Legacy of the Force

[DarthTofu]

It doesn't have its own official topic yet, and now that we're on book seven, I think it should. Discuss the series, but be careful to state how far in you're going; I know that SOCL and I are both still on Inferno as opposed to the more recent Fury, so anyone in here runs the risk of spoilers.

[Darth_Rob]

I voted for the last option. I havent read any EU since Zahn's two-part book series, and the titles seem to have slipped my mind...

[Evaders99]

Depressing sometimes, even more than NJO. But there is a more mature feeling to these books. It doesn't feel like a kids story.

[SOCL]

My favorite novels since the Hand of Thrawn duology, Specter of the Past and Vision of the Future, and may even exceed my adoration of the original Thrawn trilogy. Quite possibly some of the best EU material to have come in years and years. I highly suggest it to all, and don't worry, there's no need to have read previous novels. The story is dark, though, quite dark and somewhat depressing, but that only adds to its awesomeness.

[ElvisMiggell]

I don't like them too much. It just seem wasted to bring SO much darkness to what was always an intrinsically good universe. I don't like how they're starting to kill people off and turn them much darker than ever they were before, and blinding moral compasses.

 

I also object to this whole releasing the occasional book as a hard back only for 8 months. Don't they understand how messy it makes my bookcase look?!?

[DarthTofu]

Ditto on the hardback thing, Elvis; I had to get Sacrifice from the library while I wait for the paperback. I got Inferno from a friend and I'm getting Fury from him when he finishes. Now, then, rant time:

 

(Warning: This rant goes through the events of Inferno and mainly focuses on bashing Dennings for the piece of crap that Inferno was. If you liked Inferno, like Dennings, or haven't read through Inferno, I suggest you not read the black text bellow.)

 

First off: The GAG. As SOCL and I have agreed on another site, Dennings makes them out to be horrendously evil and incompetent, totally different from Traviss and Aalston, both of whom got what the GAG is supposed to be when Traviss created it. The GAG is not inherently evil: Jacen is turning dark, and so the GAG is being used for worse things, but it is not, itself, evil. And it's far from incompetent or under-supplied. A twenty-something recruit with an E-11 threatens Leia at the start of Inferno. WHAT? The E-11 is Rebellion-era tech, and the GAG consists of 636 hand-picked soldiers. Who is so stupid as to pick a recruit for the secret police? You want folks who know what the hell they're doing!

And the evil thing: It's banal to have it be black and white like Dennings makes it. Suddenly Jacen is just totally the bad guy, 100%. NO! That is not what this has been in the last five novels, even after he killed Mara! Jacen is doing this because he believes it will bring peace, and he doesn't want to kill and hurt unless it's necessary for the overall good of the galaxy! Yes, he'll sacrifice a few to save many, but some of the crap he pulls is just retarded.

Next: Kashyyyk action. The hell didn't he destroy/capture the Kashyyyk assault fleet for before it launched? Yes, lighting the planet on fire forces Confederation forces to show up, but destroying the fleet significantly reduces the issue of angry Wookies whose forest you've just burnt that are now sided with your enemies. Not attacking the fleet was retarded, just like not targeting the fighters in advance.

Next: "Killing" Luke. He should have taken into account one major fact: He's writing a paperback. Luke will never, ever, ever die in a paperback novel- one can tell that right away. If you're going to fake kill someone, leave them fake-dead for at least the time between novel A and novel B so that we have to wonder! And why would Leia not know what it felt like when Luke died? Or Jaina, or Jacen? They all felt Anakin go way back when, they ought to be able to tell when someone is just cutting himself off from the Force.

Next: The shitty attempt to be Traitor. Never, ever try that again, Dennings. You failed epically with your roughly two page attempt to be the first third of Traitor. You instilled absolutely none of the feelings of the novel and none of the revelations it revealed.

Next: Jag and Zekk. They got screwed over in this novel when suddenly they both harbor a great desire to be with Jaina. Jag was uncomfortable working with her two novels ago, and nothing in Sacrifice suggested otherwise. The two aren't acting naturally at all.

