Who was in the cave : Vader vs Luke or Luke vs Luke ?

[Cain]

Me and Chimera seem to have a confusion.........when Luke goes in his training at Daggobah in the tree cave he will confront an alternate future where he will be evil and follow in the path of Vader....this battle is made force reflected by Yoda and at the end Luke sees that the helmet of "Vader" blows only to reveal his face...and he realizes that in fact he confronted him self in battle not Vader ....is this true or not ?

[Chimera]

In the original movie, yes. The helmet splits like a big ol' egg and out pops Lukes head.

 

I'm suggesting in the Mangal dimension he has a different vision because he doesn't take his lightsaber inside the cave.

 

You could even tie it in to Ben's mysterious decision to stop attacking Vader. Perhaps Ben was showing the only way to beat him, is to not resist. Luke realizes this, but takes it a little to the extreme... as he tended to do.

[Cain]

Aha... ..now I see...btw....send you back the scrip,I think that is better than the TC .....look's so epic ..Seeya I'm waithing for the story resended Red2Dtwo..... ....can't stop thinking you know about what

[ElvisMiggell]

Technically nobody was in the cave... only what Luke took in with him.

 

Although Star Wars Infinities: The Empire Strikes Back, has an interesting alternative version.

[Guest Scathane]

Now, as many of you know, I’m not much of a Novel-reader when it comes to Star Wars, nevertheless, based on the movies, I feel I am quite clear on what happened in that cave… Luke went in and had to fight his own demons. Actually, this is quite common in all kinds of folklore: before the hero can achieve a certain status (say, that of Champion of a Kingdom or a religion), he has to confront his own demons. These demons are things like greed, fear, self-consciousness, etc. If you ask me, this is exactly what happened to Luke in that cave: he fought his own tendency to fall to the Dark Side.

 

Alternatively, one could assert that Luke got a vision of Vader being his father as well…

[Chimera]

No one is asserting that he was fighting anything BUT his own demons/tendency to fall to the dark side in the movie.

 

I am only suggesting that if he had not taken his lightsaber in to the cave, he might have had a different experience.

 

Yoda seemed to suggest that.

 

Cain, I think you're right. We should change the TC. It's going to be too confusing for Luke to see something else in the cave.

 

By the way, THANKS FOR THE AVATAR!

[ElvisMiggell]

Yeah, cool avatar.

[Chimera]

thanks! It's an R2D1.

 

See http://www.astromech.net/gallery/astromechs/

 

If you're a droid lover

[ElvisMiggell]

Hmmm, i think Trej is mmore likely to develop an astrromech fetish than i am!

[Guest Scathane]

thanks! It's an R2D1.

 

See http://www.astromech.net/gallery/astromechs/

 

If you're a droid lover

As a fellow Astromech, I can only say: great site!

[Cain]

 

Cain, I think you're right. We should change the TC. It's going to be too confusing for Luke to see something else in the cave.

 

By the way, THANKS FOR THE AVATAR!

 

 

Now I see.....it has confused me btw....but now it seems ok.....check the story that I resend to you wee should post it soon......and as for the avatar ......you are welcome... ....hey you are part of the dimension Mangal now....btw make sure that you don't loose your dimension gate

[Lord_La_forge]

I never really thought about these happenings, but Scaths explanation is my opinion too. Still interesting question that, what could have been happened if Luke leaves his lightsaber outside.

[Trejiuvanat]

Hmmm, i think Trej is mmore likely to develop an astrromech fetish than i am!

 

No, those little metal barrels are doomed to be sacrificed to the Gods after their parts have been painfully removed!!!

 

The cave was a challenge to Luke's private fears, in the end although he failed in the cave, he understood that he could easily fall to the dark side and become like Vader, the cave is in some way like a mirror.

I suppose that if Luke had not taken the lightsaber he would have been confronted by his demons, again in Vader's shape. The outcome would have different, of course. I suppose that Luke would battle the fears with his spirit rather than using a weapon (remeber Luke was the one to ignite the blade first). In the end he would have learnt that he can overcome the dark side, without bloodshed. Perhaps the helmet would have exploded and shown that there was nothing in it.

[Texas_Fett]

I agree with Trej. In addition, I've always considered that it served as a warning to Luke: continue your 'reckless' agression against evil, and you WILL become like Vader. Or, that you cannot defeat Vader by force! (pardon the pun). That's why Luke was so adamant that he couldn't 'kill his own father'. (Yoda reinforces this interpretation by dissuading Luke from going to confront Vader. I'ts not that he isn't able to do it, but that if he does then 'matters are worse'.) From his point of view, if he did he'd end up just like him. What's ironic is that from Obi-Wan's point of view, that was the ONLY way to be rid of Vader; to kill him (kinda makes you wonder if Obi-Wan didn't have his own 'Dark-Side Demons', doesn't it?). He failed to see things from Luke's P.O.V.

 

But Luke ended up adhering to what he said, despite the urgings of Ben: He didn't kill his father. Instead he brought him back to the Light Side. So what Luke said was true...from a certain point of view.

 

And that's my take on the subject. Feel free to flame if, if so desired.

[Trejiuvanat]

From his point of view, if he did he'd end up just like him. What's ironic is that from Obi-Wan's point of view, that was the ONLY way to be rid of Vader; to kill him (kinda makes you wonder if Obi-Wan didn't have his own 'Dark-Side Demons', doesn't it?).

 

That's one more in the list Why I don't like the prequels. During Anakin's "training" I would have expected to see some of Kenobi's demons, the ones that made him fail Anakin. After all from Ben's POV he always said that he had failed him.

I think that deep down Ben knew that Vader couldn't be defeated by force, actually he never says so. IIRC, he only insists that Luke has to confront him again (after all that was the point of saving, and protecting the twins 20 years earlier). In terms of power, I don't think that Luke could have defeated Vader, the only way to kill Vader was through the Redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

In ROTJ when Luke talked to Kenobi's ghost, Luke insisted that he needed to redeem him, that in his core Vader wanted to be redeemed (I pick this from I, Jedi, where Corran interprets that Vader's admission to Luke was in fact a silent bid for help). Obi-Wan insisted that Vader couldn't be redeemed that he was more a machine than a man, that there was nothing in him left to be redeemed. Couldn't Obi-Wan have said this only to make Luke push harder and redeem him in the end? It's all a matter of interpretation, though.

[Texas_Fett]

Great distinction, Trej! I agree wholeheartedly!

[Guest Scathane]

I agree with Trej as well!

[Trejiuvanat]

I agree with Trej as well!

 

Thanks! When was the last time you agreed with me on a discussion regarding the Force?

[Guest Scathane]

Thanks! When was the last time you agreed with me on a discussion regarding the Force?

Who says I'm agreeing with you on the Force?!

[the_mask]

But he also doesn't force you to agree ... oh my I've gone cross-eyed ...

 

I agree with almost everything in Trej's interpretation, except that he seems to have the wish to reshape every member of swr lately.

 

For Luke to take his saber with him and not even leaving it behind at Yoda's hint, that was truely a sign of the agressive intentions he had. Young and hotblooded he thought that because he could manipulate the force would enable him to overpower Vader.

Even during the fight with his father he remained cocky just until his hand is cut off. There he realizes, that his relatively untrained abilities will not save him and that he is not invulnerable. You could say he's growing up then.

[ElvisMiggell]

Yeah, Luke does a lot of that during the films, which is something Anakin doesn't in the first trilogy, or at least, not in the same successful manner for the final outcome.