VA Tech Tragedy & Gun Debate (from world conflicts)

[DarthTex]

On the flip side of this argument, many, many people own guns and use them responsibly. If guns were allowed to be publicly carried by every citizen and by students on campus, someone could have pulled their gun and shot this punk dead. It has happened in the past when a good Samaritan uses a gun to stop someone else from shooting without cause.

 

I can sort of understand where that's coming from, but would you truly want to live in a society where that would be the case Bud fella!

 

Excuse my European outlandish, obvious *recoil* at the concept, but would you genuinely feel comfortable walking past other people armed with a gun in the street? Is that the society you want your future kids to grow up in? Life doesn't have to be warfare.

I lived most of my life that way J. It's not nearly as bad as most people think. You have to remember that Hollywood emblishes things for their movies to make money (I'm talkin' about the good ol' cowboy days of the ol' West).

 

On another note, you guys had about 30,000 gun-related deaths last year, we had under 200. Even with population consideration's, this is a dramatic contrast.

I don't know where you got that number from J, but the latest statistic for the US (the average for the whole country) is 5.5 murders (all kinds, not just guns) per 100,000. At the current population that's approximately ~16,000 per year. Even if they were all murders by guns, more people die from drunk driving in the US (~17,000). The murder rate in the country is actually starting to decline (on average). Of course, some places are worse than others.

 

I believe in Switzerland (maybe Mad could verify this?) that it is mandatory for every household to have a weapon. What's their murder rate by gun?

 

The latest "craze" down here is home invasions. A couple of hoods show up at your house/apartment and kick down your front door (police style) then rob/beat/threaten everybody there and take all of their stuff. Some poor 81 year young lady didn't have to be pistol whipped . It's not like she was a big threat. Those are the types of guys that need to be strung up on a hot day over a fire ant mound . Another group was trying to kick down the door and the home owner got his shotgun. He even yelled at them that he had a shotgun. Did they run away ... no, they kept kicking in his door. After one blast from the shotgun they ran, well two of them did. The third guy only made it down the street before he went to see St. Peter at the pearly gates. The other two were apprehended shortly thereafter. Texas now has "The Castle" law, meaning your home is your castle. Anybody who comes into your home to commit a crime against anyone in the home or to property inside the home, is free to use deadly force without fear of being sued by criminals, to defend their families and property. Me, I say "lock & load, baby" You want something bad enough, go do some hard work like everybody else and purchase your stuff.

 

I hope you read this & remember Tofu. I know you're still just a "boy", but grow some and think for yourself and not what your academia teachers spout. Until you become a victim, you won't truly understand.

 

[/rant over] Sorry about that, it just gets the blood boiling at times

[budious]

Texas Chainsaw Massacre?

 

You might be lucky to get shot. There are so many common devices that can be used to commit murder. 1,100 students in the U.S. commit suicide on campuses annually. 2,000 die from binge drinking. In the past year at my University, one student committed suicide and two were murdered off campus. One was shot, the other, a female was raped and strangled to death. Her rapist was her boss that had been living in her apartment for the past week. He used a gun to commit suicide after taking her life with his hands. Shit happens!

[SOCL]

Jahled, certainly it's safe for everyone to have a weapon. Aside from the obviously strange circumstances of Switzerland where they keep weapons indoors for military use only, the rest of the world's individuals should very obviously carry firearms! Look at Somalia, Afghanistan, and Iraq: everyone there has their own firearm, and we all know that those are the safest countries in the world!

[Jahled]

Jahled, certainly it's safe for everyone to have a weapon. Aside from the obviously strange circumstances of Switzerland where they keep weapons indoors for military use only, the rest of the world's individuals should very obviously carry firearms! Look at Somalia, Afghanistan, and Iraq: everyone there has their own firearm, and we all know that those are the safest countries in the world!

 

Yay for world safty!

[Darth_Rob]

Hey Tex, isn't it legal in Texas to carry around a loaded gun on your person in public? I thought I remembered hearing that.

[Defender_16]

Most people here don't really bother buying guns because of the hassel you have to go through to get them registered. Really it's pritty much just farmers or Annual deer hunters that have guns.

The same can't be said about the larger cities of course where crime and violence of all kinds has been on the rise.

 

Woah, couldn't belive this when I saw it on TV.