Next: He killed Kam and ripped off Tione's arm and leg. What the hell, man? That was just a stupid "Oh, I'll kill someone else's character to try to make my novel seem better!" moment, like in Star-by-Star.

Next: The manner of Luke's "death." When did Jacen become such a proficient pilot? Luke and Jaina are the best of the best at piloting; Jaina and Luke are, in fact, probably the best pilots in the galaxy. And Jacen takes on both of them with no problem, forcing Jaina to blow up Luke's StealthX. Way to fail, Dennings.

Overall final complaint: Dennings tries to compensate for sucking by including horrible wounds for main characters in each novel. He scorches Jacen's kidney and rips off half of his scalp, he breaks Luke's leg, he blows off half of Tione's body, etc. If you want to be moving, don't wound characters physically: Wound them spiritually. Give us something more than "A tearful conversation convinced them that Jacen was now dead to them." Give us the conversation, and don't half-ass it like everything else I've read by you with the (barely) exception of Tempest!

It angers me to have discovered that Dennings could come up with this great concept and then Bork it up so horribly.

Edited December 16, 2007 by DarthTofu

[SOCL]

Tofu, shouldn't that be read through Inferno to Fury, and not to Inferno since that would mean one had not yet read Inferno...

[ElvisMiggell]

I'm so with you there Tofu. Some of these authors seem to be really getting away from the whole spirit of Star Wars.

 

I can't believe i'm going to say this, but i'm actually starting to think about not collecting the books anymore. They're just not fun to read now. Not the new ones anyway.

[DarthTofu]

Tofu, shouldn't that be read through Inferno to Fury, and not to Inferno since that would mean one had not yet read Inferno...

 

... My bad. My rage directed at Troy Dennings blinded me to my grammar for a moment there.

 

I'm so with you there Tofu. Some of these authors seem to be really getting away from the whole spirit of Star Wars.

 

I can't believe i'm going to say this, but i'm actually starting to think about not collecting the books anymore. They're just not fun to read now. Not the new ones anyway.

 

I'm still way too cheap to buy every last book, so I thankfully can use the library (apparently there's a large crowd I don't know about that loves these books on my little island, so the library has all seven that are out so far) to get whichever book I need... And friends who enjoy spending money frivolously.

I actually really, really like the ones by Aalston and Traviss, though; both authors have a firm grasp on what they're writing and how to write it well. They have believable characters, witty lines, clever parallels to our own world and such. Aalston has gotten a bit bogged down by details of late, but that's my only real complaint.

SOCL doesn't like Taviss making the Mandalorians out the way she does. I guess they're just made a bit too gay for him. (Check the "Behind the scenes" section) I personally like the Mandalorians, but hey, to each his own- I can understand why you might view what they do as being distracting, and from what I've gathered in the Round Robin interview at the end of Inferno she did sort of choose to adopt the Mandalorians into her writing- I don't think Del Rey specifically asked for it.

[SOCL]

Actually, I have no issue with Beviin and Medrit being gay--in fact, I respect Traviss much more for having the guts to include something that realistic in Star Wars. I actually find it adds a lot to the Mandalorian culture, making it unlike most super-macho-soldier-commando that reject anything non-heterosexual. Also, I don't actually have a problem with the Mandalorians, I just think they're out-of-place in the series, especially since the last Traviss novel, Sacrifice doesn't even include Leia or Han, aside from one scene meeting with Mara for the former and a mention for the latter. Further, Luke only becomes a true character in the last few chapters, the rest of the time we only get glimpses of him sleeping whenever Mara comes home. What the hell?! Those are among the most important characters in this particular series, so replacing their "screen-time" for Mandalorians annoys me thoroughly. I think the Mandalorian storyline is fantastic, but I also think it belongs in a separate series that runs parallel and might even overlap with the Legacy series. It just takes away, at least for me, from the greater part of the series since a reader might find themselves racing through the important scenes concerning Jacen, Ben, Luke, Mara, etc in order to get to the Mandalorian scenes, which devalues the important series scenes, especially since the Mandalorian storyline connects with the rest of the series minimally. And by the way Traviss left the Mandalorian storyline in Sacrifice, it's obvious Revelation will be nothing more than a soapbox to stand on in order to get her Mandalorian fetish out there, which vexes me more than you can imagine since it's the second-to-last novel, which leaves Denning (not Dennings, Tofu) and Allston the responsibility to actually ending the series.

