Yuuzhan Vong Theoretical Question

[angelus512]

I was just wondering everybodies thoughts about how the situation would be if it was

 

Yuuzhan Vong vs Emperor, Vader and the Empire at the height of its powers.

 

As opposed to what really happened with

 

Yuuzhan Vong vs New Republic

 

Me personally I've no real idea but I might be inclined to suggest the Empire would have fared better if for no other reason than Palpatine and Vader probably using the Dark Side heavily.

Even though Yuuzhan Vong can't be touched by the force.

 

Just curious to hear thoughts.

[BadSamaritan]

Already been discussed heavily.

 

My thought is that the Empire would have just thrown their "Uber-warfleet-of-never-endingness" at them, and stomped them out of existance as they tried to get a foothold. Especially if they utilized Thrawn and Force Storms.

[Guest JediIgor]

Please, please, use the search button. I think we arrived at the general concensus that the Empire would crush them like little insects.

[Guest Scathane]

Now what was the thingy about Yuuzhan Vong and the force?

[Mad78]

All I know is that we decided that the Empire at its full strenght would have demolished the Yuuzhan Vong Armada.

[DarthTofu]

Now what was the thingy about Yuuzhan Vong and the force?

 

I never finished reading the books (****ing library doesn't carry them), but in Star by Star I think it was, (Spoiler for those who are not up to this point): Jaina turns to the dark side and fries a random Yuzhan Vong. So they can be touched by the force, just not felt by it.

[Defender_16]

The last time we had this descussion was in the "Battle for Coruscant Imperial NJO Era." In which we tried to conceptualise an alternate time line in which the Empire won the Galactic Civil War.

http://www.swrebellion.com/forums/postt2883.html

 

(I soon realised that it becomes a major issue on when and how the Rebellion is defeated. )

 

Of course with that last debate what I was mainly trying to do was force a mass conflict at Coruscant between Vong and Imp forces.

 

(I got bored and never finished my full tactical analysis.) I did find out that it would be unlikely but not impossible to force that kind of comflict. And since we never got arround to actuall 'fair fight' we never figured out what would really happen.

 

Inevitably the descussion was reduced to "PWNED BY TEH D3AtH S7AR(s)!"

EDIT:

*Pulls out the Defibrillator*

Well angelus? Shall we revive it?

 

I've just worked out some Empire alternate Time Line Options.

[Guest Scathane]

So they can be touched by the force, just not felt by it.

Which would mean that both Vader and Palpatine would have severe drawbacks with regard to their normal way of handling and - mainly - anticipating and foreseeing things, right?

[DarthTofu]

I don't know. Luke recieved some wierd vision thing where he managed to realize that the Yuzhan Vong were using deception and tricking the New Republic, he was just unable to act upon it. Palpy, having engineered the downfall of the Jedi and set his master trap for the Rebellion which failed soley due to bad troops would probably realize any plots the Yuzhan Vong had against him through any visions he had. Also it would be possible to compress the air or something, and, in addition to tis, it would be possible to simply kill by touch according to Star by Star when Kyp first introduces shadow bombs.

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

To get an accurate feel for what wouldv'e happened, you have to go back to ROTJ and decide what happens between Vader Palpy and Luke. Afterwards you need to rewrite 20+ years of Star Wars history. So, Thrawn comes back from the Unknown Regions, what does the Empire do with him? What do people like Kyle Katarn and Corran Horn do? Does Mara Jade leave Imp service? If so, does she join Karrde? Do Han and Leia get married? If so, do they have kids? Are those kids trained? By whom (good Luke, bad Luke, Vader, Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine, someone else)? There are just too many unanswerables to get an accurate read on who wins the battle between Empire and Vong.

[DarthTofu]

Alrighty, then; to simplify things, let's just take it back in time: Middle of the battle at Endor during ROTJ, the Yuzhan Vong suddenly show up witha huge fleet: What happens?

[AdmiralToguroAni]

then it becomes a three-way battle and doesn't really correspond to the Empire's true strength. Instead, lets work with this scenario, as it should help clear some stuff up after a post or two of continuity fixing.

