Ender's Game

[Master_Xan]

Anybody else excited for the movie?

 

[Evaders99]

HECK YEA

[Master_Xan]

HECK YEA

Yeah! That's what I'm talking about!

 

Oh, and the link in your siggy, to Evaders squad coding, is broken. Or rather, the site is missing. Just sayin'.

[addict-ant]

That looked well cool!

 

Hadn't anything about this film until now - cheers, nice post

 

Looking forward to that - right up my street

[Master_Xan]

You haven't heard of the book? It's great. My avatar comes from the front cover of the companion novel, Ender's Shadow.

[addict-ant]

Nope not heard of it. And unfortunately for me once I've seen the film I can't read the book.

 

It's not that I don't like reading - I stand by the axiom: "There's nothing better than a good book"

 

but all the mystery's gone out of it for me. Besides which I spend WAY too much on time on the computer; so don't get much reading done nowadays

 

But yeah! Can't wait to see the film.

[Evaders99]

Read the book anyway. There's only so much the film can convey, esp on a character's own internal thoughts. Orson Scott Card writes some interesting characters, I'd say it's really hard to show on screen sometimes.

[Master_Xan]

Or read the book first! You have a few months to finish it before the movie even comes out.

[addict-ant]

Sharp thinking Master Xan!

 

I fear it has zero chance of happening at the moment though...

 

...as I've very recently been introduced to GameRanger and have several games of Supremacy -ahem- I mean Rebellion, on the way (any idea why they changed the name for over here? - I read on some French website that someone thought it had something to do with the politics revolving around the former British Empire and the American War of Independence! - I find that a little difficult to believe! That was a all a very. very long time ago and IMO has little, if any, bearing on the issue)

 

Anyways I digress, back to Rebellion:

 

- I seriously have the bug for the game...once again! Probably won't be able to get enough of it for at least a month or two!

 

Huge thanks to SWR for cluing me into it. (BTW our newest member, Orca43 is one of those I'm playing against - and I think our game worthy of noting in the Gaming Stories Section - post to follow)

 

@Evaders - couldn't agree with you more: it's a well known phenomenon when transferring from book to screen, that a considerable amount is lost in translation; whether it be budget/time restraints (a 3 hour film's got to be really good for most to sit through it) or simply the constraints of the media - as you say, it can be difficult to communicate a character's internal monologue and thought process on screen. This usually leaves those who have read the book to feel cheated or disappointed in some way, shape or form.

 

I would like to note a series of films where I actually think the screen version improved upon the book: Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit.

I'm primarily talking about the Hobbit as this is the only book I've read of the series (well half of it - sorry IMO it was boring and I gave up half way through). I thought the film version was a substantial improvement on the book (apologies to any Tolkien fans out there) and I have friends who read Lord of the Rings and said the same about the films; whilst there are lots that were missed out from the books, they felt Tolkien had left bits in the book that never got explored and seemed superfluous to both the plot and the characters. As such they considered Jackson's film version better overall, which I think is fairly unique.

- I'd be interested to hear anyone's views on the subject...

 

However, I have to come back to the point that I can't read a book if I know the story - it's the mystery and the desire to learn what happens next that keeps me turning pages - once that mystery's gone, I find it a real trudge (I take it I'm alone in that feeling?).

 

It probably has more to do with my reading age than anything else: despite my protestations towards being an intellectual, my preferred reading material tells a different story - my bookshelf still has the Fighting Fantasy, Dragonlance and Star Wars books I grew up with (I still re-read the Thrawn books once in a blue moon) and hasn't been overly fleshed out by more mature reading, such as Raymond E Feist's fantasy series, Stan Nicholes' Orcs or Wendy Alec's very unique (and highly recommended) fiction on the war between the Christian forces of Heaven and the unholy legions of Satan (no I'm not religious in case you're wondering, it's just a damn good read).

 

What all these books have in common is that they're all fast paced and primarily plot driven stories. Not that I'm adverse to character development - Dragonlance's Raistlin Majere will always be my childhood hero...with Grand Admiral Thrawn a close second

But generally the books I enjoy are able to do both without heavy narrative description (such as the like of Tolkien - sorry again to any fans out there) that I personally find a complete turn off.

 

Hence I wonder if it's reasonable to say: my reading preferences are somewhat juvenile to say the least?

[Master_Xan]

I agree, the movies did good things for Lord of the Rings. I'm still undecided on the Hobbit; we will see as the other movies come out (though it may not be a fair comparison, as the movies include material from the Silmarillion).

