowledgement of the blaster-stopping armor that we saw in Betrayal, as well as ridiculously powerful blasters like the ones in Invincible (Power blasters?) to counter that armor, as well as older weapons being used by the resistance and failing against it all.

 

The Holocron was made during the NJO. James Lucendo mentioned using it for The Unifying Force. I think it was also available for his duology, but I don't know for sure.

[SOCL]

Oh, so I was mistaken about the Holocron. Still, I think it was a reaction to the complaints of a lack of continuity. Probably also to help the numerous NJO authors previously not in the Star Wars ring.

 

Well, as long as the SSDs are explainable, I don't have too much problem with them aside from the same complaints you mentioned, Tofu. The one we saw destroyed, though, I still hold is likely the one seen in Destiny's Way over Bastion when Han and Leia go to petition Pellaeon to bring the Imperial Remnant into the war. The Magador was in the Dark Nest trilogy and was being used as the flagship of the GA starfleet, but it appears to have been heavily modified with an inordinate amount of hangar-bays and ion engines.

 

But I agree with you wholeheartedly, Tofu: SSDs are expensive and useless in modern warfare, in the same way battleships are obsolete in modern navies. Their roll is better filled with numerous, smaller warships, which can swarm larger ships (look at the historic Battle of Actium in 31 BCE for a great example of this) rather than having this ponderous thing pulling along side another ship. Heck, one good shot from the enemy and your giant beauty is out, but if you lose a small cruiser or destroyer, regrettable as that is, you still have more to keep pounding away at the enemy.

[Krytos]

It's kinda hard to say whether or not SSD ships are useful or not seeing that there isn't a clear picture on their true abilities. The glimpses we saw in the movie didn't say much, except that like anything it can be taken out with an unexpected sucker punch during a battle. Novels and games portray it as being either cumbersome and useless, or a beast to be feared.

 

The Lusankya is a demonstration of the good and bad of such a vessel during the NJO. It wasn't deemed much of a war asset to the New Republic, seeing that it had a sub-par crew and wasn't used in the war of any significant note until Enemy Lines. When used in battle, it proved to be devastating due to its shear firepower and armour, and in the Borelias campaign it proved extremely valuable as a way to keep other vessels in the fight, thanks to borrowing materials from it (I swear, we'll put it back once we're finished), and as a big target. So overall, the SSD seems to be past it's used by date - like Tofu pointed out numerous smaller vessels are more capable of achieving the same goals, which would probably cost less as well.

 

At the same time the New Republic has produced two of their own Star Defenders - equivalent to Super Star Destroyers. The Viscount seems to be a Mon Cal equiv of the traditional SSD and the Strident more along the lines of an Allegiance. The Strident makes the most sense to me, filling in a role of great offencive firepower but not being a massive vessel that's trying to be all things at all times (ie. it's not going to be a carrier as well, a multi-role destroyer and the size of an island etc. etc.) ideal for big fleet/task force conflicts or protecting key worlds/installations and filling in the role of a battleship (but again, is it needed in the SW universe?).

The Viscount seems to be a newer SSD, but more focused on being a command and control vessel/carrier/Fleet centre point. But again, it seems like a bit of a waste unless it's thrown into an entire fleet (Thousand or so ships) battle as a decided centre point. Because otherwise a couple of carriers, plus a fleet carrier (usual centre point and C4i command vessel of a NR fleet) then some cruisers, frigates and destroyers would achieve the same thing.

 

At the end of the day, the SW universe isn't the same as our own where a real world battleship can be superseded by modern frigates and destroyers thanks to modern missile technology.

At any rate, the big ships that can take and give a pounding have proven to be a powerful adversary in SW and whilst their realistic and strategic point still seems lost when some modern Star Destroyers could be just as devastating, they'll be there to stay in SW where bigger is often better.

I guess the one thing that these ships do have is staying power, and if you drop one into a battle you're going to have to raise your game a lot to counter the ship - either with a small fleet worth of ships or your own big Bertha of a ship.

[DarthTofu]

Speaking of huge fleets of small ships- what's everyone's opinion on space battles? Do you prefer the battles that feature so many ships that it's all but impossible to keep track of everything, or the smaller battles with each individual ship identified and with a damage report?

