VA Tech Tragedy & Gun Debate (from world conflicts)

[DarthTofu]

Holy crap! So who here has heard about the Virginia Tech shooting? Not exact a world conflict, but another shooting might herald an increase in 'em elsewhere... I had family there! Fortunately he's alright, but still... Thirty-three are dead when I'm writing this, with about 22 or so injured... Jeeze...

 

Edit: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vtech.shooting/index.html

A link to the story on this.... Oh, jeeze....

[Eagle]

I´ve just heard it in the news about an hour ago. Shocking! It´s much worse than Littleton. And this is to all the politicians out there: Please don´t tell us he did that just because he played Doom or Counterstrike!!!

[Jahled]

Everyone by now. It's terrible.

[SOCL]

Have a friend at VA Tech. He's doing alright--didn't know it was happening until the police dragged him off campus. Apparently campus authorities didn't decide to shut down the university until AFTER the second shooting had begun despite knowing the shooter was on the loose. Very sad, very depressing.

[DarthTofu]

What I've seen indicates that they had reason to believe that the first shooting was a murder case, and that the shooter had left campus. I'm not sure that it was the best idea to not call all of the students in, but that's what I heard. Edited April 17, 2007 by DarthTofu

[Jahled]

And this is to all the politicians out there: Please don´t tell us he did that just because he played Doom or Counterstrike!!!

 

Unlike Germany or the UK, civilian America has lots of guns.

 

Which is why I don't wont to live there

[budious]

On the flip side of this argument, many, many people own guns and use them responsibly. If guns were allowed to be publicly carried by every citizen and by students on campus, someone could have pulled their gun and shot this punk dead. It has happened in the past when a good Samaritan uses a gun to stop someone else from shooting without cause.

 

From the reports, It's a fruity foreign asian kid, probably not a Counter Strike player but more likely an anime porn addict and Yugo card collector. Idiots in the press will spin this as violent video games and lack of gun control. The guy shot 32 people dead using two 9mm handguns. He did not need M4's or AK-47's! A lot of good these laws do blocking semi-automatic weapons, if someone wants to kill randomly they will find ways to commit these atrocities. There is no way to stop the madness! God rest their souls.

 

I wonder what Imus would say... oh wait... the free speech assassination squad got him kicked off the air! Boo! Bring back Imus!

[Darth_Rob]

I had no idea this had happened until I got home from work and had an email from my college president mentioning it.

 

It is a ridiculous tragedy. Some people are just ridiculously nuts, think their life is over because they have a bad day, and just take it out on the world. Truely sad.

 

But I have something to add, politically. I am a strong conservative, and I love guns and am all for gun rights. But I am very, VERY disappointed in President Bush's speech about the issue, where he re-emphasises his stance on gun rights, as did Senator McCain. They took this tragedy and threw in their political views while expressing regret, and I don't like that one bit. If they wanted to do that, they could have waited for another day, another press release...

[SOCL]

No a fan of Imus. I don't see how everyone carrying firearms would be at all safe. The threat of mutual extermination as a constant deterrent from crime is not an environment I'd like to live or raise a family in. No guns, minimal gun violence. I could care less if people want to own a gun, but then, it's about them, it's about the common good. Whether it's a pistol, .22, or an AK-47--guns kill, end of story. Sure, he could have easily wielded a knife, machete, or katana, but I'm rather certain more people would have escaped death in that sort of scenario.

 

In any event, I'm not so much concerned over the gun laws. NRA is a powerful political lobby in this country, so powerful they managed to get gun laws repealed not long after the Columbine massacre. They also managed to overturn the assault weapons ban so now I can go off and buy an AK-47 and with the right type of tweaking, it's legally mine to use how I damn well please. Just what I've always wanted, an assault rifle.