 

Plot driven novels are not juvenile, they are standard fiction. Heavy characterization and/or stressing themes over plot is called literary fiction. I typically find literary fiction to be worthless. It is often an author's means of getting his opinion to the masses, rather than a viable story. I would rather read an opinion article than a short story or entire novel that tries to hint or suggest his opinion. I'm too blunt of a person to waste that kind of time. Some say it is more powerful, because the reader connects to the characters and "gets it" more than from an opinion article; that could be true of some such stories, but too often the author just manipulates the reader's feelings to underscore an opinion.

 

As I said, literary fiction can also focus on the characters, usually using fairly average-seeming people and expounding on them in some fashion. This can be fun in a short story, but to me, it isn't novel material. You spend a few hundred pages learning a character's personality and almost nothing more. That is just not interesting to me, though I know many people who are interested in it, so I try and keep my grumbling to a minimum. To each his own.

 

The arguments between standard and literary fiction is what drives the arguments between sci-fi/fantasy and contemporary genres. Proponents of contemporary fiction, what I am calling literary fiction, think sci-fi and fantasy novels are brainless "go save the world from the bad guy" stories, lacking any insight into the human condition. Often, they are right. Doesn't mean sci-fi and fantasy novels are not fun to read. Sci-fi/fantasy folks content that contemporary (literary) works have little or no plot, and are just an author vomiting his opinions on the page with fancy language, lacking any semblance of story at all. Often, they are right, but that doesn't mean those who enjoy studying human nature or understanding people from other cultures/time periods don't enjoy it. They do. Why the two camps can't just agree to disagree, I don't know. Whenever someone bashes a novel with these sorts of arguments, I usually ignore that person's opinions, as they are usually just biased.

 

Now when you mix literary fiction with standard fiction, you can get something magical. A plot driven story that actually makes sense and is interesting, mixed with unique characters that are well fleshed out. The "theme" and author opinions are often still included, but when there is a plot to back it up, I can get into the plot and ignore the author's ideas if I want to. These books are, to me, some of the best books ever written. They are hard to find, as few authors can successfully characterize AND come up with a really good plot to engage those characters.

 

Ender's Game is one of those rare gems. Ender's Shadow is, too. The sequels to Ender's Game are much more literary, while the sequels to Ender's Shadow are much more standard. But Ender's Game and Shadow are two fantastic novels. I have read hundreds of novels in a dozen genres, and Bean (the main character in Ender's Shadow) is easily in my top five favorite characters. To me, he is cooler than Yoda, more real than Captain Ahab, more flawed than Honor Harrington, more dangerous than Thrawn.

 

If you can make the time, you really should read Ender's Game. Even if you can't, I think Ender's Shadow will have enough unique content to be worth your while, even after seeing the movie. Sorry for the long post.

[addict-ant]

Not at all - it was a pleasure to read...a true pleasure

 

You seem to have encapsulated exactly how I feel about a good book :

 

"A plot driven story that actually makes sense and is interesting, mixed with unique characters that are well fleshed out....

...They are hard to find, as few authors can successfully characterize AND come up with a really good plot to engage those characters."

 

- and I have a Devil of a time finding authors I like, let alone love!

I too, am usually disgruntled with pure literary fiction. That coupled with a little personal experience has made me some what wary of accepting book recommendations but you really seem to know where I'm coming from.

 

So much so, I'm going to put Ender's Shadow (and maybe Ender's Game, film dependent) on my book list!

 

- now I'll be honest: there's two and bit books in front of that...and at the speed I've been reading of late, it could take years (though that naturally fluctuates wildly);

but I resolve here and now that I will give it a go.

And my thanks for such an insightful recommendation - you've really piqued my interest

 

 

I hadn't realised the Hobbit film had used material from Silmarillion - it has been an extremely long time since I got through half the book; perhaps I wasn't being fair in my assessment. For me it was the dwarves in Bilbo's house at the start: I remember this being quite tiresome (maybe too young to appreciate?) in the book but the film really brought home to me the humour of the piece (I really enjoyed both the hobbit and the LOTR films - they are to fantasy what Star Wars was to sci-fi, imo).

 

I don't suppose your a fan of Game of Thrones or Battlestar Galactica?

 

P.S. I had to look up the Honor Harrington reference - hadn't heard of that one, interesting though

[Master_Xan]

Harrington is one of my favorites, though the latter books in the series have really slowed down- focusing too much on political stuff. Honor herself is a very loveable character, if perhaps too perfect, and the plot is good.

 

If you haven't been told/looked it up, Ender's Game is the story from Ender's perspective, while Ender's Shadow is (mostly) the same events from Bean's perspective. I liked Ender's Game, but Shadow was even better. Possibly because I never liked Ender's siblings; they are too smart.

