Jahled Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 ...and that has to be the best post on the subject I have read; balanced, reasoned, and taking into account numerous politcal arguments and alignments, and the transparancy they really are. There's no 'nobility' or 'rightiousness' here; everyone has their own hidden/not so hidden interests. The Americans do, the British do, the French do, the Germans do, and the Arab states do. It's called politics and it's all hypocritical lies and bullshit. That's the cold reality of the world. To believe otherwise is to be a fool. The fact that the United States requires 20,000,000 barrels of oil a day to be imported into the country is a chilling reality. The present instability in Venezuala, I believe the world's fourth largest oil-exporter, also cannot be ignored. The projected import requirement of oil for the United-States by 2020 is 29,000,000 barrels a day. Dah! The British North-Sea reserves have just about been used up. Economies need energy to power them. Germany and France also need oil-contracts; they're also looking out for themselves. Such is the ruthlessness of the world's stage. On the other hand, America and the British are being so bellicose because they believe the Iraqi's are evading the efforts of Hans Blix's inspectors. Iraq has steadfastly denied the US to use it's spyplanes...emm...I wonder why? Thousands of tons of chemical-weapons remain unaccounted for. Where are they and who's hands are they in? What troubles me, is that Iraq quite simply isn't a haven for Islamic-fascists! (Except for the areas declaired 'no-fly zones!') Compared it's neigbours, Iraq is one of the most tolerant places of religious belief. Tariq Aziss (or however you spell is name) is a christian! If the democratic west, that we enjoy living in, was really concerned about freedom, liberty, and democracy; why has the Islamic-middle east been allowed to exist?It's because of the black-gold in the ground, called oil. Gank,, don't you even dare claim any moral high-ground on this issue. Your passionate attacks at the United States have been heeded and noted, but shut the fuck up. Where do you think German industry invests it's money? Do you think Deutsche Bank strengthens the German economy by investing in Norway? I think not. So hang up your German hang up. I'm not into arguments of 'well we created and armed Saddam Hussain!' Either. Yeah, well the west-US,UK, France, Germany, did! During the cold war. I sure as hell wouldn't have the liberty to be typing what I am under commumism. Ultimately, it's all bullshit. I can't take it seriously. I look at pictures of young men burnt alive in cars and tanks from 1991...and I just despair at humanity's inability to grasp the fact it's adrift in a life boat called Earth floating through space. Those guys who just died in the shuttle apparently said how beautiful God's creation looks from above. http://www.jahled.co.uk/smallmonkeywars.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gank Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Gank,, don't you even dare claim any moral high-ground on this issue. Your passionate attacks at the United States have been heeded and noted, but shut the fuck up. Where do you think German industry invests it's money? Do you think Deutsche Bank strengthens the German economy by investing in Norway? I think not. So hang up your German hang up. What are you talking about, I am not trying to take any moral high ground, I am merely pointing out its pretty hypocritical of the US and UK governments to try and do so. And dont tell me to shut the fuck up, we're all entitled to our opinions and views and if you dont like mine dont read them. And wtf is my German hangup supposed to be? The only times I've mentioned Germany was when somebody compared Saddam to Hitler and when Dinochick pulled the we saved your asses shit. How the fuck did you figure I have a hangup over Germany from that and what the fuck has where German industry invests its money got to do with anything? Other than that you both make some very good points but its probably best to lay this one to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahled Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Agreed. No offence intended. I'm not entirely sure whether i'm sure what I said. Such is the mysterious ways of Jahled; dark-lord of gibberish. http://www.jahled.co.uk/smallmonkeywars.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisMiggell Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Fair does chaps. Anyway, for an interesting point of view, check out http://www.megafortress.com It's Dale Brown's site, an american author you might have heard of. You may disagree with him, but he speaks his mind, and does seem to be making an effort to back himself up with evidence, and perhaps most importantly, he retains a large degree of objectivity. IMHO. Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine... Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la Not gone, merely marching far away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahled Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Good post Elvis, Dale Brown's comments make some interesting reading and I recomend everybody interested in this subject giving themselves ten or so minutes to visit his site, via Elvis's link. Gank: Sorry if I came across strong, it was partly in irritation to the language and tone you've been communicating with our American brethren here and in the other topic on this subject. Sure, you're entitled to your opinion, but try and moderate your language otherwise the forums quickly degenerate (like some other Star Wars sites!), and people's posts become a sprawl of crap as opposed to the surprisingly high-level of wit we enjoy here! (ok..I admit to not being entirely guiltless here-but heck it's ok to remind oneself from time to time!) Anyway, as you may have figured by my post, i'm in serious pains on this issue. I see hypocracy and self-interest from every possible stance, and what I was trying to put across is that the Franco-German axis is not concerned about the sanctity of human life any more than the US-British axis; or the Russians, or the Muslims countries in the Middle-East. Everybody is looking out for themselves. The looser is the burnt-out corpse slowly being eaten by the desert; whether some hapless Iraqi conscript, an American marine, or a civilian. Humanity's farce at civilization is as pathetic as it is etched in sorrow and pain, as are the ugly lies and hidden-agendas of those 'statesmen' gathered around their debating-tables. In this context it's clearly about business contracts. Foreign-office diplomats spend more time these days promoting their country's business' than much else. When Iraq is swiftly defeated and the spoils are carved up and distributed to those unseen-leaders of the world these days; international-corporations, that's when the real victors of the slaughter will become apparent. Not that most of us will know by that stage, our attention will have been diverted elsewhere, or more likely the public are generally not educated enough to see how these corporation conduct their affairs and who exactly owns this or owns that. The whole exercise will go down under the rouse of restoring 'democracy and freedom' to the Iraqi people, and sure they'll probably get off on their new-found freedom to exert their fundermental human right of free-speech. They'll be surrounded by a multitude of tyrants and dictators, but that doesn't bother the west because the countries are just about stable enough for western business to invest it's money. It is human-civilization primordial. The scenario has been the same for five thousand years. We're just better at doing it these days! I doubt we'll be seeing five US aircraft-carriers floating off the coast of North-Korea. I doubt we'll be seeing allied-armadas off the coast of China, Cuba, Pakistan, Burma, or any other countries seriously lacking in human rights and the absense of democracy. In this context, the shuffeling of the statesmen from France, Germany, the US, Russia, the UK etc break down into meaninglessness, debating to promote themselves. Only politics can create a more base and ruthlessly-blunt tapestry of human-stupidity. And the threat of terrorist attacks? Yes, it's a very real concern only a fool would shy from. I suspect i'm not alone in taking the threat from lunitics bred in dictatorships like Saudi Arabia or Kuwait more of a concern than the tossers lining their own pockets in the administration of Iraq, who have everything to loose when the West removes them from power. Personally, i'm concerned about what all this oil-consumption is doing to our beautiful little planet. This is not a dig at the US, but it's the only statistic I know off the top of my head! 20,000,000 barrels of oil a day is required to be imported by the US a day. That's a monstrous figure! Expand that to include the rest of the world and the figure becomes mind-boggling! The world is clearly suffering and subsequently changing due to how we're ultimately, living our lives. The real terrorist threat is ourselves. http://www.jahled.co.uk/smallmonkeywars.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gank Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 No offence taken but please note that some of the Americans who have been replying here haven't been using nice tones with me either. Certainly my comments could be worded better but so could others. Anyways well said on the rest of it, not a great fan of Dale Browns but I do agree with some of the things he says. We got a good example of what all this scaremongering and hype in the media can do though, what was probably a pretty normal occurance (if you have as many fights in nightclubs over there as we do here) resulted in mass panic and 20 dead. Not very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahled Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 A sad but fair point. I assumed you were German, I know not why. It doesn't matter. You might as well be Mongolian like me, and we can crack open some lagers together on the steppe and sit back, watch a the sunset unfold, and chuckle together about how it all might have been...before gold out-valued bread in ancient times. Vanity..I believe is Satan's most favored sin.... http://www.jahled.co.uk/smallmonkeywars.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisMiggell Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Yeh, Gank, did they really lock the doors? And from what i read it sounds like they sprayed CS gas out like they were trying to put out a FIRE, the implication was there was a fine mist throughout the entire club, just to stop one fight. It seems a little heavy handed. Or has the British press once again spectacularly exaggerated an event in terms of what actually happened? Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine... Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la Not gone, merely marching far away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UntimelyDemise Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 I'm glad to see the conversation in this forum has taken a more civilized tone. Gank: I fully support your expression of opinion, whether I agree or not. No hard feelings, okay? Everyone: I could go into a lengthy discussion of media bias, but I won't. Many things are blown out of proportion when they hit the media, who are more concerned with getting advertising profits than they are with reporting facts. Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.--Napoleon Bonaparte I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.--Robert McCloskey, State Department spokesman Support the USA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gank Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 No prob, untimely, I've taken a lot worse flak than on here for my opinions Elvis, the story we got over here was pepper gas was used to break up a fight between 2 girls and mass hysteria followed when people seen the spray. As for locking the doors from what I understand all enterences except the front were locked but undoubtably the media will be taking every rumour and embellishing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UntimelyDemise Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 That's the story I've heard, but I also heard the club was operating the second floor illegally (health code violation). BTW, I can't blame people for running when they got a whiff of pepper spray. That stuff is really powerful! I don't think there was really that much of a "chemical attack" scare as much as people just trying to get away from the pepper spray. Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.--Napoleon Bonaparte I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.--Robert McCloskey, State Department spokesman Support the USA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisMiggell Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 That sounds fairly realistic. A tragedy nonetheless. Stalin was wrong, he said "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic", well everyone one of those million is a single death for a family somewhere to contend with. And from what i've heard, Saddam is responsible for more than a million deaths just because he didn't like certain people. I saw some pictures today, they were of a twelve year old who had had her hands surgically removed because her cousin who lived in a different part of the country stole a loaf of bread. I don't need to say anymore. Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine... Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la Not gone, merely marching far away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahled Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Just found this on the internet; it made me laugh lots. Terry Jones (from Monty Python) writes to The Observer: Sunday January 26, 2003 The Observer I'm really excited by George Bush's latest reason for bombing Iraq: he's running out of patience. And so am I! For some time now I've been really pissed off with Mr Johnson, who lives a couple of doors down the street. Well, him and Mr Patel, who runs the health food shop. They both give me queer looks, and I'm sure Mr Johnson is planning something nasty for me, but so far I haven't been able to discover what. I've been round to his place a few times to see what he's up to, but he's got everything well hidden. That's how devious he is. As for Mr Patel, don't ask me how I know, I just know - from very good sources - that he is, in reality, a Mass Murderer. I have leafleted the street telling them that if we don't act first, he'll pick us off one by one.. Some of my neighbours say, if I've got proof, why don't I go to the police? But that's simply ridiculous. The police will say that they need evidence of a crime with which to charge my neighbours. They'll come up with endless red tape and quibbling about the rights and wrongs of a pre-emptive strike and all the while Mr Johnson will be finalising his plans to do terrible things to me, while Mr Patel will be secretly murdering people. Since I'm the only one in the street with a decent range of automatic firearms, I reckon it's up to me to keep the peace. But until recently that's been a little difficult. Now, however, George W. Bush has made it clear that all I need to do is run out of patience, and then I can wade in and do whatever I want! And let's face it, Mr Bush's carefully thought-out policy towards Iraq is the only way to bring about international peace and security. The one certain way to stop Muslim fundamentalist suicide bombers targeting the US or the UK is to bomb a few Muslim countries that have never threatened us. That's why I want to blow up Mr Johnson's garage and kill his wife and children. Strike first! That'll teach him a lesson. Then he'll leave us in peace and stop peering at me in that totally unacceptable way. Mr Bush makes it clear that all he needs to know before bombing Iraq is that Saddam is a really nasty man and that he has weapons of mass destruction - even if no one can find them. I'm certain I've just as much justification for killing Mr Johnson's wife and children as Mr Bush has for bombing Iraq. Mr Bush's long-term aim is to make the world a safer place by eliminating 'rogue states' and 'terrorism'. It's such a clever long-term aim because how can you ever know when you've achieved it? How will Mr Bush know when he's wiped out all terrorists? When every single terrorist is dead? But then a terrorist is only a terrorist once he's committed an act of terror. What about would-be terrorists? These are the ones you really want to eliminate, since most of the known terrorists, being suicide bombers, have already eliminated themselves. Perhaps Mr Bush needs to wipe out everyone who could possibly be a future terrorist? Maybe he can't be sure he's achieved his objective until every Muslim fundamentalist is dead? But then some moderate Muslims might convert to fundamentalism. Maybe the only really safe thing to do would be for Mr Bush to eliminate all Muslims? It's the same in my street. Mr Johnson and Mr Patel are just the tip of the