Count Dooku/Emperor

[DarthTofu]

Yoda log, day 53 "Made friends with the natives I have. Accept me as their own I believe in time they shall" Day 54 "Apparently have diseases I do that immune system theirs can't handle. Dead they all are. Take mud homes for own I shall".

[Darth_Rob]

Day 60: "Very bored, I am."

[Lord_La_forge]

LOL this is fun, but bit off-topic. Still, I would love to see some yoda-talk topic on SWR Let's start a Yoda grammar club, and learn to speak his word

[Ambrose]

getting a little back on topic here...everyone keeps bringing up the Ep 2 final fight of the movie where Dooku tried to crush Ani and Obi with the crane.....keep in mind all he had to do was knock it over where as Yoda had to hold it in mid air and move it far enough to keep the 2 younger jedi from being crushed.....also (not dogging the sith lord here) but Dooku did that to run away from yoda....Yoda trained Dooku and thus knows his moves....plus Yoda was OLD he died at 600 years old and that was only around 20 years after that battle....Yoda old and still held his own against his former student......with the all might Great Frog Technique lol I mean come on I started to get dizy from Yodas bouncing everywhere so I can only imagine what it would be like trying to fight him lol

[AdmiralToguroAni]

On Yoda being old, I think that he and Dooku were proportionally the same age. Also, just as Anakin and Obi knew each other's moves on Mustafar, I think Dooku knew most of Yoda's as well, and thats why the Great Frog technique didn't work very well. Judging only from what we've seen in the movies, I think Dooku could have taken Yoda in a fresh fight

[Darth_Rob]

I do not think age has anything to do with a Jedi's fighting prowess. Much like "size matters not", I do not think that age matters as much either, until they are REALLY old. Take Obi-Wan in ANH. He appears older than Dooku was in AotC, but he was capable of facing Vader. And even Palpatine was able to take Mace Windu (a spring chicken compared to ol' Palpy). The Force can keep flowing through a Jedi and allow him/her to do amazing things, despite their aging bodies.

[Calis]

I don't think that Dooku could've taken Yoda in a fair fight, but then I've read Yoda: Dark Rendevouz which clearly states that on equal ground Mace Windu would be Dooku's equal, that kinda implies that Yoda is the greater fighter of the two.

[Darth_Rob]

Does that book take place before or after AotC and RotS?

[Calis]

It's something like 32 months after AotC and 4 months before RotS

[AdmiralToguroAni]

Anakin said something like "As Wise as master Yoda and as Powerful as Master Windu." I wonder if that could be construed to mean that Windu could beat Yoda in a straight up fight. It wouldn't surprise me. They both lost to Palpy, and if we're to believe that Palpy wasn't pretending to lose(which is debatable either way), then Windu is definately stronger than Yoda. If we're to believe that he was pretending, then we know that he didn't use his full power on Windu, but we have no idea how that would have went anyway. What we do know is that Palpy barely broke a sweat vs. Yoda, so judging only from the movies, we can probably say that Windu is either as strong or stronger than Yoda. Thats in terms of fighting prowess though. Windu doesn't anticipate deception, while Yoda does. In fact, had it been Yoda in the Windu vs. Palpy fight and Windu in the Yoda vs. Palpy fight, theres a good chance Palpy would lose.

 

So then, if the above is true (which is all debatable as its just conjecture), we can say that Palpy/Yoda/Dooku/Windu were all of about the same ability in a fair fight. To narrow that down to two, Palpy used trickery to get rid of the two who were most vulnerable to deception.

[DarthTofu]

I think that we have tot ake unfair tactics into our debate as well. As wise people have said in various ways, "It doesn't matter if the other guy cheated. You can't bitch about him cheating, becuase you're dead."

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I agree to that in some respects. If you were to ask "Who is the most effective Sith Lord?" then Palpy wins by a mile. If you ask who the stronger fighter is, then I'd say Dooku can edge out. In a battle where they are both facing off (like Dooku vs. Yoda on Geonosis or Yoda Vs. Palpy on Coruscant) I'd say Dooku can win because the emperor can't manipulate his way out of it. But Palpy is a better Sith Lord and Yoda is a better Jedi because they're smarter, not necessarily because they're stronger

[Darth_Rob]

Wiser in the ways of the Force they are, yes.

