Impressions

[karamazovmm]

BAC will be 32 supply. MonCal AFC will actually be getting it's costs increased, not decreased (it currently sits at 43 supply).

 

I had kind of agreed that the AFC as it stands is a good proposition, but given the fleet experiments I still think it costs too much

 

while a difference to the rejuvenator is almost 20 supply, I still think that a more clear separation between real caps and frigate caps should be interesting, so that I can actually pay for those precious time and money on the research for those mid late frigate caps. Basically my idea is to field more of those frigate caps so that the real caps that command have more meaning, I think a good approach would be to raise the cost on command caps and lower a bit on frigate caps

 

 

To be truthful, part of the reason I want to remove Full Squadrons from the BAC is so that the NR won't have a ship with Full Squadrons, as a balancing move so that the NR doesn't have an easy way to speed up ship production. With the exception of the Empire, no single faction can easily get a Full Squadrons ship in the very early game.

 

Thats the thing, while the need to divert ships to counter fighters is true, I don't see that as a real problem. My cpu agrees with you on the other hand

 

Yeah, fighters have been notoriously hard to balance. Bombers are fine; they're faster then frigates, have excellent alpha strike ability, and have good modifiers against everything but frigates and other such light targets. Your point about fighter regeneration rates is a good one; I think I'll lower that rate for fighters a good deal.

 

yeah they can hit hard, but due to the amount needed and how much is lost in the first few seconds of the engagements make them a hard proposition, Im actually thinking in stop fielding carriers and divert frigates to that role, they are cheaper to make and faster to replenish

 

The ability requires research. Could it be you didn't get Heavy Munitions yet?

 

the button simply doesn't exist once the ability is selected, it doesn't matter if I have heavy munitions researched or not

 

That's a bad comparison. Of course the Nebula will lose 1v1, it's firepower is spread over three targets rather than two like the AFC. Put it in a multi-ship engagement and the Nebula will have slightly more firepower than the AFC. However you are missing one key point in all of this, the AFC requires research while the Nebula does not. This means that the Nebula is avaliable for early and mid game, while the AFC only becomes avaliable during the mid or late game. That alone makes the Nebula worthwhile and more than simple cannon fodder. Additionally, the AFC cannot bomb planets, while the Nebula and BAC can.

 

not necessarily, basically the real point of the nebula is to fill the gaps till I can research the AFC, thats the thing, I don't need it early game, I want to get my real caps to the max level as soon as possible so it makes sense to field real frigates early in the game instead of fielding the nebula that will consume my dear xp points that will boost my real caps efficiency

 

and I don't consider an essential ability to bomb planets, Im going to do that after the fleet is destroyed, true the planets HP are large, but I still have at least 8 caps that can do that in the fleet

[Lavo]

I had kind of agreed that the AFC as it stands is a good proposition, but given the fleet experiments I still think it costs too much

Currently it costs the same as a Nebula SD. I don't see how that's too much, if anything I think it's too inexpensive.

 

while a difference to the rejuvenator is almost 20 supply, I still think that a more clear separation between real caps and frigate caps should be interesting, so that I can actually pay for those precious time and money on the research for those mid late frigate caps. Basically my idea is to field more of those frigate caps so that the real caps that command have more meaning, I think a good approach would be to raise the cost on command caps and lower a bit on frigate caps

I disagree on lowering the cost of non-command capital ships entirely; they are already more cost efficient then regular frigates, making them even cheaper would push regular frigates to oblivion. I am unsure what you mean by "a more clear separation between real caps and frigate caps", please elaborate.

 

yeah they can hit hard, but due to the amount needed and how much is lost in the first few seconds of the engagements make them a hard proposition, Im actually thinking in stop fielding carriers and divert frigates to that role, they are cheaper to make and faster to replenish

Interesting thoughts. It boils down to tactics and personal preference I guess.

 

not necessarily, basically the real point of the nebula is to fill the gaps till I can research the AFC, thats the thing, I don't need it early game, I want to get my real caps to the max level as soon as possible so it makes sense to field real frigates early in the game instead of fielding the nebula that will consume my dear xp points that will boost my real caps efficiency

The Nebula is far better at dealing with smaller ships, such as the Nebulon-B, due to it's ability to hit more targets at once. It also has an ion ability which the Mon Cal AFC lacks, though that's something the BAC will have soon. I do see your point about the Nebulas not being useful early game, though again I must say that comes down to personal preference; I've seen human players being able to totally overrun an Empire player using only a few Rejuvinators, a handful of Endurances, and a ton of Nebulas. Heck, that fleet nearly took out a different player's lvl 1 Executor, got it down to under 8000 health.