 

The gun laws in this incident don't really concern me for the above stated reason. Rather, I'm concerned over the fact that the President of the University did not shut down the university after the first shooting took place. Sure, they shut down that particular building (a dormitory), but they must have known that would accomplish nothing. He spouted excuses about not being able to do anything because "thousands of students were in transit" to the campus. So it just took two hours for them to figure it all out. Well, I'm inclined to blame this guy for criminal negligence. I don't honestly give a damn if people were in transit, you have a murder scene in a dorm and the gunman is GONE, out on the loose. He gave some stupid excuse about their believing the gunman was heading out-of-state, never once thinking he could come back? Or perhaps was still on campus?

 

Fact of the matter was, someone committed a gun-violence murder on campus and their only response was to close that building despite the fact the gunman was out on the loose. I've been to VA Tech and they could have closed that university down. I don't care how open they want to say it is, I've been there and it wouldn't take much to set up police roadblocks to keep out at least a majority of students. And then the President of the Univ said that the email system ran late (at about 9 around the same time the second shooting was happening!) because it apparently takes time to send out an email. I think he's a liar! It does not take more than a minute or two to pull up an email program, select the 'all student' list, and give instructions to not come to campus and for everyone else to return and stay in their dorms until instructed otherwise. Combined with roadblocks, there wouldn't have been thousands of potential targets walking around.

 

Instead, because of his negligence, 30 persons are dead and two dozen or so in hospital. I understand the gunman is ultimately to blame, but the authorities did NOTHING of value in response.

[Darth_Rob]

I agree that there was a lack of action on the schools part. It was in their power to do more in order to save those lives. What it comes down to is the fact that no one expects these things to happen. It is such a rare occurence, and everyone says "well it cant happen HERE"...no one considers it an event that can take place in their school or hometown. But unfortunatly, crazy messed up people can exist everywhere, from the urban areas of NYC to the backwater countrysides.

 

But as far as guns go, I am all for them, and for gun rights. Most gun-related violent acts occur with pistols or rifles, you never hear of a guy shooting up his girlfriend with an assult rifle or the like. Only professional criminals (professional robbers and such) use assult weapons, and I can assure you that they dont walk into the downtown gun shop to pick those up...they use the black market through some guy on the street. All I can say is that guns are great, and to make the honest collectors suffer due to the actions of the criminally insane is just ridiculous.

[Eagle]

From the reports, It's a fruity foreign asian kid, probably not a Counter Strike player but more likely an anime porn addict and Yugo card collector.

He´s chinese, not japanese.

 

If you like to collect weapons just because you think they look cool and you don´t have to use it, you also could buy a fake weapon. Bute I don´t know why somebody should own an assault-rifle for private use!!?? You want one? Go to the Army!

 

We just had here a kind of similar massacre in a school a couple of months ago, where a guy stole the guns of his father. I guess I don´t have to mention that if his father hadn´t any weapons at home, the massacre never had happened for sure.

[JediHunter]

I don't see how everyone carrying firearms would be at all safe. The threat of mutual extermination as a constant deterrent from crime is not an environment I'd like to live or raise a family in. No guns, minimal gun violence.

SOCL, as I'm sure you are aware of this.. we already are living in an environment of possible mutual extermination.. and use weapons as a deterrent... hence our strategy of "Nuclear Deterrence". Which I'm guessing you disagree with? However I'm quite comfortable living in this world with such a strategy, mainly due to the fact that it makes people stop and think if they really want to attack. If we had no possible threat of a nuclear retaliation the world would have been a desolate, scarred and radiated hunk of rock with the exception of the country which had nukes first.. while others were still developing them.. oh.. and its allies. If you knew that everyone walking around could possibly have a firearm... you would be more hesitant to threaten them. Besides.. if we got rid of firearms all together.. for the average civilian.. then who do you think would have the guns??! (I'll quote Rob here)

Only professional criminals (professional robbers and such) use assult weapons, and I can assure you that they dont walk into the downtown gun shop to pick those up...they use the black market through some guy on the street.