[DarthTofu]

I suppose that you have to go with the "In-the-long-run" strategy. Take America, for instance: A bunch of rag-tag soldiers and some French melitia vs. Britain with tons of soldiers. Through superior strategy they managed to win. So I guess that Palpy would win on that front unless you want to go with Yoda having forseen that Luke would come to overthrow Palpy and not wanting to upset that prophesy thingy-majiga-bob...

[Paul]

Had you read R of the Sith as I have twice now, you would realize that Yoda admits to himself that Palpatine and the Sith have evolved and are more powerful than the jedi. Yoda clearly states he has hands down lost, unlike what we see in the movie. Also Dooku realizes that he is no match for Anikan/Vader once Anikan uses his anger. The book is a mutch more complete picture of the three or four days that bring Palpatine into power than the movie. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to fully understand how Palpatine/Sidious has lured Anikan into being a Sith including the fact that he knew Anikan and Padme were married from the get go. _Grand Moff Conway

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I wouldn't disagree with that. Theres a whole bunch of stuff in the EU, Novelizations of movies, and other things that can say a lot. However, I'm talking about who wins only in context of the movies. If we get into the EU, novelizations, etc, then Palpatine in his clone body would probably destroy anyone this side of Exar Kun

[Paul]

Unfortunately he also had to deal with clone madness at that point. Since the novels for the movies add important facts and are included as canon material at SW.com I tend to use them- up to Thrawn anyway. Most of what came later I disregard.- Grand Moff Conway

[AdmiralToguroAni]

The way I see it, even the Holiday Special is canon. Heck, even the Ewok Adventures is Canon. If Lucas's company approves it and doesn't say its not in continuity, then I suppose it is. However, the "Who is strongest" debate here is taken only from the movies, that way everyone is on the same page and you don't miss a crucial fact if you didnt read Dark Tide Rising or something from the Vong books (are those any good, btw?)

[DarthTofu]

The way I see it, even the Holiday Special is canon. Heck, even the Ewok Adventures is Canon. If Lucas's company approves it and doesn't say its not in continuity, then I suppose it is. However, the "Who is strongest" debate here is taken only from the movies, that way everyone is on the same page and you don't miss a crucial fact if you didnt read Dark Tide Rising or something from the Vong books (are those any good, btw?)

 

YES!!! THEY ARE VERY GOOD!!11111

[Paul]

I on the other hand found the whole Vong era to be uninteresting.-Grand Moff Conway

[Jahled]

I on the other hand found the whole Vong era to be uninteresting.-Grand Moff Conway

 

I was at pains which of the three posts you just wrote I agreed on most, so I just quoted the last. I enjoyed the Thrawn books when they came out, but have since more or less given up on Star Wars expanded stuff, this Vong stuff included for the little i've been exposed to. It's not just the badly written stuff i'm constantly reminded is now offical canon, but the shear stupidity that all this entails. So I go a step further than Paul, and think by and large the entire expanded universe to be uninteresting...

[AdmiralToguroAni]

I remember reading some of them when I was a lot younger, like 12 or so. The only one that I really liked, and I liked it better than the prequel trilogy, admittedly, was Shadows of the Empire.

[Evaders99]

I don't agree at all. Some of the NJO books are the best written books in the Star Wars universe. I loved Star by Star and Destiny's Way. If you can get past Vector Prime, then it becomes much better. Some books may not be that spectacular (Balance Point was pointless), but the series as a whole is one of the best in story flow and continuity. It connects many parts of the Star Wars universe that would otherwise never be written about. Further writers have gone to do other Star Wars books in the prquel era, including Shatterpoint and the ROTS novel.

[Paul]

I pointed out that The Revenge of the Sith novel was great, I just don't like how most of the EU is written as the rebels/NR must win and that Vong stuff was crap in my opinion. And yes I did give it a chance. I did however enjoy the Thrawn duology Specter of the Past, Vision of the Future- though I was disappointed that Thrawns clone was killed off. -Grand Moff Conway

[Darth_Rob]

Those were the last two books I read, and I found them great! Zahn is pure genious!