[karamazovmm]

 

The Nebula is far better at dealing with smaller ships, such as the Nebulon-B, due to it's ability to hit more targets at once. It also has an ion ability which the Mon Cal AFC lacks, though that's something the BAC will have soon. I do see your point about the Nebulas not being useful early game, though again I must say that comes down to personal preference; I've seen human players being able to totally overrun an Empire player using only a few Rejuvinators, a handful of Endurances, and a ton of Nebulas. Heck, that fleet nearly took out a different player's lvl 1 Executor, got it down to under 8000 health.

Currently it costs the same as a Nebula SD. I don't see how that's too much, if anything I think it's too inexpensive.

 

And thats my point the nebula is a no go, good it can deal damage to 3 targets at the same time, its not really that good of thing, since it will disperse the fps over the ships

 

plus it costs more than the AFC, aside that we also have that the AFC has the shield ability, which makes it more suitable for longer combats, being able to stay alive longer = more damage done over time

 

aside that if you are not using it at the start, there is no point in using the nebula at all, given that the AFC is indeed a better and cheaper ship.

 

My point is to make the nebula being able to enter a fleet

 

 

I disagree on lowering the cost of non-command capital ships entirely; they are already more cost efficient then regular frigates, making them even cheaper would push regular frigates to oblivion. I am unsure what you mean by "a more clear separation between real caps and frigate caps", please elaborate.

My idea is to relegate the frigates to support action:

 

Colonization, exploration, heavy constructors, mine sweeping

 

Cruisers are cannon fodder, so cheap ships that can do specialised actions:

 

long range, fleet carriers, fighter interception, fleet disrupment

 

Caps are going to be divided as they are now:

 

real caps - commanding units, 2 per faction as they are now

 

Cruiser caps - long range, fleet carriers, damage dealers, damage soakers

 

In turn of the levelling up abilities that command caps have and how they affect things fleet wide, you have made them cost more, my idea is to have them cost even more

 

Frigates around 1-3 supply cost

 

Cruisers around 4-8 supply cost

 

Cruiser caps - 12-40 supply cost

 

Real Caps - 40-80 supply cost

 

For example the Republic can have:

 

Frigates around 1-3 supply cost

 

Cruisers around 4-8 supply cost

 

Cruiser caps - 12-20 supply cost

 

Real Caps - 40 supply cost

 

While NR can have

 

Frigates around 1-3 supply cost

 

Cruisers around 4-8 supply cost

 

Cruiser caps - 12-40 supply cost

 

Real Caps - 70-80 supply cost

 

Thus the idea to make you preserve even more the command caps as tactical and desired ships keeps going, and with that I can have more cruiser caps that can perform their duties with cost efficiency. Not to mention I can actually can make a decent fleet with just Command caps and frigates as its right now, I really don't need to use frigate caps at all, the NR with the cost increase for the Command caps might be a bit different, since the proficient lacks firepower, but it can make my caps live a lot longer, specially when massed, and when massed, everything deals some damage

 

 

 

Interesting thoughts. It boils down to tactics and personal preference I guess.

 

Depends, but its something that I will try, I have to see how your lowering of the replenish rate will affect fighters. Currently Im in the camp of I don't deploy frigate fighter killer, since I do deploy some carriers, though I don't see how 2 more squadrons would really make a difference, probably I will mix, damage soaking, damage dealing and anti fighter frigates at the same cost and get something better in return

[Lavo]

My point is to make the nebula being able to enter a fleet

If anything you are pointing out an issue with the BAC/Mon Cal AFC rather than with the Nebula. If the former two are really that good, then perhaps they are simply too powerful, as they stand without any equal in other factions.

 

My idea is to relegate the frigates to support action:

Frigates already do fill that niche. Other than those with specialized roles, frigates for the most part are simply expendable damage sinks and/or non-XP eating fire support.

 

real caps - commanding units, 2 per faction as they are now

Actually, they are not limited to 2 per faction. The CIS and Alliance have three, the Vong has one, plus the Republic used to have three.

 

my idea is to have them [command capitals] cost even more

However, seeing as how their only difference with regular capitals is their abilities, this would make them flat out useless until leveled, due to the fact that they die just as quickly as regular capitals. I don't really see this working well considering that. In addition, the AI would not understand this, and such a change would absolutely cripple them.

 

Thus the idea to make you preserve even more the command caps as tactical and desired ships keeps going

This is already done. In fact, in MP games with humans, command ships are always the first to go down due to their recognized tactical benefit. Making them cost more will not have any change in how players retreat theses vessels when necessary/feasible for the explicit purpose of keeping them alive due to their aforementioned tactical benefit.