iceberg. There are dozens of other people in the street who I don't like and who - quite frankly - look at me in odd ways. No one will be really safe until I've wiped them all out. My wife says I might be going too far but I tell her I'm simply using the same logic as the President of the United States. That shuts her up. Like Mr Bush, I've run out of patience, and if that's a good enough reason for the President, it's good enough for me. I'm going to give the whole street two weeks - no, 10 days - to come out in the open and hand over all aliens and interplanetary hijackers, galactic outlaws and interstellar terrorist masterminds, and if they don't hand them over nicely and say 'Thank you', I'm going to bomb the entire street to kingdom come. It's just as sane as what George W. Bush is proposing - and, in contrast to what he's intending, my policy will destroy only one street. Terry Jones [/url] http://www.jahled.co.uk/smallmonkeywars.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UntimelyDemise Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Hehehe...that's cute! That's just about as funny as the Holy Grail! Oh, wait...he seriously believes that? Hmmm...I guess if he really knew what was going on, he might think differently. Hey, lets send ole Terry over to Iraq and let him live for a while. What's that? He's too comfortable in his digs to go live in Iraq? Well, I guess so! But he seems to really like Iraq and it's leader! I guess he'll just have to suffer away. It's a shame really. He could see if Saddam would let him show Monty Python movies on the state-run television station. It would be scheduled between the state-mandated "Praise Saddam" show and the "America is Satan" show! Now that's what I call a ratings sweep! Oh, yes...there is only one television channel. News and other television shows from the West are outlawed...well, at least his views fit right in! Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.--Napoleon Bonaparte I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.--Robert McCloskey, State Department spokesman Support the USA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gank Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 ROFLMAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahled Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 ROFLMAO Help! I don't understand 'internet chat language!' Please use English! http://www.jahled.co.uk/smallmonkeywars.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UntimelyDemise Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Rolling On Floor Laughing My Ass Off ROFLMAO Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.--Napoleon Bonaparte I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.--Robert McCloskey, State Department spokesman Support the USA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gank Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Hehehe...that's cute! That's just about as funny as the Holy Grail! Oh, wait...he seriously believes that? Hmmm...I guess if he really knew what was going on, he might think differently. Hey, lets send ole Terry over to Iraq and let him live for a while. What's that? He's too comfortable in his digs to go live in Iraq? Well, I guess so! But he seems to really like Iraq and it's leader! I guess he'll just have to suffer away. It's a shame really. He could see if Saddam would let him show Monty Python movies on the state-run television station. It would be scheduled between the state-mandated "Praise Saddam" show and the "America is Satan" show! Now that's what I call a ratings sweep! Oh, yes...there is only one television channel. News and other television shows from the West are outlawed...well, at least his views fit right in! I think your missing the point, hes not saying Saddams the good guy, hes saying Bush isnt either. If the US is so worried about human rights abuse and violations of UN resolutions why aren't they doing anything about Turkey, Saudi Arabia or Israel? Surely you can understand why nobody outside the US believes these are actually the reasons you want Saddam out? Besides do you honestly think the Iraqi people look upon you as their saviors given how many of them your country has killed? Even Iraqi opposition leaders in exile have said they do not want the US to invade. It may interest you to know however that a link has been found between Iraq and Al Queda http://jehat.dk/iraq.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahled Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Whilst i've sort of got to agree with the objective of what you've saying, dude, i've got to disagree with you on the point the the Iraqi opposition being opposed to a US led assault! I watched Channel Four news tonight where there was a quite frankly, brilliant interview with the former head of Saudi intelligence, followed by yet another Iraqi in exile stating his supporting for Blair's stance on Iraq. Sorry dude, but I can't agree with you that the Iraqi opposition are opposed to military intervention. They, for one, are simply to fragmented to come up with such a clear and convicted statement of policy! They know that the war will be over in moments, despite what dudes like Tony Ben threatened in 1991 and about Afganistan; they were essentially wrong! No long war. We can't ignore the fact. It will be same this around. Under whatever guise, the US led assualt will succeed in liberating Iraq. It's so called elite republican-guard will either melt before the onslaught of the US/British forces or be squarely destroyed by superior weaponry and more importantly training, as the regular army will simply loose the will to fight, like they did las time around. The former head of Saudi Intelligence said as much on Channel Four news, it's reasonably obvious the reality will happen. The Iraqi opposition know that Iraq is going to crumble under a US/British assault. Given the French have skillfully manuevered one of their aircraft-carriers into the gulf, it can be reasonably obvious where the great 'peace-makers' of the moment have sited their back up plan. And to think, the French have more Nuclear warheads than the Chinese... Yet again, I utter the mantra, it's all bullshit. http://www.jahled.co.uk/smallmonkeywars.