Can Vader absorb/deflect Force Lightning?

[Sinister]

I was thinking about this awhile back and wanted to see what some of the people on this board thought about it.

 

There seems to be two camps when concerned with how Vader defended himself from Han Solo's laser blasts in ESB. One side claims he absorbed/deflected the blasts using the Force, while another claims that it was deflected due to the material his glove was composed of. The majority of people I've come across seem to believe it was a Force ability which defended Vader.

 

This ability to deflect energy also appears in the PT, where both Yoda and Count Dooku deflect and/or absorb Force Lightning. This leads me to wonder if Vader can do the same. I'm sure everyone's immediate thought is that if Vader could then why didn't he defend himself against the Emperor's lightning at the end of ROTJ? That almost answered my question without any doubt, but then why didn't Yoda absorb/deflect the Emperor's lightning when he first walked into his office in ROTS? That blast knocked Yoda clear across the room. And even thought he absorbed/deflected some if it earlier, it looked as though Yoda was having trouble doing it.

 

Is it possible that Vader to some extent to another can absorb/deflect Force Lightning? If he can, why didn't he when he turned on the Emperor? Here's some ideas I had:

 

- He couldn't defend himself against the level the Emperor could dish out.

- He didn't want to, and wanted to sacrifice himself out of guilt over his past sins.

- The absorb/deflect ability is one that involves a hand/s, even a mechanical one like Vader's. Vader's remaining limb was not available as he used it to lift the Emperor.

 

What do you all think?

[Darth_Rob]

As far as ESB goes, it was definitely the Force. I don't think he would have glove armor strong enough to deflect blaster shots.

 

As far as the Force Lightning goes, I think that a Jedi Master could deflect or absorb it using the Force. Of course, if one is caught off guard, he may not have time to react properly. Now, it is my opinion that Vader was not a Jedi Master. The Emperor and Yoda definitely show more power over the Force in the OT than Vader ever did. Now Vader was a Knight for a long time, but I dont think the Emperor ever wanted him to gain too much power, for fear of being overthrown. Thus it was the traditional Sith Lord/Sith Master relationship, with the Emperor being the master (with Jedi Master control over the Force) and Vader was the Lord (more like a Jedi Knight, with limited control over the Force, and relied more on his lightsaber than the Force in general).

[Mad78]

He definitly used the Force to deflect the blaster shots in ESB.

 

I guess the reasons he didn't absorb the blast in ROTJ are the following:

1) The Emperor's blasts may have been to hard to block.

2) He had just had his bloody hand cut off! I don't know about you but i would find it hard to concentrate in such a situation.

[DarthTex]

2) He had just had his bloody hand cut off! I don't know about you but i would find it hard to concentrate in such a situation.

But Mad the "hand" was mechanical, he shouldn't have felt anything

 

I would say it would be more like when someone is spraying water using a garden hose, and they get picked up from behind, the water keeps flowing and it's just go every where getting anything in its path wet. Vader picks up Palpy when he's unleashing Force lightning, and it's just pouring out going all over the place, including Vader (he makes a great lightning rod being part mechanical)

[DarthTofu]

He was very much prepared in ESB, so that might have something to do with it. Also, if you read the novelization of RotS, Stover mentions that, with the loss of his limbs, Anakin Skywalker also loses immense ability in the force, because the force is life and now Anakin has that much less of it.

 

I think it may well have been beyond him, as evidenced by his skull showing beneath the armor.

 

It could also have to do with how tired he was. In later books Luke becomes increasingly tired as he draws more heavily on the force. Vader, being, what, fifty-something, now? would have to draw very heavily on a handicapped force supply when battling Luke, who is already a skilled fighter with a lightsaber. Add to that how he just got his hand chopped off, and he could just not have had the energy to deflect/absorb the lightning.

 

I also remember a part in I, Jedi where Corran tries to absorb a telekinetic blast from Kyp and fails to absorb it all, flying back against the wall. It may be that when there's the much power coming out that fast it's impossible to absorb it all.

 

@Tex: Vader's hand was mechanical, yes, but there are biomechanical nerve endings and such for limbs in the movies- IE Luke's hand. It stands to reason that Vader might have gotten an upgrade or two, as well as some feeling in his limbs. Also, that could have caused other bits of him to start malfunctioning- he seems to be breathing more heavily at the end of the fight, but his breathing is mechanical. Damage, perhaps? Granted, it could just be the machine compensating for more work being done, but he never started breathing more heavily when fighting Obi or Luke in the fourth and fifth movies.