[DarthTofu]

Not sure why I thought it had an "S" on it...

 

I was a bit confused by the lack of Han and Leia in Sacrifice as well, but I figured that was partly due to Taviss not having a storyline for them- I actually thought that Inferno might take place partly during the events of Sacrifice and focus on Han and Leia, but no such luck.

 

Granted, we really have gotten relatively little by way of news from Correllia of late. In Sacrifice Gejjen (sp?) was assassinated and a triumvirate was placed in command, but that's all we know. Maybe Correllia is being conspicuously quiet? Or maybe, as SOCL said, Han and Leia just got passed up for Boba Fett.

 

BTW: I wasn't suggesting that you'd find an issue with Beviin and his husband. You're a Roman/Greek enthusiast; that makes you pro-gay marriage is memory serves.

[SOCL]

BTW: I wasn't suggesting that you'd find an issue with Beviin and his husband. You're a Roman/Greek enthusiast; that makes you pro-gay marriage is memory serves.

I'd forgotten that once you were a Roman enthusiast, it means you have to be pro-homosexual marriage. Your "logic" never fails to amuse me, Tofu.

[Evaders99]

Fury leaves quite a teaser for the next book why the Mandalorians are part of the story (or at least one certain Mandalorian...). The book just seems to be set up for the finale though. Allston seems to get shafted here, mostly string out plot elements for resolution later. There is a touch of his humor, but Wedge, Tycho and the rest are just background characters.

[DarthTofu]

BTW: I wasn't suggesting that you'd find an issue with Beviin and his husband. You're a Roman/Greek enthusiast; that makes you pro-gay marriage is memory serves.

I'd forgotten that once you were a Roman enthusiast, it means you have to be pro-homosexual marriage. Your "logic" never fails to amuse me, Tofu.

 

If memory serves, I mentioned about a year ago a rather conservative friend who claimed to homosexuality led to the decline of Greek and Roman civilizations. You lashed back with a rather angry diatribe on the many, many reasons that was an invalid conclusion.

 

Furthermore, the only time I ever recall you saying anything negative about Greeks or Romans was when you said that the realism on the base Rome: Total War was rather off.

 

Going back to Fett: Do you get the feel that there's a "mini" trilogy within each author's three novels? For instance, Aalston is the only one who really touched on Wedge that much. By and large Alema is Denning's character (Aalston and Traviss have had to use her a bit, but for the most part they leave her alone, or operate her in the background). I feel almost like Fett is the one Karen Traviss develops within her own "mini" trilogy. I'll be interested to see what happens to Wedge and family in Fury when my friend finally loans it to me.

 

I sincerely hope Wedge lives (Nobody tell me if he does or doesn't or I'll have to kill you), though I was most frightened it would be his end back in Exile and, before that, during Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand when the Vong had him in their sights.

[ElvisMiggell]

It feels to me a bit like we're 'growing up' with Star Wars, like they're trying to make it darker as we grow up. It all seems very mish mash and hit and miss to me.

 

Harrumph.

[Lord_La_forge]

It feels to me a bit like we're 'growing up' with Star Wars, like they're trying to make it darker as we grow up. It all seems very mish mash and hit and miss to me.

 

Harrumph.

 

Yes, that's why we hate Jar Jar, while the younger generations loved it.

It's hard to impress an old SW fan.

[SOCL]

Sorry Tofu if I did indeed lash out before about the homosexuality and the fall of the Roman Empire bit. I had something a bone to pick about that and you happened to wander into my sights. I should have handled that a little more...professionally.