Professional criminals and even the casual criminal would be the ones carrying the guns at that point thanks to the black market.. and we would have no way to defend ourselves from them.

 

He´s chinese, not japanese.

So its a communist plot to thwart the capitalist regime?!?!

[SOCL]

What it comes down to is the fact that no one expects these things to happen. It is such a rare occurence, and everyone says "well it cant happen HERE"...no one considers it an event that can take place in their school or hometown.

You say that, but Virginia Tech has dealt with a series of bomb threats and another shooting earlier this year, so I don't think what you're saying is necessarily valid. They already knew it could happen because it already had happened.

[DarthTex]

Whether it's a pistol, .22, or an AK-47--guns kill, end of story.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

 

If someone wants to commit a crime, they will do it regardless of all the laws and rules society tries to enforce on them. That's why gun control will never work; it only take guns away from honest citizens because criminals will get them somehow, somewhere.

 

... I'm concerned over the fact that the President of the University did not shut down the university after the first shooting took place. Sure, they shut down that particular building (a dormitory), but they must have known that would accomplish nothing.

First off, hindsight is 20/20. If there's a murder in New York City, you certainly don't expect the mayor to shut down the whole city. That would be ridiculous and might cause widespread panic and even more problems and crime. It just doesn't work that way.

 

(I'm waiting for Billary and the other Democrats to call for a total withdraw of all students from college campuses across the country, to protect their lives. Education can be deadly)

 

It was believed to be an isolated incident, and they acted accordingly. Let the people do their jobs. Not everybody makes the best decisions under pressure without all of the information; they do the best they can with what they have on hand. Let's learn from this, adapt, and continue to live. Everybody should keep their mouths shut if all they want to do is complain; offer positive ideas to help, because blaming others won't bring back the dead! My condolences to all of those affected by this tragic incident.

 

 

PS I'm not attacking SOCL personally and I hope it doesn't come across as such. If it appears that way, I'm sorry. I'm only taking a different view from SOCL's perspective.

 

 

Man, I miss the ol' West

[SOCL]

I understand what you're saying, Tex, but they had locked down the campus earlier in the year under similar circumstances with anything happening. It bothers me that here, though, they knew the gunman was out and on the loose and did nothing until two hours later (such as emailing the students) when the second shooting began. I realize it may have caused a panic, but better to cause a controlled panic and have the campus empty or mostly empty than have thousands of people walking around as potential targets for this gunman. Again, yes, it may have caused a slight panic, but the past two or three times they carried out the very procedure I suggested, there was no panic because the students knew exactly what to do.

 

(I'm waiting for Billary and the other Democrats to call for a total withdraw of all students from college campuses across the country, to protect their lives. Education can be deadly)

I'm waiting for the Administration to declare war on Asians/Pacific Islanders.

 

The shooter himself was South Korean, to clear that up.

[budious]

He´s chinese, not japanese.

 

Seems Mr. Cho Seung-Hui was Korean actually. Anyways, I think the biggest factor in this tragedy is the police focused on the wrong suspect in the first shooting and the University administration did not react quickly enough or consider the larger potential threat. An initial campus lock down, rather disruptive would have canceled classes for one day but ensured safety until the suspect was found. I heard this story on the radio on the way to my University for classes yesterday, at the time the report was 22 dead. When I arrived, there was a noticeable police presence and security walking around on foot which is rare, most of the time they are in patrol cars. I think many Universities will now review their own emergency planning regarding such instances.

[JediHunter]

An initial campus lock down, rather disruptive would have canceled classes for one day but ensured safety until the suspect was found.

 

But imagined if he had moved off campus or gone on to speed out of the state, or go shoot people elsewhere or whatever.. had they shut down the campus and found nothing it would have caused a stir and disruption which would have been deemed unnecessary. Quite possibly to the extent that someone, somewhere would have complained, possibly even sued (and won) the university for damages.. so far to the point to where this guy could have been fired as president of the university. I can entirely see that happening in this country.. hence i really think this guy was watching out for his own ass.... damned if you do and damned if you dont.. just a question.... does anyone know what kind of rules regulates the president of a university?.......... anyone?......... didnt think so... i dont think we should all be so quick to judge..