 

(Don't hate me for this observation pls. I'm big on logistics and planning.)

 

But anyways on CNN they were saying something to the effect that the guys was shooting people three and four times.

At thirty two people (dead) that means the guy had to have been carrying between 90-130 rounds on him. That's a hell of a lot of weight!

Eight clips anyways if it's high capacity magazines or twice that many with a smaller gun.

 

Where did the guy keep it all?! Or for that matter buy that much ammo at once?

Edited April 18, 2007 by Defender_16

[budious]

Most people here don't really bother buying guns because of the hassel you have to go through to get them registered.

 

What hassle? If you don't have any felony records you wait a week and get a gun. A friend of mine has a 9mm glock, two shotguns, and sks assault rifle. Another friend from high school, his dad was a gun collector, he had a small arsenal of different ak-47 models (6-8 or so) plus tons of other crap. Maybe if you live the suburbs and have your private security guarding your neighborhood you've never a gun, maybe a taser? I live in rural GA and people here own guns for more reasons than to shoot Deer and Turkey. I'd say 8 of 10 households here own at least one gun. I guarantee you if you live in the U.S. you are in and out of other people's homes everyday whose parents may own guns, you may not know it because they are kept under lock and key, but none the less they are there.

[SOCL]

Most people here don't really bother buying guns because of the hassel you have to go through to get them registered.

 

What hassle? If you don't have any felony records you wait a week and get a gun. A friend of mine has a 9mm glock, two shotguns, and sks assault rifle. Another friend from high school, his dad was a gun collector, he had a small arsenal of different ak-47 models (6-8 or so) plus tons of other crap. Maybe if you live the suburbs and have your private security guarding your neighborhood you've never a gun, maybe a taser? I live in rural GA and people here own guns for more reasons than to shoot Deer and Turkey. I'd say 8 of 10 households here own at least one gun. I guarantee you if you live in the U.S. you are in and out of other people's homes everyday whose parents may own guns, you may not know it because they are kept under lock and key, but none the less they are there.

Precisely why I would live on a military base if I ever returned to the state.

[budious]

Ugh... any hope I had for Obama over Clinton just went out the window. Now I hate both these scumbags on equal grounds.

 

"But while Obama mourns the slain students, he takes the massacre more as a theme than as a point of discussion.

 

"Maybe nothing could have been done to prevent it," he says toward the end.

 

So he moves quickly to the abstract: Violence, and the general place of violence in American life.

 

"There's also another kind of violence that we're going to have to think about. It's not necessarily the physical violence, but the violence that we perpetrate on each other in other ways," he said, and goes on to catalogue other forms of "violence."

 

There's the "verbal violence" of Imus."

 

Barack Obama compares the murder of 32 innocent people to Don Imus remarks... unf*cking believable... anyone who votes for this moron needs a swift kick in the nuts.

[Defender_16]

What hassle? If you don't have any felony records you wait a week and get a gun. A friend of mine has a 9mm glock, two shotguns, and sks assault rifle. Another friend from high school, his dad was a gun collector, he had a small arsenal of different ak-47 models (6-8 or so) plus tons of other crap. Maybe if you live the suburbs and have your private security guarding your neighborhood you've never a gun, maybe a taser? I live in rural GA and people here own guns for more reasons than to shoot Deer and Turkey. I'd say 8 of 10 households here own at least one gun. I guarantee you if you live in the U.S. you are in and out of other people's homes everyday whose parents may own guns, you may not know it because they are kept under lock and key, but none the less they are there.

 

I don't live in the US dude, I live in Canada.

Where the heck is GAT? He lives closer to Toronto so things may be diffrient there.

 

EDIT: ...uh, just realised my location marker isn't working.

*Fixed*

[budious]

I don't live in the US dude, I live in Canada.

 

OMG... a Canadian... the land of milk and honey and cannabis! I had no idea... my condolences. Don't worry though... if NAFTA holds together, you, me, and the mexicans will all be one happy United Friggin' North America someday. They won't let us build borders down south and eventually we'll hit capacity and you'll find out what having your country over run with Mexicans is like and how bad it sucks when your gov't doesn't give a crap.

