Guest Scathane Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 (edited) Well, there you go! I told it once and I'll say it again Lucas(arts) is whimsical and inconsistent. I would say that discrepancies between the old movies the new, books and games could be accounted for: they were not made at the same time. BUT to be highly inconsistent in one column of text is just too much! Behold excerpts from Obi-Wan Kenobi from the Star Wars Databank: 1. The council refused Jinn's proposal to train the boy [Anakin]. This was just one of many disagreements that Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn had during their time together. Jinn, a proponent of the living Force over the more serene unifying Force, had long been a maverick in the eyes of the Jedi Council. Obi-Wan implored his master not to go against the Council. 2. Qui-Gon's dying words were a request for Obi-Wan to train Anakin, despite the Council's objection. The Council ultimately agreed with Obi-Wan taking Anakin as a Padawan -- though Jedi Master Yoda had strong reservations about it. 3. As Anakin progressed, Obi-Wan grew increasingly concerned that the young Padawan's raw power had fostered a dangerous arrogance. He frequently expressed these reservations to the senior members of the Jedi Council, but they continued to trust in Kenobi's mentorship. 4. Anakin Skywalker was one of many casualties of that darkness. Obi-Wan incorrectly believed that he could train Anakin as skillfully as the revered Yoda. He would later admit that he was wrong. His arrogance had grave consequences for the galaxy. Entire text: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/obiwankenobi/index.html In the first excerpt it is quite clear that Obi-Wan is not a fervent supporter of going against the Jedi Council; he even disagreed on this with his master. Excerpt 2 goes on to imply that Kenobi took Anakin as a Padawan because it was his master's dying wish. Yoda is still against it, the Jedi Council all of a sudden isn't??? Later, Kenobi expresses his doubts about Anakin to the Council and they continue to trust in Kenobi's mentorship????? Where did that change come about? When, as excerpt 4 tells us, Kenobi's doubts about Anakin prove true, it all of a sudden is Kenobi's arrogance that caused it all????? If you ask me, the primary arrogance is with Qui-Gon Jin: he wanted to train the boy. Moreover, it is all too easy for the Jedi Council to swithch opinions all of the time: Qui-Gon: I implore you to train the boy, Kenobi... Aaargh!Kenobi: Sigh! I will do it, although I don't really agree...Yoda: Strong reservations I have... ummhhh...The Jedi Council: ............. Kenobi (after training the boy for a couple of years): I am anxious for the boy's arrogance.The Jedi Council: No way, man! You're the greatest mentor we've seen in a long time! You totally rule as a Jedi! You kick Sith butt! Just go ahead, you have our blessing, man! We trust ya! Kenobi (after Anakin has fallen): I all my fault! Sob...., sob!The Jedi Council: .............. SJEEZ!!! Edited March 27, 2003 by Scathane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK421 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 You're spoilering? Kenobi (after Anakin has fallen): I all my fault! Sob...., sob! The Jedi Council: .............. Z'anthr saves the world. Sorry about the mess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scathane Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 You're spoilering? Kenobi (after Anakin has fallen): I all my fault! Sob...., sob! The Jedi Council: .............. No, I'm not spoilering, I'm more or less reciting what's there for all to read in the Star Wars Databank. You might want to follow the link in my prvious post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisMiggell Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Sorry mate but i think i'm going to have to disagree on this one. Yes, Obi Wan didn't think it was a good idea, neither did Yoda or the council, but Jinn did. Obi Wan was a loyal Padawan and didn't want to let his master down by not carrying out his dying wish. Obi Wan convinces the council to let him train the boy due to Jinns dying wish, and the reemergence of the Sith. Yoda isn't keen because the meaning of the prophecy isn't clear. They agree anyway because of Anakins talent and the importance of the situation. Obi Wan starts to have doubts and talks to the council. This is Obi Wans first padawan, he's going to be nervous with such a responsibility. Yoda and the council have seen Anakin grow, and though he is a little arrogant, he hasn't exactly let them down yet, so they encourage Obi Wan. Once Anakin has turned, Obi Wan berates himself. Maybe the council couldn't have seen it because they weren't around Anakin so much, but he reckons he should have seen it. He reckons he let his pride blind him. He blames himself. I think it just shows that no one really knew what the prophecy meant and that none of them could have anticipatedwhat would have happened. Remember, the Dark Side was clouding everything. So i don't think there's that much of a contradiction, just change over time. Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine... Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la Not gone, merely marching far away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scathane Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 I must say, your explanation sounds quite good, ElvisMiggell: if you put it like that, I see no inconsistence either. The point however, remains, Lucas(arts) doesn't: it is you, a fan, who must tell me this. If you just read the SW Databank story, it sounds highly inconsistent. I find that this happens often: fans filling in the blanks that Lucas(arts) left there. I mean, have you actually read all you were saying in a novel or something, or is it just your own interpretation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisMiggell Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Hmmm, well I've got pretty much all the Star Wars books and of course the films. Some of it is cited, a lot inferred, but that's the beauty of Star Wars. A great story is told, yet left open enough for us to draw our own conclusions from it. I think the real problem lies in Lucas not having written any books. There's no time for it in the films, fair enough, but it might have become clearer if it were written down in detail by Lucas, but he doesn't seem to be in the writing scene. Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine... Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la Not gone, merely marching far away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scathane Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisMiggell Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine... Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la Not gone, merely marching far away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vakundok Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Read the novelization. The Council changed the decision (not to train Anakin) after they examined what he (Anakin) did on Naboo and understood that he was led by the Force just like a jedi, not because it was Jinn's wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisMiggell Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Ooops, forgot about that. Yeah sorry. Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine... Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la Not gone, merely marching far away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scathane Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Read the novelization. The Council changed the decision (not to train Anakin) after they examined what he (Anakin) did on Naboo and understood that he was led by the Force just like a jedi, not because it was Jinn's wish. Thanks Vakundok!!! Are you trying to mislead me here, ElvisMiggel??? This again opens up the discussion for the it being rather weird that Kenobi should take the fall for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scathane Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Read the novelization. The Council changed the decision (not to train Anakin) after they examined what he (Anakin) did on Naboo and understood that he was led by the Force just like a jedi, not because it was Jinn's wish. This calls for a change in my earlier piece about the Jedi Council switching opinions: Qui-Gon: I implore you to train the boy, Kenobi... Aaargh! The Jedi Council: Being conceived immaculately can happen to anyone, but now that we have seen a very young boy being able to pilot a starship without any training whatsoever, we're convinced that he was led by the Force. He should be trained to become a Jedi.Yoda: Strong reservations I have... ummhhh... Kenobi: Since I implore the whole universe not to go against the Council, I'll do it. Kenobi (after training the boy for a couple of years): I am anxious for the boy's arrogance. The Jedi Council: No way, man! You're the greatest mentor we've seen in a long time! You totally rule as a Jedi! You kick Sith butt! Just go ahead, you have our blessing, man! We trust ya! Yoda: Cloud everything, the Dark Side does... ummhhh... Kenobi: Since I never go against the Council, I guess it's just me. Kenobi (after Anakin has fallen): I never go against the Council, so they couldn't have been wrong. So, it's all my fault! Sob...., sob! The Jedi Council: ..............Scathane: SJEEZ!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK421 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Obi Wan is a bad mentor. An unexperienced young Jedi, only promoted because he slew down a Sith. If hte council was really concerned they should have let someone like a council member train Anakin. In the book of prelude to attack of the clones, about Ansion, they all keep saying that Obi Wan is a great mentor and such, but even in Rogue planet it is pretty clear that Obi Wan is not the right man at the right place. Z'anthr saves the world. Sorry about the mess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vakundok Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Council member: Anakin was clearly led by the Force. Qui-gonn was right about him. It is possible that he is really the chosen one. Ha can be trained now.Yoda: I have strong preservations, his future is covered by the dark side ...Cm: Shut up, master Yoda! Cm: Qui-gonn wished Kenobi to train the boy.Y: Kenobi is a jedi now without the jedi trial, but I doubt he is suited to train the boy.Mace Windu: He destroyed a sith lord. This trial answers any questions or preservations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK421 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Killing someone is something totally different than the basic Jedi code. Z'anthr saves the world. Sorry about the mess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisMiggell Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Interesting. But as with any great saga, there will always be discrepancies. And with something like Star Wars, the more we study it, the more we are bound to find. Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine... Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la Not gone, merely marching far away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahled Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 I'm so bored at work today I bought myself a copy of Time Magazine (March 31, 2003); there's an article on eighty days that shook history. Star Wars is one of them!!! But we all knew that didn't we... http://www.jahled.co.uk/smallmonkeywars.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisMiggell Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Merely confirms our suspicions.... Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine... Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la Not gone, merely marching far away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trejiuvanat Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 I'm so bored at work today I bought myself a copy of Time Magazine (March 31, 2003); there's an article on eighty days that shook history. Star Wars is one of them!!! But we all knew that didn't we... I knew it all along. You get bored at work and go and buy a magazine. I get bored at school, and still find myself fighting "Impossible Integral", "Die GRetchenfrage", and somethign realted a to a weird physics experiment. Lucky you... http://www.swrebellion.com/~jahled/Trej/banner.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahled Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Difference is, I guess, is when I got bored at school, rather than deal with all that head-dweeb shit, I just failed to turn up! Guess that's why I spend so much time bored at work!!! http://www.jahled.co.uk/smallmonkeywars.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scathane Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Obi Wan is a bad mentor. An unexperienced young Jedi, only promoted because he slew down a Sith. If hte council was really concerned they should have let someone like a council member train Anakin. In the book of prelude to attack of the clones, about Ansion, they all keep saying that Obi Wan is a great mentor and such, but even in Rogue planet it is pretty clear that Obi Wan is not the right man at the right place. I missed that in SW EU. This is from a novel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wormie Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 I think that Obi Wan was the perfect mentor for Anakin for a couple of reasons. First of all the chosen one was suppopssed to bring balance to the force, so it was pretty unbalanced having all of those light Jedi running around and only 2 Sith. Secondly, if any one else but Obi Wan had trained him, he might not have gone to the Dark side, he only turned because he thought that Obi Wan was taking the training to slowly and that he didn't trust him, hence he became close to Palpatine who nurtured his impaitientness (is that a word?). So When Yoda said that "his future is covered by the dark side" he knew exactly what he was doing by allowing Obi Wan to train him. Nuff Lost a planet Master Obi-Wan has, how embarrassing. - Yoda Do not count a human dead until you've seen his body, and even then you can make a mistake. - Bene Gesserit saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scathane Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Secondly, if any one else but Obi Wan had trained him, he might not have gone to the Dark side, he only turned because he thought that Obi Wan was taking the training to slowly and that he didn't trust him, hence he became close to Palpatine who nurtured his impaitientness (is that a word?). So When Yoda said that "his future is covered by the dark side" he knew exactly what he was doing by allowing Obi Wan to train him. I believe that Anakin would have turned to the Dark Side regardless of his mentor. The instable factor is in Anakin, not in the rest, although Obi-Wan's mentoring may have sped it up. I think the only way to have kept Anakin from the Dark Side would have been not to train him, but then again, in that case you run the risk that the Sith find him and they train him... By the way: you're saying that Yoda deliberately steered Anakin toward the Dark Side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK421 Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 One bad thing for Anakin, and the council knew that too, is to not let him see his mother. Mostly his mother is responsible for his instableness. Rogue planet is some years after TPM, and Negotiations on Ansion a few days before AOTC By the way, did someone read Cloak of deception? It's a cool book! Z'anthr saves the world. Sorry about the mess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trejiuvanat Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 I haven't read Cloak, I haven't read Prequel EU, basically because I don't like the prequels, i'll wait till zahn's contribution to the prequel EU to start reading it, or Stackpole... who will definetely bridge the prequels with the new rep era... http://www.swrebellion.com/~jahled/Trej/banner.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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