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisMiggell Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Jahled, i think you helped me make my point. What Terry Jones has done is brought it down to a personal level. Terry Jones has made what seems to be a very idiotic story, the situation he writes about seems absolutely ridculous. But it's exactly what's going on in the world. Now, i'm willing to concede that ridiculous things can and do happen. But we need to be careful. It might only appear to be ridculous and really be very serious, or it might really all be a very silly course of action on the part of various leaders. Me, i think we're buggered. Even the purist of politicians has to be influenced by situations that should have nothing to do with the problem, like popularity, after all, what's the point if you're going to start doing the right thing, only to be chucked out halfway through because you're not satisfying the right people. I think that whatever happens it's not going to work out. Until the entire population of the world gets their priorities sorted out and stops putting the needs of number one first, there will never be a satifactory resolution to any conflict. Not that there should be a conflict in the first place. Unfortunately we don't live in anything approximating an ideal or perfect world. Elvismiggell. Strike me down and i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine... Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la Not gone, merely marching far away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gank Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Jahled, it would seem that whether or not they support the US invasion, the opposition arent going to get a lookin anyways http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,899986,00.html 4th paragraph down. As to whether the Iraqis will surrender quickly or not, that remains to be seen. Personally I doubt very much they'd accept an American military government, none of the ethnic groups in Iraq are too keen on the US. The Shias are closer to Iran than Washington, the majority of the Sunnis support Saddam and the US have betrayed the Kurds time and time again. Not to mention the fact that the US has continually blocked the lifting of sanctions which have killed over a million. But like you say, unless Iraq gets very lucky theres not really much doubt on the outcome. And I dont see why people are bashing France, what has it done except say that war should only be used as a last resort. Nobodys saying Saddam shouldnt go, they're just saying theres no need to take half the population with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahled Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Gank! My original misunderstanding with you was chiefly concerned with the Franco-German motives in all this political rubbish! I had somehow assumed you were defending their alignment in this issue, and my argument was that they are not concerned with the wellfare of the Iraqi-population anymore than the Bush/Blair stance! President Chirac shaking hands with President Mugarby yesterday has to go down as one of the most blatent examples of French-mercenary politics I have ever seen. Shame on France! I guess we'll be seeing the appeal buckets out in the streets for the victims of yet another African famine because of one African leader's inability to see the value of international-trade. Zimbabwe was once termed the 'bread basket of Southern-Africa.' No more. Rape, torture, murder, and political intimidation have replaced democracy and an economy there. And Chirac shakes hands with him. A rather obvious demonstration of France's real intentions on the world stage. Self-interest. In the context of Iraq I don't think we can take France's efforts for peace any more seriously than we can the excuses of the US & the Uk for Iraq's oil. It's pathetic. If you want weapons of mass destruction, i'll tell you where they are. They're simmering in the shadows of every Muslim country disgusted at their own government's complience at what they perceive as giving into the west's excuse for fair economic trade, which quite frankly is crap! The entire middle-east is one sorry excuse of dictatorship. It was almost understandable in the cold-war when the world was fighting against the Soviet-fascists (who by the way Gank murdered or were directly responsible for the deaths of more of their own popluation than Hitler!), but given the socialist's-collapse, why, but for oil, have these petty-little fascist regimes been allowed to continue in our newly-found world of liberty and democracy? But for the stability of oil production. A strong moral argument when you look at it in detail, isn't it? If you wave they flag of morality be sure not to pause in a world so devoid of liberty. I for one will support every effort of American-led-restoration of civil liberty throughout the world, with the promise of democracy and free-speech and expression. I will not, however, if it is a base-desire to command oil. This perspective I rather think is where those nasty-little terrorists who murdered all those people in the twin towers were comming from. Those scum didn't represent a nation, they were convicted enough to kill themseves, and thousands of innocent people, on some kind of independant conviction. In this instance, it will have had nothing to do with Iraq! My underlining-point is we must be noble! But we must conduct ourselves with the the definition of nobility, not behave as if all we desire is commercial interests! Because when we do all that happens is give ammunition to loads of loosers prepared to kill themselves as they murder innocents, all for some Iman's promise of 'pubescent girls in heaven,'to reward their sacrifice. http://www.jahled.co.uk/smallmonkeywars.