Ello

I really think we had a huge missunderstanding, b/c I've been trying to say that pretty much the whole time--and doing a very bad job of it. Been a pleasure talking to you.

Look, I apologized for the Shaddup. It was rude, and I wasn't thinking. Second, I posted the site for ZARE, because he asked a question about the Howlrunner. It had nothing to do with anything else. Third: Just because a site contains faulty data doesn't mean that all of it is wrong. Just that you need to treat it more carefully. Take for example the recent discoveries about menopause: that women do actually grow eggs, and its not that they simply "run out". If you had an old medical book that mentioned that theory, does it mean that you can't trust anything else about it? No, it just means that you have to be more careful, and double check. Invalid was a bad word for it, but my point was that your argument: "one thing on it is wrong, ergo everything else is suspect at best" seemed to be foolish to me. I want to make it clear that I do understand your stance of "I don't trust a site that uses any statistic other than 17.6 km," as I don't trust any site that does use 17.6. But I feel that it is pointless to argue about that. It's the sort of thing that we'll never agree on. And finally. The VenSD has a different mission than an ISD. Its weaponry is different for that reason, and that reason alone. It doesn't imply something in between. The Endurance class fleet carrier (New Republic "New Class" ship) has the same spaceframe as a nebula class destroyer, but far less weaponry. It doesn't mean that they are built at different times.

Zare: Do they ever actually get rid of ships? They cease to mention them, but I thought that they were never destroyed. Also, I think the reason they change SSD length is that Lucas gives a wonderful statistic which is so mathematically beautiful, and then realizes oh crap, in the movie I made it look twice as large as I said, so he changes it from 5 times an ISD to 8 times an ISD (8km and 12.8km respectively), to make it more reasonable, but the film reels still show it at 11 times an ISD (17.6km) and that's where we get all our measuerments[/i]

I didn't mean to be offensive when I said SHADDUP. I was irritated for other reasons, and I felt that you were bringing in the 17.6 km at all times, even when not particulary relevant. I'm sorry if I made it seem like I wasn't interested in your ides or like I was trying to shout you out. Okay. Now, to business. DarthFelth, your argument. is invalid b/c 1) it is all based on the premise that the SSD is definitely 17.6 km long, and I don't accept that and 2) you argue that if any site has any invalid data all of the site is therefore unusable. Even if that data was offical Lucasfilm data that film reels don't agree with. I never said I used hangarbay as my source for the ISD. Frankly, I don't remember what site I use, and it was probably more than one. I look for a lot of pics of ships on google, and end up going thru an absurd number of chatrooms. Finally, "sucessor" does not mean anything about direct proceedance. For example, the Mediator battlecruiser is considered the sucessor to the MC80, even thought the MC90 came between. The VenSD has a mission objective much more similar to that of an Acclamator. It pacifies LZs (Source: Microseries chapter 22) and deployes fighters. It thus has a different design philosophy from the VicSDs and ISDs, and so the ISD is the sucessor to the VicSD in terms of design even though the VenSD came between them I don't understand why you said "The VenSD and ISD are nothing alike and infact from what is seen in the films use different weapons. I see nothing in common other than a slight wedge and SD in name." That's my point. Feel free to correct me if I'm misinterpreting this. One last thing. I'd like to define "sucession" as I have been using it. I use it to mean how one design develops out of another. This can be regardless of time difference between them. The Dreadnaught class heavy cruisers used c. 50yrs BBY are the design sucessors to the Invincible Class Dreadnaughts used 3000yrs BBY in the Alsakan conflicts, despite the fact that the two shared no common designers, building companies, affiliations, or time period.

Zare: You're welcome And I agree. I think that actually, some fan sites are more reliable, because we're so damn dedicated. While they have the source of the data, they don't pore over the way we do. Take the TFN encylopedia. Its got stuff I've never heard of. Lucasfilm doesn't stand a chance.

Zare: yep, the Howlrunner is an Incom design. it was designed around the time of the reborn emperor. Incom was an Imp. Company, but when the Emperor tried to nationalize it, the designers fled and joined the rebellion. So the corp sort of split (i think) you can find out more in the old Essential Vehicles, and also in http://hangarbay.tripod.com/td-i7.html Darth Felth: 1) Look, let's just not argue about SSD length. There's valid ideas on both sides, strongly held beliefs, and NO POINT in arguing. So SHADDUP already. Sarcasm won't convert me. 2) Just by looking at the VSD and ISD you can see they are much more related than the other ships. So what? Related doesn't mean direct sucession. The Venator SD and the Victory SD fufill very different missions, and the Vic's is closer to the ISD. On the other hand, the VenSD mission is more closely related to the acclamator, so it looks more like that. And finally, the VicSD was designed by Walex Blissex, while the VenSD and ISD were designed by Lyra Blissex, his daugter. The Vic was built by Rendili (which threatened to seceed in the later war) and the VenSD and ISD were built by KDY. At the time of the clone wars, Rendili is going out and KDY is coming in. So the relation doesn't show direct progression. Furthermore, b/c the designs are so similar, Lyra probably got the idea from VicSD concepts sketches--and nourished it for a while. Read Zare's above post[/i]

Yes, artillery support for LZ's are important, but ISDs aren't the ship to provide it. They have horribly innacurate weapons--well, not innacurate, but so devestating its hard to control them. A Lancer Class Frigate, for example, has lots of laser cannons (as opposed to turbolaser), with a far lesser blast radius. So it can actually take out enemy targets, as opposed to simply smashing the countryside. But hot LZs like that are also less common than you think, b/c there's simply no hope. The enemy knows that the ISD can and will dissocociate them at the molecular level. He gives up on it. So the times when an ISD can help clear an LZ AND the enemy commander doesn't surrender are few and far between

