hostage situation is moscow theater

[Guest JediIgor]

I will also have to make a little spetznaz poster in the near few days...

 

You guys have heard about the crisis in Moscow right? Yesterday, Spetznaz stormed the building and rescued all but 30 of the hostages (who died).

 

Go to http://www.nemesis.com/spetznaz.html to see what I'm talking about (of course mine will be at least 150 dpi, so I can put it onto my locker)

[Venix]

118 now, not 30.

[Guest JediIgor]

See, the news sources are misleading... Only 30 died DURING the raid, but the toll is 118 TOTAL.

 

Just thought I should clear that up,

 

Americans always trying to make others look bad... tsk tsk

[Venix]

Who cares, 118 people are dead, thats what counts.

[Guest JediIgor]

That's true, but at least only one hostage was shot

[the_mask]

Yup, but no one will tell what that gas was, although I can imagine a few

[UntimelyDemise]

Well, now we know what it was...

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-462171,00.html

 

The problem is, with all the innocents dead, the Chechens got what they wanted by the Russians' own hands...

 

Damn, I hate the world the way it is now...

[ElvisMiggell]

Yeah well i think the Russians did the right thing. Although 118 people ended up dead, that's a lot less than if they had executed the hostages. And nobody has said how powerful the bombs were, so we don't know that they couldn't have damaged the surrounding area too, thus killing more innocents.

[UntimelyDemise]

I agree the Russians needed to do something, but gassing everyone and then not letting the doctors know was probably a mistake...

 

The gas was probably not a bad idea, but medical treatment could not be given which was wrong.

[Guest JediIgor]

What they should've done, IMHO, is treated everyone with anti-gas antibiotics as soon as they were rescued out of the theater, you know... when they were on the hostage bus.

 

What can I say.. mistakes happen. At least the Chechens didn't get the chance to detonate their bombs; it would've killed everyone in the theater and damaged the near vicinity.

Edited November 1, 2002 by JediIgor

[ElvisMiggell]

Exactly, they did make a mistake, but it wasn't actually anything to do with the Spec Forces that went in, they probably didn't know what gas it was. People higher up were the ones at fault. We'll probably find that hte orders came from Putin himself.

Btw did you know that Putin, well putain, is french for hooker?

 

On a lighter note, i just saw the Matrix Reloaded posters in todays Metro, they all show the characters heads.

[Guest JediIgor]

That might be true, but Putin is pronounced differently in Russian, than in English, slightly different on the 'i'.

 

Oh.. the teaser posters, the ones that I had a few weeks ago, they were without the heads. Just thought you should know. (they might have the new versions with the heads so that the average people could differentiate)

[UntimelyDemise]

Who you callin' average, Willis?

 

Yikes, I just sounded like Gary Coleman in Diff'rent Strokes....

 

[ElvisMiggell]

He's calling me average, and i am.

[Hastings]

Why Vader in the poster? Doesn't Rebellion Reloaded take place after ROTJ? Personally, I do not like the large model of Darth Vader taking up 90% of the poster. The text formatting; however, is very good.

[Guest JediIgor]

Good questions Hastings.. Took me longer to do the text then everything else, because all I did was render a downloaded model of Vader.

 

The reason I used Vader, is because he was the only character I could download at the moment (besides well, stormtroopers, and boba fett, which don't fit in); not to mention this was a Star Wars spoof poster parody of Matrix Reloaded (made it the same day the first Matrix Reloaded posters were out), and originally had nothing to do with the TC (by chance, the name is now Rebellion Reloaded).

[the_mask]

I've got some character models in my pile, like Thrawn, or Boba Fett. The only reason I never made anything with 'em was, that their arms are spread wide and everytime I tried to bend them back to a normal position, something went wrong. But if want to give it a try, I can mail you some.

[Rogue13]

I think the spec forces knew what gas they were using, they were just ordered to not tell anyone what it was. I don't think any spec forces in the world would use a weapon or gas they knew nothing about because its profesonalism on thier part to know everything thier is to know about the kit they are going to be using. If they were told to use a certain type of gas but not told what the gas was, i'm pretty sure they would refuse to use it. I know i would. Lets face it, they don't become the best by using weapons they have no clue about.

[glandry]

This most certainly was a screw up on the part of the politicians, not the spec forces. It's funny how low a value they can put on human life...

[Zag Fel]

I don't understand why you continue to fixate upon the people who ordered the gas attack. Have you ever considered for a moment in your cynicism that maybe - just maybe - that the decision was based on the value of human not a disregard for it? I for one applaud their decisive actions, regardless of the outcome; the policy makers had their backs to the wall, and instead of debating their possible courses of action, they were not deterred from opting to effect a winning (if controversial) solution. Even their refusal to disclose the composition of the gas is somewhat understandable due to the possible political repercussions.

[Rogue13]

I agree with the decision that was made because after all the terrorists where going to execute everyone anyway. At least this way there were some survivors. But i don't agree with endangering the lives of the survivors even further by not disclosing the gas used.

[ElvisMiggell]

Don't get me wrong, i think that the decision makers did a very good job, they made one mistake, which is a pity, but actually they saved the vast majority of the hostages. Now, as for the grunts, im not sure. I've always had the impression that Russia holds on the the unswerving obedience of the Cold War. I don't know if they still do, but it is concieveable to me that the SpecForces on the ground didn't know what gas they were being told that they had to use. All i was trying to point out was that the guys on the ground did an absoilutely superb job. However, i am concerned that although Russia acted decisevly, they didn't reveal information that could have saved more lives. I do not doubt that their course of action was the right one. However, one of my friends was in Moscow at the time, and i was just a little bit concerned for his safety.

[glandry]

I'd like to clarify my comments. When I say politicians don't put a lot of value on human life, I wasn't just talking about the Russians. There were probably more civilian victims in the Afghan war as in the 9/11 attacks. How many Iraqi civilians will die before the US is done there? 600,000 people died in Rwanda and the UN sat around with their collective heads stuck up their collective asses. God knows how many people died in the Balkans while Europe stood by and watched.

 

The military tends to do the best it can, but more often than not politicians send them to war for the wrong reasons. I don't believe in "pre-emptive" strikes. It just doesn't make sense. If the US thinks Iraq will attack, then the US can attack first. But if Iraq thinks the US will attack, then they will attack first! If the US and Soviets had that attitude 20 years ago we wouldn't be here having this discussion.

[ElvisMiggell]

Interesting point.

[Rogue13]

Glandry is right but if the American's attack Iraq on the "pre-emtive" strike excuse then they are on thier own. The United Nations won't back such an action, although i'm pretty sure Brittish troops and equipment will be sent in cause Tony Blair is really kissing George Bush's @ss at the moment. Edited November 8, 2002 by Rogue13