Lets run a scenario... you are the head of someplace and the police call your office:

"Sir, there's been a shooting in Dormitory A. Suspect on foot."

"Ok, shut the building down, commence a search for him."

"We think hes already off campus."

What would you do? I think the response of "Shut the building down, and search for suspect on campus with discretion" would be an appropriate response.

[budious]

I personally don't know too many students who would complain, let alone sue if their classes were canceled on a particular day... especially considering the suspect of a on campus murder could potentially be on campus. I see your reasoning but wrong and alive trumps wrong and dead!

[Eagle]

Seems Mr. Cho Seung-Hui was Korean actually.

Then I guess he did that because of Starcraft and WoW.

[budious]

Seems Mr. Cho Seung-Hui was Korean actually.

Then I guess he did that because of Starcraft and WoW.

 

You sir, I hold you accountable for your racist remarks! How dare you! I am notifying Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton! You shall have to bow down and kiss black ass. We will even make you apologize to all the white and black players of WoW and Starcraft for implying they must be asians! Bigotry alive and well on the swrebellion forums, just not the Don Imus show!

[budious]

"APRIL 17--The college student responsible for yesterday's Virginia Tech slaughter was referred last year to counseling after professors became concerned about the violent nature of his writings, as evidenced in a one-act play obtained by The Smoking Gun. The play by Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old English major, was submitted last year as part of a short story writing class. Entitled "Richard McBeef," Cho's bizarre play features a 13-year-old boy who accuses his stepfather of pedophilia and murdering his father."

 

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html

[Darth_Rob]

Some people are just nuts and sick in the head. 'Nuff said.

[Jahled]

On the flip side of this argument, many, many people own guns and use them responsibly. If guns were allowed to be publicly carried by every citizen and by students on campus, someone could have pulled their gun and shot this punk dead. It has happened in the past when a good Samaritan uses a gun to stop someone else from shooting without cause.

 

I can sort of understand where that's coming from, but would you truly want to live in a society where that would be the case Bud fella!

 

Excuse my European outlandish, obvious *recoil* at the concept, but would you genuinely feel comfortable walking past other people armed with a gun in the street? Is that the society you want your future kids to grow up in? Life doesn't have to be warfare.

 

On another note, you guys had about 30,000 gun-related deaths last year, we had under 200. Even with population consideration's, this is a dramatic contrast.

[DarthTofu]

I'm not going to lie- I'd really prefer if the States would get far stricter gun-control laws, with nothing about a hand gun with a small clip available for sale to persons in urban areas unless they're with the police, armed forces, etc. In some cases, such as rural ones, higher calliber firearms are going to necessary for hunting and like, but when the population density is high enough, I'd really prefer to see weapons with less power over weapons with more power, and no weapons at all over weapons in the first place. Just settle it with your fists if you have to, or better yet, don't blow people's brains out.

[budious]

Just settle it with your fists if you have to, or better yet, don't blow people's brains out.

 

People who are sensible enough to finish an argument with words or fists aren't the people running around blowing people's heads off. In this particular case, the suspect didn't need high power firearms either. 9mm and .22 pistol are standard firearms without special restrictions in the U.S.

 

Jahled, I see quite a few people around here who wear pistols in public. Some are off duty law enforcement but they hardly ever go anywhere without their firearms. People who are not in law enforcement often carry firearms in their trucks or cars as under GA law you can apply for a carry permit as long as the firearm remains in the center console, it is permitted. Otherwise, it must be locked in a gun case for transport. It may be strange concept for those in the UK but most Americans are used to seeing guns. As long as no one is waving them around or firing shots in public we don't think much about it.