 

I agree, but I still think that Traviss is trying to lodge a square peg in a round hole with the Mandalorian/Fett subplot. It drives me nuts because it feels like she is using the series as her stump and not giving as much effort to the rest of the story. I can see, though, how you might say each author has their own cycle within the series...and yet, Allston didn't overdo it with Wedge and Tycho the way Traviss does with Fett, nor did Denning shove Alema Rar and Tenel Ka down our throats--the latter two are very relevant to the story, and former two were hardly main characters in their own right. In any event, all of those characters interacted with the story based on the events happening to the main story and not on their own, in no way interacting with the rest of the story, as the Mandalorian/Fett subplot does, especially in Sacrifice. I still think Traviss should have shoved it and requested as concurrent trilogy for her Mandalorian fetish--it's good, but doesn't belong in Legacy.

 

On a similar topic, Traviss does something similar with the Republic Commando series by starting out with a Republic Commando-centered storyline and then twisting it to be a Mandalorian/Null ARC plot. Eck...

Edited January 1, 2008 by SOCL

[DarthTofu]

It's all good, man, not to worry.

 

Revelation might make the Mandalorians all-important or it might make you hate Traviss for sticking them in despite everything, I don't know. It'll bring us back Sintas Vel (hopefully) and Fett will finally try to kill Jacen and possibly die in the process. It'll be interesting to say the least. And, for the record, it still comes out on my birthday. Perfect timing? I think so.

[SOCL]

It's all good, man, not to worry.

Eck, that first line should have read "Sorry, Tofu." I went back and did minimal corrections.

 

Revelation might make the Mandalorians all-important or it might make you hate Traviss for sticking them in despite everything, I don't know. It'll bring us back Sintas Vel (hopefully) and Fett will finally try to kill Jacen and possibly die in the process. It'll be interesting to say the least. And, for the record, it still comes out on my birthday. Perfect timing? I think so.

Ironic and utterly interesting. It'll be a nice way to celebrate your birthday, at least--I'll be sure to remember that as I drool through the back, despite what Mandalorian subplot Traviss might shove down my throat. It's not that I dislike the Mandalorian subplot, I just think it's out of place here. Unless Traviss finds a way to truly weave that story back in with the rest of the overall plot (and I don't think the way it was done in Bloodlines cut it), then I'm going to be disappointed--in the story, but, I hate to say this, that LucasFilm for once didn't keep an author on a tighter leash.

 

No matter what, though, this series is not going to end happily--no matter what. Too much has been lost and sacrificed, so even if good does prosper over evil, it will still be at best a bittersweet, Pyhrric victory, not the fanfare at the end of A New Hope or the special edition of Return of the Jedi. The Galaxy is spinning out of control, now, and it can't be fixed in two novels. I know a lot of fans don't like it because it's a little darker than their accustomed to from Star Wars, but I think it's about time. The sad-then-suddenly-happy plots of the earlier EU material simply didn't work out, not even in the "dark" NJO, which still followed the standard pattern of crisis-then-everything-is-fine. Or maybe it's just because I'm a fatalist.

 

On another note, I'd really like to see LucasFilm cave in and give Traviss her own Mandalorian book trilogy, just to shut her up. Okay, actually because I'd like to see what she does with it. All things considered, her stories are great, it's just... Well, you know...

[ElvisMiggell]

Having caved in and bought Sacrifice Inferno and Fury, i have to disagree.

 

I think the series is massively weakened by the fact that the authors don't really bother to weave their stories together and use each other's characters. I think it's a fundamental flaw, and it didn't work in the NJO books either. We need to get back to individual authors writing their own trilogies/duologies.

 

Traviss should be using Wedge and Denning Fett and so on. Otherwise it just lurches from book to book with no real continuity.

[SOCL]

Having caved in and bought Sacrifice Inferno and Fury, i have to disagree.

 

I think the series is massively weakened by the fact that the authors don't really bother to weave their stories together and use each other's characters. I think it's a fundamental flaw, and it didn't work in the NJO books either. We need to get back to individual authors writing their own trilogies/duologies.