[Paul]

Well I might as well weigh in on the gun issue. Although I lean towards Communism in beliefs I vote Republican every time because they tend to be more gun favorable candidates. My Father and I are hunters as well as gun collectors. My Father owns more than 100 guns and has a pistol permit and several pistols (we live in upstate NY and in our state you must have a permit - and go through an FBI background check to have pistols at all. ) I prefer military arms - semi autos which so far are legal and own an SKS, Mauser .98 , and 2 Russian AK 47s. Neither of us are nuts and we do not go around threatening people. Those who live in cities or built up areas may not realize how necessary a gun is to protect your home in outlying areas, but the last time we had a burglar - Dad scared him off by shooting over his head- it took the State Troopers an hour YES an hour to get to us and we called as soon as we heard broken glass. So much for the idea that Police can protect us. Even if every legal owner of guns gave them up, criminals wouldn't as seen in countries where they are banned. Sorry my friend Jahled but you and I will never see eye to eye on this, but we are still friends. Well thats my spouting off time. - Grand Moff Paul Conway

[JediHunter]

I'm gonna keep it short and sweet... I agree with everything Tex has to say. And if one person on that campus had been carrying... that all would have been over before it started. And let me ask.. those who are so opposed to guns.. have you shot one before? Many people think its a simple point and shoot.. but it takes some effort to load, arm and fire a weapon.. and someone who can do that towards his/her fellow man is a severely disturbed human being.. and even with more gun control that person would do it with something else if not an illegally purchased gun if he really intended to.

 

Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward.

Whoever cannot take care of themself without that law is both.

For a wounded man shall say to his assailant,

'If I live, I will kill you. If I die, You are forgiven.'

Such is the rule of honor.

[SOCL]

I prefer the European model: firearms for the police, firearms for the military. If you don't feel you can take care yourself without a firearm...well, there's something wrong there. People in Iraq and Afghanistan use this argument that they will not be regarded as "real men" without their weapon. Don't see why we in the Western world should think this way, too--haven't we progressed passed this? Haven't we progressed to talking and such before shooting? Sure, you'll need to protect yourself from some nut-case, but those are 1 in a million, in most cases, and unlike the previously mentioned countries, you're very unlikely to ever need to defend yourself with a firearm. The whole assured mutual destruction argument I find completely nonsensical. It surely worked during the Cold War--we only nearly destroyed each other a few hundred dozen times. This is an ego problem, as I see it. People don't want to be the guy who just walks away from a situation, so they'd rather pull a gun; luckily for them, so does the other guy, and both get themselves killed over essentially nothing. It's plain stupid.

 

If I want settle all of my problems under the threat of lethal force, I'll move to Somalia. You don't need firearms, you want firearms. I've had a pistol shoved in my face as the victim of a crime, and I can assure you, if I had pulled a pistol, I'd be dead. Lucky for me, I did the reasonable thing and handed the fellow my wallet, my watch, and ring. After that, I walked to a phone booth, dialed that wonderful number 911 and my things were recovered an hour or so later. Glad I didn't shoot the fellow over it--no point in doing that, to tell you the truth. Besides, police have a tendency to accidentally shoot people when they're just pulling a wallet or phone from their pocket. Imagine if they had the thought that the guy they're approaching, like everyone else, has a firearm. Yeah, one wrong move, buddy, and you're dead because it doesn't matter who you are, you are too likely to have a firearm and, therefore, too likely to use it. They don't go, "Oh, this guy seems reasonable. He won't try to kill us." No, they shoot to kill if they think you're going to try to harm or kill them--no questions asked! It's the same reason police officers keep their hands on their pistols whenever they pull someone over--they don't give anyone the benefit of the doubt because that's how they're trained to react.

 

I'm quite happy without a pistol. Sure, one day there might come that fellow with a gun who doesn't care for my wallet and will put a lead round through my forehead, but then, what, should I kill him, too? That's ego. Let someone else deal with him because I won't be able to do a damn thing either way.

[Eagle]

I totally agree with SOCL!

 

Just one thing to add to weapons in switzerland. Only people who are in the army or did their service in the swiss army are allowed to keep a weapon at home. This is of course also to policemen. What´s up to private persons is out of my knowledge, but I guess that, like in germany, you need a really good reason to get a license for having a weapon.