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gank Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Jahled, for someone who readily agrees that most of what we get from the media is a load of bollox, your very quick to repeat what they say. What are Frances ulterior motives? Why are you saying shame on them for saying international law must be followed? All they are saying in regards to the Iraq issue is war is a last resort and should not happen until all other options are exhausted. Frankly I dont see what they are gaining by saying this and I would be obliged if you would tell me. As for Mubage, I suggest you look to other sources of information than your media and government. whlie I dont defend the man in any way your country has greatly exgerrated the situatio n there, possibly some hang up over Rhodesia. Take the case of the cricket match, your players dont want to go, the international cricket board says there is absolutly no danger to them, even South African Intelligence, no friend of Mugabes, says there is no danger, but still they wont go. Your government is taking things and blowing them out of proportion lately, look at Bolivia, a few riots on the streets over tax raises and your government declares it a no go area, or what about the tanks patrolling an airport to catch a man with a grenade in his luggage. Pure scaremongering. And I'm sure Mugabe does see the value of international trade, he just doesnt want to see his country ran by US and british companys, and if you knew anything about his countrys history you'd know why. You say you'd like to see the US spread democracy to Iraq? why then do you not want to see it spread in Saudi Arabia, their troops are already there. If you'd read the link above you'd see that current US plans for Iraq involve leaving the best part of Saddams regime intact and replacing him with a US military governer, not much of a democracy by any stretch of the imagination. As for the rest of the middle east, one of the best places to live at the minute is Iran, a country labelled by the US as evil. I have actually been there and my neighbour used to work there on the oil rigs before the revolution, and hes told me some pretty nasty things about the Shahs regime. Which had heavy US backing. The US isnt interested in spreading liberty and equality around the globe, at least not their government anyways, if so why did the back the Indonesian invasion of East Timor?, why do they support Israels eviction of Palestinians from there homes?, why did they welcome a recent military coup against the elected leader in Venesuala? Which failed when the army turned their guns on their own generals I might add. Why do they back governments like Burma, Saudi Arabia etc etc? They dont want to see democracy and peace about the globe, all they want is regimes which help them get rich quick. They can say whatever they want but their actions say different. And quite frankly I fail to see why someone who came to power by rigging elections would want to spread democracy. As for your last remark about pubescent girls, your just spouting the same shit they feed you on Sky news, its virgins not pubescent girls, and while they may mean the same thing in the west in Muslim cultures they certainly do not. Suggesting a thing like paedophilia to a muslim, at least any I've met, would most likely leave you in pretty bad shape if not dead, so its highly unlikely these religious fanatics are going to believe something they've been told all their lives is evil is theres to do at will. What would your reaction be if a priest told you when you get to heaven you can shag all the kids you like? Oh and Iman means Faith, I think your looking for a different word. Oh and while I agree with you about nobility, that is certainly not the way the US is going. Thjey have even said if hit with NBC weapons the WILL use a nuke. So thousands if not millions of Iraqis will die at the hands in retaliation for acts they did not commit nor ahadany say in. Hardly noble now is it. Also kinda goes against what they are saying about saving the Iraqis from Saddam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahled Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Powerful stuff, Gank. It's going to take a while to digest all of your comments. I'm a little disappointed, and hurt, that you appear to have assumed what i was implying is that all Muslims are into child abuse, which I most certainty was not! The comment was made to underline the shear stupidity of suicide bombers thinking and actions. In reflection, I could have composed better words. http://www.jahled.co.uk/smallmonkeywars.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gank Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Aye sorry if I offended you I got a bit carried away there, but your choice of words was pretty bad, and I dont really like to see Islam portrayed in a bad light. Its actually quite a good religion if you read up on it and most of its folowers actually adhere to its principals as opposed to here in the west, where most of us simply pay lip service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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