 

End of RoTS. Death Star is being built. Anakin is Vader, Palpy is in charge. All is as the movie shows, except for a couple things:

 

1: Vader's force choke kills Padme, and the twins are never born. Vader still goes "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" after learning, however.

 

2: Obi-Wan dies at some time between RoTS and ANH. Perhaps Vader tracked him down or he got shot in the back by a clone trooper. Either way, he dies and doesn't get involved in any anti-empire attacks.

 

3: Bail Organa and the other senators do not start a formal Rebel Alliance. However, there are still planetary uprisings and such to defeat

 

Now finally, lets assume these things:

 

1: All technology stolen by the rebels (minus the death star plans, so things like X-wings, Nebulons, etc), were still stolen, but this time from pirates, hutts, etc.

 

2: Through one reason or another, the Empire decides to create any technology it would have had before it collapsed (TIE Defender even though there weren't Rebel X-wings).

 

If we do that, I THINK we can get to the Yuuzhan-Vong stage without having the Rebellion. Also, it would seem that Mara Jade would be the emperor's hand because Palpy wouldnt have given a "Kill Luke" order.

[pparis17]

Don't forget about yoda! Also, if the Empire is dominant in this scenario, would that also pave way for a possible alliance and technological exchange with the chiss since palpy had thrawn in his pocket when they joined forces to stop the Republics 'Great expedition' or whatever it was?

[Defender_16]

Empire alternate Time line

 

Options

 

Op-1

-The Empire wins at Yavin. Leia, Luke, Han, Wedge, Gen. Dodana, are all killed.

-Mon Mothma and Garm Bel Iblis both continue their separate Rebellions against the Empire.

 

Op-1.1

-The Empire wins at Yavin. Leia, Luke, Gen. Dodana, are all killed.

-Wedge and the Y-Wing pilot both escape in their damaged ships and rejoin the rebellion elsewhere.

-Variations in which Han doesn't come back to save Luke, or does and gets killed.

-Mon Mothma and Garm Bel Iblis both continue their separate Rebellions against the Empire.

 

Op-2

-The Empire storms Hoth without giving the Rebels time to prepare to escape.

-The main characters are all captured or killed.

-Variations in which part of Rogue squadron escapes.

 

Op-3

-The main characters are all captured or killed at Bespin.

(Techinically the Rebellion could still win at Endor despite this.)

 

Op-4

-Rebellion loses Battle of Endor.

-Luke captured or Killed. Posibility of Vader killed or wounded.

-Variations in which Han, Leia, and some remains of the fleet escape. (A-Wings)

-(Imperial fleet totaly pwns the Ssi-ruuk.)

 

Op-5

-Empire loses at Endor but does not fragment. (Unlikley)

 

Op-5.1

-Empire loses at Endor but does not fragment. (Unlikley)

-(The Ssi-ruuk still get owned.)

-Rebels and Imps unable to make significant inroads against the other. Stalemate.

 

Op-6

-New Republic takes Coruscant and is decimated by the Krytos plague.

-Empire loyalists massing at Kuat retake Curuscant with little resistance.

 

Op-6.1

-New Republic takes Coruscant and is decimated by the Krytos plague.

-Zsinj takes Coruscant before the Imperial loyalists can. (Wow that would really mess things up when 'ol Palpy comes back.)

 

Op-7

-Thrawn whups 'em.

-Jorus C'boath get's Han and Leia's kids (Now things are really starting to get messed up.)

 

Op-8

-Dark Empire.

-Palpy whups 'em early.

 

Op-8.1

-Dark Empire.

-Palpy whups 'em, but is still forced to take over Baby Anakin Solo.

 

Op-9

-Exar Kun turns the Jedi students to the Dark Dide.

-Luke killed, Kyp becomes the new Lord of the Sith.

-and um... somehow takes over the galaxy? I don't know, if it couldn't get done in Dark Empire it's just not getting done.

 

Op-10

-Some, all, or many of the above.

 

I think it was GAT that pointed out the possibility of an eventual Chiss vs Empire scenario if the Empire continued it's pro-human policies in the unknownregions.