 

Traviss should be using Wedge and Denning Fett and so on. Otherwise it just lurches from book to book with no real continuity.

Thank you, Elvis! Someone understands what I'm saying!

[DarthTofu]

I felt like Fury tried to tie into the other two books, but beyond that the others haven't tried as hard as they should have. I've got another question: Whose lightsaber is Jacen/Caedus using throughout Fury, where/when did he get it, and what color is it? Ben has Jacen's saber from Inferno, doesn't he? That's why Jacen was building a new one, I thought.

 

Now, at least, we get to see where Fett comes into play with everything- if you read the preview of Revelation, that is. If you didn't, this'll give you a quick little spoiler (of the first chapter): Jaina is going to Boba Fett for teachings on how to kill Jacen in order to do so in a way Jacen won't expect.

 

I'm really disappointed at the lack of deaths of major characters in these books, by the way. Sacrifice took out Lumiya and Mara and Jori Lekauf, yes, but Fury took out only Alema Rar, who was a nothing character so far as I was concerned- just some random little "I think I'm sexy but I'm not, I'm really a crazy Sith" character. There wasn't a whole lot that could be done with her.

 

Now, seeing as Jaina is starting to go dark again, it would be pretty sweet if we'd have lost Zekk or Jag on Lumiya's old asteroid home; that death would push her toward the dark side that much more and be something of a "fighting fire with fire" situation, where you don't know if the galaxy would even be safe after Jacen was gone.

 

But no, it just had to be another parallel of "Jacen is being Darth Vader-esque." Could be so much cooler if I were helping to come up with the plot... I could do it so much better than Dark Journey did.

 

...[/grumbling]

 

...[Resume complaining]

 

I feel like Jacen is getting more and more out of character as he gets more evil- there was a nice gradual drift going on, but then with Inferno it was like somebody threw the "evil" switch on him, and now he's just a full-out asshole. Before he stuck to his Sith ideals as Lumiya taught them to him; use them for good, kill for the greatest good, etc. I got the impression from the first four or five books that Lumiya really wasn't evil, that maybe Jacen was doing the right thing to bring the galaxy back from chaos. Granted, Lumiya's instigation of the war leaned toward it working out in a far different way, but Vergere's hand in it all convinced me that perhaps she was not so bad and that Jacen was not being bred to be a monster.

 

Cue Inferno and the evil switch- Jacen is making irrational decisions. Fury's killing of the Lieutenant chick I guess I can accept- Jacen was in such a downer mood that he would likely be pissed enough to just kill somebody for the hell of it. The random acts of cruelty to Ben, though, those I don't feel like were in character for him. He'd need to condition Ben, yeah, but somehow I think he'd have copied Vergere's method a bit more closely- shut Ben off from the Force so that he couldn't figure out what was going on and would have to relearn it, Jacen's way.

 

I did, however, like the inclusion of Kral Nevil's son being dead and Jacen now being so far gone that his empathy for Nevil was non-existent. He could only relate to him on a purely mathematical basis because he had become so enthralled with his daughter.

 

I don't know whether anyone else noticed or not, but at one or two points toward the end of Fury when Jacen/Caedus is rushing back to try to keep Allana with him, his name is changed back from Caedus to Jacen, and it's told from his perspective. Significant, or just Aaron Allston screwing up? I don't know, but maybe it shows how his humanity returns to a certain extent while he's going after his daughter.

 

... Wow, long post on my part...

[SOCL]

I think the fact Lumiya is dead and Jacen is losing control of the situation are fueling him to be increasingly more evil.

 

I agree, though, Zekk should have died in the asteroid, or something, but it seems clear now Zekk is out of the picture concerning the relationship between him and Jaina.

 

Alema Rar, though, was indeed an annoying character and it was about time she died. I'm just glad she died under Allston's authority and the way she died, unlike Lumiya's sudden and utterly insignificant death at the end of Sacrifice.

[DarthTofu]

Revelation comes out in five days. This thread must come back to life!

[tacoJoemeru]

I tripped across a few spoilers for it.

 

They weren't good ones.