[DarthTex]

As for the European model, I think it's a bit more disconcerting to see police going around with fully automatic machine guns, compared to a pistol for US police. Why do the police in Europe need automatic weapons? If they have them, there must be a reason; they're not carrying them around just for the fun of it! I know they all don't carry automatic weapons, but I have seen them do so.

 

And to "think" we're above such petty ego; that may only be part of it. Some crazed strung out junkie who's looking for his next fix, isn't going to give a gnat's ass about all of your higher ideals and education. He wants your stuff, so he can get his "high". You start to try and talk your way out of it, he thinks you're stalling and puts a cap in you and just takes your stuff. He doesn't think about the consequences, he wants DRUGS (not your hot air rambly BS that's giving him an additional headache). Just because you have a gun or carry a gun, that doesn't mean you have to use the gun. It's up to the individual to decide if it's necessary to use his weapon or not; but at least you get the choice And as for the police "accidentally" shooting people, you make it sound like "it happens all the time"; surely it's closer to one-in-a-million. They are trained professionals, and trained for that very scenario. I would give them the benefit of the doubt, as they will warn you (repeatedly) if you start doing something "foolish".

 

If we're talking about the one-in-a-million nutcase, then why is everybody is such an uproar about taking away guns? It's only a one-in-a-million nutcase Surely, it doesn't happen that often that we have to try and ban guns to keep that one-in-a-million nutcase from getting a pistol. What if he gets a tranquilizer gun and puts chemicals in there instead of meds? Timothy McVeigh used fertilizer to make a big bomb. People can make pipe bombs and do all of the time. Unless you're going to turn the US into the USSR and control every person, every minute, there will never be "true safety". If you want "utopia" and the ideal society, you'll find it at the library under "Fiction".

 

@SOCL: you participate in Roman Legion re-enactments. The Roman legions carried weapons (short swords, spears, etc.). Those were the "guns" of their day. And back in those days, atrocities to mankind were far worse than they are today. Is there some conflict between what you say and what you do? Just asking

[Eagle]

As for the European model, I think it's a bit more disconcerting to see police going around with fully automatic machine guns, compared to a pistol for US police. Why do the police in Europe need automatic weapons? If they have them, there must be a reason; they're not carrying them around just for the fun of it! I know they all don't carry automatic weapons, but I have seen them do so.

These were either Police Special Units or the Boarder-Patrol, who arm themselves in special cases, like a dangerous person who is on the run. But all in all they just wear their pistols.

 

We also have criminals and violence here in europe. But we don´t think about of having a gun at home. Like mentioned above, you would need a real good reason to get one here.

 

If guns weren´t easily available in the US, not much criminals would have one and people wouldn´t think about arming themselves. All in all I don´t believe that the US-Citizens aren´t more violent than the citizens of any european country.

[SOCL]

I think it's a bit more disconcerting to see police going around with fully automatic machine guns, compared to a pistol for US police.

Eh? Our police carry automatic firearms on a daily basis! MP5 submachine guns, AR-15/M16s assault rifles, M4 assault rifle/carbine, M85 .50 caliber sniper rifle(!). Our police forces use automatic weapons all of the time, likely more often than European police agencies. Did you notice all those M4s at Virginia Tech?

 

And as for the police "accidentally" shooting people, you make it sound like "it happens all the time"; surely it's closer to one-in-a-million. They are trained professionals, and trained for that very scenario. I would give them the benefit of the doubt, as they will warn you (repeatedly) if you start doing something "foolish".

I actually beg to differ. My cousin was confused for someone else and a cop in Chicago pulled a gun on him while my cousin had his back turned. The cop yelled at him to turn around, and when he did, the cop fired! Yeah, no joke. If it wasn't for my cousin's dumb luck of flinching to one side, he would have ended up dead with a round in the face rather than a destroyed shoulder. Yeah, my cousin wasn't even mistaken for someone who was armed. Sorry, but if the cops know everyone has a weapon, they'd be more likely to shoot. They are trained to shoot to kill, and do so the moment they believe they are at risk. I know this: my grandfather was a police chief, as is my uncle, and a very close family friend. They tell me this all the time.

 

If we're talking about the one-in-a-million nutcase, then why is everybody is such an uproar about taking away guns?