 

Depends, but its something that I will try, I have to see how your lowering of the replenish rate will affect fighters. Currently Im in the camp of I don't deploy frigate fighter killer, since I do deploy some carriers, though I don't see how 2 more squadrons would really make a difference, probably I will mix, damage soaking, damage dealing and anti fighter frigates at the same cost and get something better in return

Perhaps this is worth noting; fighters which are armed with torpedoes do very good damage against frigates and other ships with light/medium armor. Though yeah as I believe mentioned prior making fighters actually useful has not been easy.

[karamazovmm]

If anything you are pointing out an issue with the BAC/Mon Cal AFC rather than with the Nebula. If the former two are really that good, then perhaps they are simply too powerful, as they stand without any equal in other factions.

 

they don't have equals that much is true, there is no problem with that

 

I really don't know, I can't apparently convince you to change some things with the nebula, which all in all is a meaningless ship, much like the ISD2 with the empire. It doesn't stand out, it doesn't have anything that makes it appealing, it costs too much and given that we have options, I wouldn't choose it. well I don't.

 

I perfectly understand some of the reasoning for the cost, I can get it without research

 

 

arrangement idea shot down, with rolling balls of fire

 

I didn't know that the AI would be crippled with the cost arrangement, specially given that it would be somewhat similar to the vanilla SOASE, i.e. caps being caps and the rest being the rest, though its logical to think that it would choose more cost effective ships, and cheaper ones as well

 

I think my main problem with the way caps are arranged now is the supply cost, its worth more getting tons of lightweight caps than getting those more expensive ones, dmg output will be greater, dmg soaking as well, or hell go for all out frigates instead of caps and use the command caps. it just doesn't feel right to me. I know that cruisers and frigates are the way they are because the AI can't handle bombing planets. Although I don't know the need to have so many bombing capable units

 

thats a problem that exists in SOASE as well

 

 

Perhaps this is worth noting; fighters which are armed with torpedoes do very good damage against frigates and other ships with light/medium armor. Though yeah as I believe mentioned prior making fighters actually useful has not been easy.

 

You did mentioned, and sincerely balance is something that is always very hard to achieve

 

Anyway, sorry for the delay, but Rome 2 came out and Im a very large fan of the TW series. Unfortunately due to tech issues I haven't been able to play and that removed a crap ton of my enthusiasm to play any game. Thus Im reading, consequently the play test has been delayed for now, I shall resume it in the future

 

btw I found interesting the new changes

 

btw I recommend reading Sword Art Online, its fairly interesting, you can find the translations on baka-tsuki for now, since its been licensed by Yen Press and it will be removed in the future, which is good and bad news, since it will take a very long time to release the 12th and 13th novels

[Lavo]

I really don't know, I can't apparently convince you to change some things with the nebula, which all in all is a meaningless ship, much like the ISD2 with the empire. It doesn't stand out, it doesn't have anything that makes it appealing, it costs too much and given that we have options, I wouldn't choose it. well I don't.

ISD2 is a great all around ship. It's cost was up because it's proven itself in semi-competitive MP play. I believe we must agree to disagree.

 

I didn't know that the AI would be crippled with the cost arrangement, specially given that it would be somewhat similar to the vanilla SOASE, i.e. caps being caps and the rest being the rest, though its logical to think that it would choose more cost effective ships, and cheaper ones as well

The AI has been tuned in order to spam capital ships. The issue is that the AI doesn't really understand what command capitals are, even though they have different statcounttypes.

 

I think my main problem with the way caps are arranged now is the supply cost, its worth more getting tons of lightweight caps than getting those more expensive ones, dmg output will be greater, dmg soaking as well, or hell go for all out frigates instead of caps and use the command caps. it just doesn't feel right to me. I know that cruisers and frigates are the way they are because the AI can't handle bombing planets. Although I don't know the need to have so many bombing capable units

All capitals which are 16/17 supply and above have a damage bonus against light combat frigates (Nebulon-B, Carrack, etc) to make spamming them less effective. In the past, those light frigates actually did overwhelm capitals, though now not so much. There isn't a need for so many bombing capable units, however it is SW canon, and as such it is in.

[karamazovmm]

ahhhh damn! we can't agree on everything? thats a shame and I thought that we were going to be a happy couple

 

anyway, Im busy playing rome 2 will see the time on the weekend, but currently my programming job has been taking much of my time, good thing is that Im earning cash