[DarthTex]

@Tex: Vader's hand was mechanical, yes, but there are biomechanical nerve endings and such for limbs in the movies- IE Luke's hand. It stands to reason that Vader might have gotten an upgrade or two, as well as some feeling in his limbs. Also, that could have caused other bits of him to start malfunctioning- he seems to be breathing more heavily at the end of the fight, but his breathing is mechanical. Damage, perhaps? Granted, it could just be the machine compensating for more work being done, but he never started breathing more heavily when fighting Obi or Luke in the fourth and fifth movies.

About the heavier than normal breathing on Vader's part; I always thought that was due to damage from Palpy's Force lightning frying some of the mechancial sub-systems in his suit. Supposedly it acted like an "iron lung" along with other stuff. I'm sure Vader gave himself an upgrade or two along the way. As you like to mention (about books that is), in The Rise of Lord Vader, he wasn't too happy with the "quality" of the equipment Palpy gave him. Of course Palpy plans everything down to the finest detail & did it on purpose

[Sinister]

I too believe that Vader does have some feeling in his artificial limbs. Maybe it is not quite as fine as the real thing. However, when Luke hacked off Vader's hand in ROTJ, Vader screamed in pain.

 

I also think the idea that Vader was winded after his battle with Luke is a good explanation. That being combined with the fact that he had just lost a limb and the pain that goes with it, plus sounding like he was having more difficulty breathing could explain why he didn't/couldn't defend himself from the lightning.

 

On the subject of The Rise of Darth Vader, you would think that the Emperor would give Vader better equipment. After all, he wanted Anakin because of his awesome Force potential. I guess Palpy had to keep him on a short leash though.

[Darth_Rob]

Palpy definitely had to watch Vader. As Palpy says in RoS, there is the Sith tradition of the student eventually overthrowing the master. Palpy was the Emperor of the Galaxy...he's not gonna want to lose that power any time soon. And Anakin had such great potential that he would probably be an eventual threat. Palpy probably saw Anakin's injury as a blessing, and used it to curb his power, thus safe guarding his own throne.

[Mad78]

And the fact that he saved Anakin only made him more loyal to his new Master.

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

I remember reading a little kid's book way back in grade school. I think it was called The Glove of Darth Vader. The premis behind it was that Vaders right glove/gauntlet was indestructible. Whoever found the glove, keeping in mind it went down before Palpy, would become the next leader of the Imperial Forces.

[Mad78]

I remember reading those! They were crap.

[JediHunter]

Personally I don't think Vader's ability to deflect/absorb lightning was called into question during RotJ... since he didnt have the opportunity. I'll admit I haven't seen it in quite sometime so I don't remember the exact series of events, but I would think even if Vader could deflect or absorb.. it wouldn't be linked to his hands. Plus Vader was mechanical.. so I always thought that since he is mainly metal he acted as a large conductor and just channelled that stuff through his body.. and I always thought that the lightning screwed his systems and hence why he was breathing hard and dying at the end. I think the only reason he deflected or absorbed the blaster shots in ESB is because his hands are metal. I dont think... (as evidenced by later transgressions) that George Lucas thought that hard about it.. and just thought it would be cool and menacing for Vader to deflect the shots... and when i watched ESB for the first time ever.. that was my only thought really.. ("Oh.. hes metal so he can do that.") you never really learn that much of the force or its capabilities.. (which I think we elaborated on only after the films for various reasons)

[Darth_Rob]

I agree with the whole "Vader's suit is mechanical so it acted like a conductor" but heres my question. Is Force lightning actually electrical, or is it just a massive amount of Force energy that, when channeled, simply appears as lightning?

[DarthTofu]

Interesting....

 

This shows a rather odd arm for Vader, as exposed by the force-lightning. Perhaps something useful can be gleaned from the image?

[Darth_Rob]

Its definitely mechanical, with the two prong/poles and all...

[budious]

Yeah, he absorbed it real good when he tossed the Emperor down the power shaft. Electricity + Metallic Suit + Sophisticated Medical Electronics ... I doubt the poor lad could even run subwoofers in the back seat of his Tie Fighter because of the high magnetic fields associated with such devices. He'd probably be banned by the FAA to fly domestically because he would interfere with flight control systems. If being dark lord of the sith didn't work out for him, Vader could always become a spokesperson for a wax and shine product. Shiny metal suits need lots of care and attention, just imagine the dents and scratches. This is off topic now so I'm shutting it down, but you got the idea.