 

The whole creation of a New Sith Order. With the occasional one going rogue and turning Jedi.

 

The methods used by the Vong forces infiltrating and scouting the galaxy before the invasion could turn out differently. Detected by Sith agents before hand? Or going completely unnoticed.

 

Then there's the opening invasion assault. I figured that the Vong could (with proper infiltration and sabotage) conceal the extent of their invasion for the opening three months. Nothing longer than that. Yaga Minor and Bastion have to fall fast, and that's going to draw lots of attention. My analysis suggested disguising the attacks on those two locations to look like they had been hit by extreamist Rebel elements to confuse Imperial scouting parties.

 

The strength of the Sith and the Emperor; the strength of any remaining Rebel elements, and the tactics the Vong decide to use will dramatically effect any outcome.

 

EDIT: Oh yeah forgot; Droid fighters would be much more common and would be likley linked to operate in tandem with human pilots a-la the false 181st squadron assembled by Zsinj.

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

If we're killing off Obi, let's assume that Palpy kills Yoda as well. *Starts weeping after thinking 'I just killed YODA.' * Let's also say that Palpy uses Thrawn to conquer the Unknown Regions.

 

Tarkin brings out the Sun Crusher. He also presents the perfected DEMP gun to the Emporer (it is subsequentely built into all Imperial capital ships VicStar and bigger). Other Superweapons are also developed. (World Devestators, etc.) Imperial strength exceeds what the Vong bring to the galaxy 4:1 because they don't have the 40 year war that results from the Rebel Alliance. Kamino stops being a private enterprise (Palpy refuses to PAY someone to give him a never ending supply of troops).

 

The advance Vong force still gets destroyed, but this time by a Superweapon, which by this time are about as common place through out the Imp fleet as slimy drool coming out of a Hutt's lipless mouth. Sernpidal is still destroyed. The first few battles still go to the Vong, just because of the differences in technology. When the Empire's Chiss scientists, as well as Maw Installations' research group, finds the way to beat the Dovin Basal Shields, the Imps turn the tide of the war. During all of this, Vader participates in MANY battles, both on the ground and in space. In all ground battles, he wades through the Vong, hacking and carving them to pieces. The voxxyn are created to hunt him and all other Sith that have been trained (Katarn, Jade, Nightsisters/Witches of Dathomir, some others are coming to mind, but I can't think of their names). Agent Red is still developed, but this time is IMMEDEATELY put to use. The Vong die but DON'T take Zonama Sekot with them as they don't find it in time.

 

All-in-all the Empire wins, but the 'Vector Prime' sections of the outer- and mid-rims are devestated.

[DarthTofu]

Umm, couple of comments: First off, i have to say: "Oh my god, you killed Yoda! You B*****d!" Now that that's off my chest, what exactly is Agent Red? Are they Palpy's gaurds or something? I never read all of the EU books due to a lack of a decent library around here ...+ And I'm sure as hell not buyin' 'em off of Barnes and Noble!

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

Agent Red (I think that's what it was called anyway) was a neurotoxin developed by a team of New Rep./Chiss scientists (mostly Chiss, but New Rep Intel. had a hand in it, so I included them). It's SOLE purpose was to destroy the Vong and ALL of their bio-tech. All Vong creations (including the Vong themselves) share a specific gene, DNA sequence or something like that. Agent Red was made to target and destroy that specific section of the Vong's (bio-tech's) genetic code.

 

The problem with this was that Zonama Sekot (Zonama being the planet, Sekot being the governing intelligence) was/is the offspring of Yuuzhan'tar. The Ferroans that lived on Zonama's surface are distantly related to the Vong. SO, by using Agent Red to destroy the Vong the Galactic Alliance (the gov't that replaced the New Rep.) runs the risk of killing Zonama and Sekot. The Jedi worried about that because they didn't know what killing such a huge & powerful 'Force-user' would do to the Force as a whole. They were also fulfilling their role as protectors of the innocent (Agent Red being a means of commiting genocide, not just killing the Vong Warrior Class).