Oh, one more thing. They are the same. Check the official site venator page. (http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/republicattackcruiser/index.html) The top pic bar shows the "Star Destroyer white" color scheme Venators

Sorry--Been off for a while In order Zare (#1) I agree that the acclamator was in the works for a while. Even though (based on a series of random quotes/WAGs) KDY can build an ISD in about three months, and the acclamator much sooner, they undoubtably had a lot of R&D/debugging time. The VicSD was also probably designed say 2-3 yrs pre Geonosis, but would have been pushed in much faster--some of the Seppie ships were huge, and acclamator destroyer variants just weren't up to it. While the ISD was the first to be unable to enter the atmosphere, it was coming for a while. The only reason VenSDs are at Eastport in RotS (no, I'm not sure that it's Eastport, but that's the biggest one, right?) is because of a repair glut. It must be a hell of a time bringing them into the atmosphere . Third, I don't think that bombardments are actually a viable troop landing strategy. Why? Because the enemy would normally know that it's coming, and just has to move into a position that the ground troops have to take intact. Borleias is unusual for several reasons: 1) the Vong had no idea that the ISDs were designed to pound the crap out of the ground, too, and 2) the NR controlled the orbitals but the Vong still had forces on the ground and 3) (related to 2) the Vong were the agressors but they reinforced ground troops w/o taking the space first. These all stem from the fact that the Vong are extragalatic. BDZs aren't rare, they were happening in the Sith Wars. And they ain't pretty. Granite runs like water, sand becomes instant glass, anything hit explodes or is smashed into oblivion. The heat produces enough atmospheric concussive force to crack the strongest bunker. Nothing lives through them, and so as long as the enemy remains in an important location, a bombardment is impratical. And if there are no places like that, than ground combat is pointless anyway Fourth: Of course the final ISD design was approx. 10 PE. But the original plans were on the board, and probably a few trial spaceframes were being built before Coruscant, if only b/c the ISD was a battleship, and the clone wars had a lot of fleet combat, massive smashing Zare #2 I think that a lot of VicSDs were built in the clone wars, and indeed they predated VenSDs, but we don't see a lot of them, b/c we don't see many fleet battles described in great detail, and Coruscant we see the starfighter perspective, and so we get the VenSDs--the carriers. Finally, as to VicSDs being cut out of the official loop--they were never there in the first place. They still exist, and are a stronger predecessor than the VenSDs, but b/c of the movie content, the VenSDs are more officially recognized Darth Felth just how offical is that site anyways? Yes you can clearly see the ISD came from them ships but you can see it came from the VSD which you can see came from the Vendator. I mean it even has the same abilty to land. Actually, the VicSD predates the VenSD, it just lands because that's what nearly all of the ships up to that point do. Also, I disagree about the length, but let's not argue.

The title says it all

Recent discussion has revealed that the ISD is a clone wars era design, leading to much dissapointment among me. (And people like me) So, like any true fan, I'm gonna argue like hell against it . The premises are as follows: 1. the ISD is a late clone wars design, first begun to be laid down around the Battle of Coruscant. This is critical. 2. The Old Republic was unable to fully mobilize its tech base, R&D, and manufacturing base, even through the clone wars. Conclusion: While the ISD was a clone wars era design, it wasn't actually built in any signifigant numbers until about ten/fourteen years later Argument: The ISD is a late era clone wars design, and thus the first spaceframes were being laid down just around the Battle of Coruscant. It was to be the ship that won the war, a highly capable battleship for fleet actions, a local control center, a flagship for smaller vessels, and a carrier in its own right. However, production was just getting started when it hit a wall--the glut in repairs caused by the unprecedented Battle of Coruscant. Even afterwards, the KDY shipyards continued to work mainly on the proven VenSDs and the VicSDs. If the Republic could just push hard enough, it could roll up the Seppies. There was no time to troubleshoot a new (and unprecedented) design. Then came Utupau, and the Jedi Rebellion. (Yes, I know, not a Rebellion--but it was that way for KDY!) Suddenly, the war was over. No more need for battleships, because there were no more fleet actions. No more need for local control center--most of the available ships were being sent out on antipiracy and loalty insurance patrols. No need for flagships, because the patrols were at most in fours. And no need for carriers at all--or at least not massive ones. Again, fleet carriers only belong in fleet engagements. So the orders came down from the top. Make lots and lots of VicSDs. Start retiring the VenSDs (truly fleet carriers). The ISDs can come later. It would also be at this time that the planned class name was changed from "Imperator" (a martial but somewhat democratic name: victorius general, in Latin) to "Imperial," reflecting the Emperor's priorities. With the slow, most ISD spaceframes were broken down, and converted into VicSD spaceframes--a fairly easy change. Then came the technological windfall from Mustafar. The Seppies had always had better R&D, and now it was available to the Republic. This would be plugged back into ISD plans, causing a lot of redesign. True, Palp wanted big ships fast, but he always did. And he did appreciate that the best way to go about it would be first to own the planets and shipyards, then to complete the revving up of the tech and industrial bases, and then build a lot of ships. So, finally, ten years later, when an ISD could function as a VicSD (in terms of manuverability, build time, industrial requirements, self reliance, deployment times, etc) plus 700 meters and an absurd number of turbolasers, they began to roll out of the shipyards again. The few old ones, the ISD 0's, if you will, were refitted heavily, and the normal ISD came about. The rest is history. (caveat to account for the Dark Lord book coming out in novemeber) Of course, an ISD would be an impressive conveyance, and the few "ISD 0" would be dispensed to those such as Lord Vader

HELLO?!?! ANYBODY OUT THERE?!?!

Who does the pinnace belong to? What is the watchkeeper destroyer from? What is the "mankvim"?

Whose pinnace is that? What is the watchkeeper destroyer from? What is the Mankvim thing?