I never said to take away everyone's firearm(s). I personally don't see a reason for it, but it's a guaranteed Constitutional right in the USA. Even so, I believe it should be regulated: highly! In that case we can reduce the odds of an armed nutcase from one-in-a-million to one-in-a-billion. In any event, I'm not trying to make the world perfect, Tex--it won't happen, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to make it safer. Again, I never said you can't have a firearm, but I believe it needs to be regulated.

 

@SOCL: you participate in Roman Legion re-enactments. The Roman legions carried weapons (short swords, spears, etc.). Those were the "guns" of their day. And back in those days, atrocities to mankind were far worse than they are today. Is there some conflict between what you say and what you do? Just asking

I don't think this is particularly relevant to firearms, but even so... First, I'd like to know what atrocity comes even close to a single atrocity, even in percentage terms, of the ancient world to the modern world, or just the 20th Century! I would love to see some data, Tex, because death counts in battles or just normal scuffles were far fewer per person (percentage) than today. Most people actually didn't die in combat, Tex.

 

In any event, you're talking about Roman legionaries, not civilians. Civilian citizens were not permitted to own swords or spears, Tex, after the 3rd Century BCE. Before that, everyone was a soldier, similar to Switzerland, thus everyone had to own a weapon, but was not permitted to leave home with it unless called to duty. They would be arrested and fined heavily for brandishing a weapon in public, of any sort. And murders, Tex, were not as common then as today, contrary to popular belief. In any event, I never ever, ever, ever (EVER!) said anything about soldiers, i.e. legionaries, owning weapons.

 

There is no conflict between what I say and what I do, Tex. To make it clear: I reenact a Roman soldier, not a civilian with a gun, sword, spear, or whatever sort of weapon. I reenact someone who has an ordered necessity to carry a weapon, just like a modern day soldier. When not at war or on patrol, guess where the weapons were kept? No, the soldier didn't keep it, believe it or not, the Army kept the weapons in armories, just like in the modern day.

Edited April 18, 2007 by SOCL

[Darth_Rob]

I just dont see what the qualm is if somebody enjoys guns. Whether they collect them, hunt, or just shoot recreationally (at targets to improve accuracy and what not), I think civilians should have access to guns if they want. If you dont want to deal with it, then dont buy one. But let me tell you. My father is a hunter/gun collector. Growing up, I was exposed to guns at a very young age. And I turned out just fine (well, gun safety wise at least). I respected the gun from the start (through his constant lessons and what not) and was never curious about them or thought they were "cool" enough to play around with them. I learned a lot about safety and respect through it, and I definitely plan on doing the same with my kids. And on a lighter subject, a lesson taken from the Simpson family:

 

When Lisa made it apparent that she resented guns and the needlessness of the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution, Homer came back at her by saying something along the lines of "Oh yeah?! Then the King of England could just come in here, and start pushing you around? Would you like that? Huh? Huh?"

[Jahled]

Wise words in all, SOCL.

 

I must confess, as a non-American, in viewing North-American society's obsession with guns, and the inevitable carnage that happens from time to time, I am simply amazed, but not shocked. People flip. If they are allowed access to firearms, the resulting possibility of a bloodbath is far more likely.

 

I've just watched the store keeper who sold the killer the gun on the news, question what might have happened if 28,000 students were armed. Good heavens! Can you imagine the mayhem! Hundreds of panicking people rushing around in confusion waving loaded guns in the air! Bullets flying all over the place!

 

I'm not going to dwell to much on this subject, because ultimately it's not really something that affects my life, given I don't live in a country with millions of firearms, and that I also find the concept of living in such a society, an element of life I really could do without. To be armed to the teeth is a rather sad statement of a society I think, so i'll untick the USA as a retirement possibility when i've earnt my billions working for a charity.

 

@Paul: ONE HUNDRED GUNS!!! At least we all know where to seek refuge come doomsday! Do you have a tank to drive you to the grocery store? Oh, and this is the free world, you can live your life and express your opinion without any tarnish on friendship mate! I simply don't share your view on this subject! We seem to share a love of Star Wars though!

 

This should be in the right place after some mod maneuvering..