 

If Zonama Sekot was killed the Galactic Alliance's only hope of reaching a peaceful conclusion to the war would die with it. THAT was the Jedis' biggest concern.

[pparis17]

All hail Mitth_raw_nuruodo and his vast knowledge of the New Jedi Order Books! I do however, remember the NRI releasing the agent red in 'The Unifying Force' and Shimraa trying to send his infected agents to Zonoma Sekot after he discovered agent red. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Mitth_raw_nuruodo]

Thank you Pparis.

 

You are mostly correct, I'm not sure of the book, It's been too long since I actually read through them to know for certain. It was GAI that released Agent Red. AR DID find its way to Couruscant/Yuuzhan'tar, and it WAS then sent after Zonama Sekot.

 

I'll double check on the book and let everyone know on Thursday at the latest. (Won't be at this computer tomorrow.)

[Defender_16]

There's a problem with Agent Red being used by the Empire. Heck there's a major problem with all of the anti-Vong tech used in the NJO.

- Danni Qui

- Cilghal

- Jania Solo

 

The three people listed above are responsible for a great many number of countermeasure devices and different gadgetly. (As stated in the old thread,) Danni would have died in the initial invasion if not for Jacen Solo feeling her being tortured through the force and rescuing her. Danni was one of the people who made the major breakthrough on Vong DNA analysis possible. I don't doubt that this could be replicated by others but it would take longer. She and Cilghal also developed the Yammosk Jammers.

(I don't think Cilghal would be alive in a pro-Empire timeline.)

Jania Solo pionered the use of "decoy dovin basals" which would latch onto a Vong ship and make the others think it was an enemy.

 

Stutter-fire and proximity void detection for missiles would be achieved by the Empire by the time they realised they were being invaded. Another 2 weeks or so to modify their weapons for best effect.

The Imps will have a major advantage with the gravity-well technology as the New Republic could never afford to build very much of it.

[BadSamaritan]

You know, when it comes to the Galactic Empire never having been defeated vs Vong armada, one vessel would make the Vong shudder in their boots (Or whatever they wear). The Eclipse.

 

Twice the length (at a minumim) of a Super Star Destroyer. Six to ten wings of starfighters. A hull strong enough to ram a Star Destroyer without a dent. Several gravity well projectors. And a superlaser on top of it all.

 

To destroy just one of these vessels, the Vong would have to get within range of it. Before they do, the Eclipse could blast a vew vessels with the superlaser. Then they get in range.

 

Whoops, that is one hell of a sheild system, ain't it? And that is a lot of guns strapped to that hull. Scrap a few more cruisers.

 

Kamikazee starfighters? Uh-oh, that hull is pretty thick. Like flies splattering against a cement wall. Scrap that plan.

 

Wait, are thopse support vessles? I think so. Star Destroyers everywhere!! Vong are screwed now.

 

Ok, that Vong fleet is done. Who's next?

 

Oh yah, to all you Dark Empire haters. There is nothing wrong with the Reborn Emperor story arc. Thank you GL for finally making the prequals worth while to the EU.

[Defender_16]

Vong fighter pilot and commander planning attack on a Star Destroyer as it reverts from hyperspace.

"How do we hurt them worst?" Charat asked.

"Follow me in," Penzak said. "While they're launching. Don't engage the fighters; bait them so they follow us. The ship won't fire on us with the fighters in close proximity. We'll enter their launching bays and destroy the facilities there, then gut the ship from within." He looped arround, rising and angling in toward the ship's bely.

 

I always wanted to do that. Stupid X-wing Alliance where Star Destroyers can shoot through their own hull.

[Stellar_Magic]

I think the anem of what you are talking about isn't Agent Red... It's Alpha Red.

[BadSamaritan]

I think the anem of what you are talking about isn't Agent Red... It's Alpha Red.

 

Gah, I knew something didn't seem right. But Stellar figured it out before I could.

 

Curse you, creater of the Repora, CURSE YOU!!!!

[Stellar_Magic]

Its Rapora BS, and I've been compiling D20 stats for their return in the RPG threads. We'll actually have a real RPG to base it off of.