[DarthTofu]

*Blows off dust* So according to the wookiepedia article on Darth Vader's armor, he can't use Force Lightning because it would fry his delicate circuitry in his armor. Thus, Vader can not, apparently, absorb Force Lightning (at least, not through his limbs. If it hits remaining flesh, it's anybody's guess)

[Darth_Rob]

I still like my theory, that Vader was just not "master" material like Yoda and Palpy. The physical and emotional damage he suffered after facing Obi-Wan greatly diminished his once-promising Force-potential, and Im sure that Palpy did not fully train him due to fear for his own life.

 

I also recall reading one of the novels (I cant recall which, though it might have been Shadows of the Empire) where Vader is trying to breathe without his helmet. He removes it, and attempts to concentrate and use the Force to help him breathe. However, he is unable to, because he needs to remain angry in order to use the Force, and he cannot stay angry for long. I believe he was thinking about his confrontation with Obi-Wan, and blamed him for his state, but couldn't keep the anger long enough. I know this doesn't contribute much to this thread, but I thought it was an interesting piece of info none the less.

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

I'm nearly certain that it was, in fact, Shadows of the Empire.

[mandalore-the-inquizitor]

any one know wher i could get that book

 

But i think if vader Tried the oppisite to draw on serinity and compassion it in ther some wher use the lighside vader you may live

[Sinister]

Well, I think I may have found an answer to this question. Only problem is, do we consider it canon, or not.

 

I was at the bookstore last night and I came across the new Star Wars RPG manual. In it, it lists the Force powers characters can use. Two in particular caught my eye.

 

One was called "Negate Energy" (or something like that). Basically, this allows a Force uses to negate energy from a weapon, such as a blaster or lightsaber. This section had a picture of Vader from ESB deflecting Han's blaster shots.

 

Then there was another power called "Rebuke". This stated that a Force user could deflect or absorb Force attacks.

 

So, if we go by this and consider it canon, it could be safe to assume that Vader has the ability to Negate Energy, but not Rebuke.

[Krytos]

Well, in the new trilogy the midget showed that you can absorb force powers - which would be "Rebuke". However, he also showed it wasn't easy and the little fella seemed also to be completely focused on the attack from the old lightning rod*

I don't recall there being any other proof of the Negate Energy thing in the movies except for Vader's talk to the hand stunt.

 

If you go into the EU, though, both have been used numerous times. The "Rebuke" gets mentioned a few times by Jacen Solo in novels, not by any particular name (whilst I get listing a force power by name to explain it and easily know what it is, it kind of steals away from the whole mystical element of the Sith and Jedi using the force if they've got attacks that feel like they're out of Street Fighter and learn them as such. Surelly a force user would think of a way to use the force and mold it to that? Semantic, I know).

And if you have played the Dark Forces games you'll know about Force Protect (Negate Energy) and Force Absorption (Rebuke).

So, neither are new concepts, and I'd take it as you want. I'd personally say we know Vader can Negate, but wasn't really in a position to show if he could Rebuke ... damn, the Dark Force's names are easier.

 

*For those who didn't follow - midget was Yoda, lightning rod was Dooku

[Sinister]

The way I look at it is that is how the game decided to divide up abilities and label them. Lucas probably didn't put that much thought into it. As far as canon goes, Negate and Rebuke could really just be the same thing.

[DarthTofu]

According to I, Jedi Vader actually absorbed the energy from the blaster bolts. How that worked with his prosthetic hand, I don't know. I always sort of assumed that it was an armor thing until I read that, but I could be wrong. In fact, I don' remember if that use of the "Talk to the Hand" (Nice title, there) stunt was ever said to be a force absorption technique. You were just meant to assume it, since Jacen did it in Betrayal. Back when he still was Jacen, and not a badass Sith Lord that should have survived for much longer and killed more Jedi and- right, Darth Vader.

 

I say that he had a remarkable degree of Force power, and could exert it over his limbs when he had to/wanted to, but was unable to do it that last time, because he wasn't focused enough. That, or because Palpy was just that strong. Remember, Yoda had trouble with Dooku, who was way weaker in the Force. It stands to reason that a weakened Anakin, who was out of practice, would get his skull fried by Palpy, who still had full Force Power flowing through him.

[Guest Scathane]

Isn't it a bit nonsensical to compare force lightning to one single blaster shot? I mean, the amounts of energy released - regardless of their being of the same nature or not - must differ immensely... Imho, it would be the same as asking why a personal shield (as found in multiple games) can handle various blaster shots but is rather useless with regard to force lightning...