[SOCL]

Rob, don't get me wrong. The Constitution's Second Amendment guarantees U.S. citizens the right to bear arms (and arm bears! ), so let it be. I am a Soldier, I grew up in a military family, my grandfather was a cop--yeah, I've been exposed to firearms quite a bit, not to mention growing up in Norfolk, VA. I personally don't believe there is any need for civilians to own firearms, but since they do, I do believe they should be regulated in order to prevent people from acquiring them too easily or too quickly. I also believe that assault and automatic weapons should be outlawed--let me restated that, automatic weapons should be outlawed for civilian ownership. I have no issue with the military or police forces having firearms.

 

Something just came to mind. I mentioned earlier that I believe firearm violence begets firearm violence in a sort of 'small-arms race', if you will, and that I do not believe that everyone being armed, as suggested by someone (I don't remember who), would keep people from committing crime under the threat of mutual annihilation. It was this small-arms race of sorts that forced the police departments around the USA to arm themselves with automatic weapons, namely AR-15/M16s and M4s, when in the early 90s a pair of bank robbers raided a bank in Beverly Hills, CA. Both were armed with AKs and other forms of assault rifles, and covered from head to toe in Kevlar body armor. This was one of the reasons used to support the Assault Weapons Ban, which the current Presidential Administration made no effort to renew. This sort violence forms a cycle wherein the good guys get bigger weapons to fight the bad guys, who get bigger weapons, etc. There are always going to be the freak cases that are completely out of pattern with criminal statistics, but lets be honest: less firearms in civilian hands, lower probability of nut-cases getting a hold of them. It's a fact you really can't dispute. Sure, a determined criminal will get a hold of weapon no matter what you do, but what, so we just let everyone get one? Okay, so I move that we let Iran have nukes, then--hell, everyone should have nuke! Mexico, Haiti, Somalia, and even poor Yemen. C'mon, they're going to get them anyway, so why not just make them totally legal?

[Darth_Rob]

Im sorry, but I just dont see why innocent civilian gun collectors should not be allowed to pursue their passion. And regardless of what anti-gun laws are passed, the professional criminals will still get their hands on them through smuggling and the black market. There is no way to stop that, aside from building a shield generator around a nation to stop everything from getting in or out. As for gun regulation, I cant see how you could possibly want any more. If you go to a store to purchase a gun, you have to wait several days while the FBI and other agencys run checks on you. If you have been a perfect citizen in the past, than they have no reason to not allow you to have weapons of your choice.

 

What it all comes down to, and I think Tex already said it, is that guns dont kill people, people kill people. You cant blame the actions of a mentally insane person on the tool they are using. Its a truely sad and horrible say when someone misuses a weapon for deranged reasons, but its going to happen in society. There was no way for the gun salesman or the government to know that this VA-Tech kid was gonna blow his stack soon. Violence is just one of the evils we have to deal with in a society, and if a person misuses a piece of technology (whether a gun or car or anything else) that non-sentinent tool cannot be put to blame.

[SOCL]

I never blamed the guns for killing people, but I do blame guns as the enabler of more carnage and death than would be possible if the firearm wasn't so readily available. I also don't think that anyone has stated that citizens shouldn't own firearms, only that there should be a line between what is considered safe and legal and what is not. And it makes no difference how amazingly awesome or long someone has been exposed to firearms, assault weapons put more lead in the air than pistols. Pistols put more lead in the air than fists. The less of them you have, the less lead you'll have flying in the air. And the determined criminal will get a gun--fine, it will happen, but what is the likelihood they will if restrictions are placed on the sale and such of firearms?: Far lower. Sure, you may have a resurgence in knife and other such cutting violences, but those are easier to recover from. I don't know why the excuse that criminals will get them if they are determined enough is actually valid for allowing others to carry firearms. Again, Iran's going to get a nuke anyway, so why not just every country in the world a nuke? That'll work, right? I sure do trust Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen, and Israel with nuclear weapons!

[Darth_Rob]

I hate to bring this subject down even more, but I just got off the phone with my girlfriend. Apparently one of the victims who was killed was a girl my girlfriend went to highschool with. They knew each other through the drama club. She is pretty shook up about it, knowing that she knew someone involved in that.

[SOCL]

I hate to bring this subject down even more, but I just got off the phone with my girlfriend. Apparently one of the victims who was killed was a girl my girlfriend went to highschool with. They knew each other through the drama club. She is pretty shook up about it, knowing that she knew someone involved in that.

My heart and sympathies go out to your girlfriend, Rob. Let her know she's in our thoughts and prayers.