 

I really liked how Aalston did things with the Zsinj fleets, pointing out Serpent's Smile, Red Gauntlet, Iron First, etc. during the battle with Mon Remonda and Mon Delindo (sp?) and other New Republic ships. It creates a more dangerous sense, I guess, despite the fact that in a massive fleet battle any of a thousand ships could blow one or more ships up in a heart-beat with mass fire.

[Krytos]

It really depends on situation. Smaller fleet battles allow you to focus on all the units fighting which makes for a nicer read. That being said, if the context of the battle sometimes means a massive fleet works better - imagine fighting for Coruscant with 30 ships a fleet ... it just doesn't have the same desperate feeling as pulling in as many ships as you can.

I remember having this feeling for one of the earlier NJO novels - the one with the Battle of Ithor. Both sides of the battle are carrying on about how important the fight is going to be and yet muster roughly 20-30 ships each. It kind of lost the impact, especially when the NR had Imperials ships as well. It wasn't like either side was bogged down at that stage of the war, and it just gave the over all battle a lack luster feel (I don't remember the writing of the battle being anything special either).

 

So, yeah, small tactical battle groups are cool but only when they suit the situation otherwise I'll be constantly thinking and wondering why there are so few ships now when we know there's a thousand more currently twiddling their thumbs

[SOCL]

I seem to have a similar memory about the lack-luster of fleet battles in the NJO. There were a few exceptions, but that was towards the end, and then only really starting in Star By Star in what I think was one of the best inch-by-inch battles in Star Wars over the Coruscant system. That was truly awesome. Another good one was the battle right after Bastion (the name doesn't come to mind) where Pellaeon was leading the entire thing from a Bacta tank, but that got kind of stupid (as did much of the Force Heretic trilogy, which seemed pointless itself) with the super-dooper-extra-secret-technology Dreadnaught being the key to the battle. A Dreadnaught? Old Republic technology is apparently still the bit that will save the day.

 

I think large fleet battles are simply difficult to write because inevitably you are either stuck seeing it from the perspective of a single (or few) characters or you get a mess of this and that happening without a coherent plot and lots of sparks and fizzles. Large fleet battles are better left to the staging that only a motion picture or motion picture-style shooting can do, like the Battle of Endor in ROTJ or Coruscant in ROTS, though I am still convinced the former was vastly superior to the latter, the battle over Coruscant suffering from a lack of plot, direction, and general coordination, making this sort of spurt-start-fizzle-spark I mentioned earlier. Therefore, in writing, unless incredibly skilled, I think authors ought shy away from large fleet engagements and keep them as (I hate to use this term) "fillers" that either occur between scenes or as backdrops, much as we saw in Star By Star, The Unifying Force, and emost recently in Invincible, the latter-most, if you'll recall, starting in the middle of a large battle but with attention paid to only a single (or very few) character (i.e. Jaina) and then later another fleet battle (the one with the destroyed SSD), but this time happening between scenes. The implication of large fleet battles in writing I think is superior to showing it because it allows the imagination to run and be, well, imaginative; additionally, it implies that there is much more happening in the background that we can't/haven't/won't see, making the struggle all the greater since it implies other battles of the sort have occurred "off screen". Showing a major fleet battle and messing it up, though, not only ruins the implication of other battles, but also ruins the notion of catastrophe in battle. I think Revelation suffered from this when Daala's "Maw Installation" nonsense fleet showed up out of nowhere. Traviss simply didn't pull off the large fleet battle well, and then to throw in nonsensical superweapons just...

 

Well, I digress.

 

I agree with you, Tofu, but would take it the next step to say that authors ought concentrate on detailed small-level engagements and not concern themselves with great catastrophic ones. The ones that spring to mind are the Allston one you just mentioned at the end of Solo Command (if I remember correctly), the Battle of Sluis Van in Heir to the Empire, the battle for the Katana fleet in Dark Force Rising, the Battle for Centerpoint Station at the end of the Corellian trilogy, and the Battle of Yaga Minor in Vision of the Future. It may sound like I have a Timothy Zahn bias, and perhaps I do for his earlier works, but I think he did a marvelous job of pulling off the low-key engagements of a few ships, but with the implication of something larger at work.

 

Just my two cents.