 

In the Hobbit movie, you may remember the meeting with Gandolf and others, discussing the growing darkness? If memory serves, they mention a lich, and have the sword. I've been told that is part of the Silmarillion. Having never read it, I can just relate what I've been told, though it makes sense: the Hobbit is not long enough to make three movies out of. Unless you went with Tolkien's speed. You are not alone in getting bored with the books- I had to skim whole chapters when I read Lord of the Rings. Dwarves singing, and singing, and singing? Page after page describing Rivendale? No thank you. In movie format, all that material is fabulous. We can have interesting things going on on the screen while listening to the dwarves, and a few moments of imagery does more to show Rivendale than a chapter describing it.

 

I haven't read or watched either Game of Thrones or Battlestar Galactica. Galactica I have almost picked up a few times now, but something always gets in the way. Game of Thrones has only been tempting me for a year or so- too short a time to reach the top of my own list. I keep meaning to finish Stargate, or watch the Clone Wars show, or finish Star Trek Voyager, or read the 30-odd books I own but haven't read, or finish my own novel... And that's leaving out video games.

 

Why do you mention those two?

[Evaders99]

Game of Thrones is quite a read. It is a long, dark political fantasy - no characters are spared. I love the books, but realize that RR Martin writes really long books and that it will be a while before he finishes the last two. It took him 5 years to get out the last book.

The TV series does great with the source material. There really isn't a whole lot I'd complain about, they got the casting done well and it fits the mood of the books. I think they actually can't be as graphic as the novels obviously, but for a tv show it's pretty much there.

 

Battlestar Galactica - the new series rocks. It's a dark character drama in space, not really a "scifi" show. I think the actual miniseries intro is a little too long and plodding, but it sets up the rest of the TV seasons for where they are headed. Lots of great twists and turns, though the ending was disappointing.

 

I really recommend both. I pretty much absorb action TV shows, anime, scifi books these days. Just finished the final season of Fringe and working on Alias season 4.

[Master_Xan]

Is Alias any good? I thought about watching it, back in the day, but it seemed so... commercial. Just cast a pretty girl as the lead, put her in leather, and bam. Instant TV show. Is the show better than that, then?

 

Also, do you have any anime recommendations? I find myself being very picky with anime. It is hard to find stuff I like.

[Evaders99]

Alias is decent, there's a good bit of commercial because that's the way its targetted early on. But once it gets into the actual season arcs and character drama, it comes together really well. It's JJ Abrams again, so I really enjoy it. It's a kinda of prototype to Fringe and some of his later works.

 

Anime: top recommendations for guys Ghost in the Shell, Death Note, Code Geass. Massive amounts of mindf*** all around and a lot of depth for an anime. They will make you think.

For more mainstream: Full Metal Alchemist (Brotherhood > original), Tsubasa Chronicles, Shakugan no Shana, Blood+, Darker Than Black

For more off the beaten trail: From the New World, Shiki, xxxHolic, Steins;Gate, Gosick

I can recommend more depending on what you end up liking.

[Master_Xan]

Anime: top recommendations for guys Ghost in the Shell, Death Note, Code Geass.

For more mainstream: Full Metal Alchemist (Brotherhood > original), Tsubasa Chronicles, Shakugan no Shana, Blood+, Darker Than Black

For more off the beaten trail: From the New World, Shiki, xxxHolic, Steins;Gate, Gosick

I can recommend more depending on what you end up liking.

I have already watched (and liked) Ghost in the Shell, Full Metal Alchemist (both versions), and Darker Than Black. Never got into Death Note. I saw most of the first season of Code Geass, but it wasn't my favorite. I want to say I saw an episode of Blood+ and didn't like it, but I can't recall any details.

 

I suppose before I asked for recommendations I should have mentioned stuff I like/don't like. The standard anime stuff isn't really my thing (fanservice, crazy women beating up men for little or no reason, obsessions with cats, etc). I like Trigun, which does have some 'classic anime' stuff (like cats), but I never felt like it was overdone and/or it actually fit into the story and characters.

 

I like plot. Bleach and Dragon Ball Z fail the plot test, since whatever plot might be there is buried under endless, and endlessly boring, fight scenes. Little kid anime particularly bothers me- I don't want to watch twelve year olds trying to act like adults, nor adults falling in love with someone who looks to be twelve years old. I also struggle to enjoy stories about kids who suddenly become the savior of mankind because some robot falls on their heads.

 

The more mature anime is usually what I want, though I'm not really into the fanservice and almost-hentai junk that tends to creep into anime designed for older audiences. Gratuitous blood is not really my thing either, but stuff like Kenshin (Samurai X) doesn't bother me. Probably because it has blood, but the gore isn't a major focus.

 

With that in mind, which of these should I try: New World, Shiki, Steins Gate, Gosick, Tsubasa Chronicles, or Shakugan no Shana? Or something else?

[Evaders99]

I agree, crazy fanservice and plot-less things tend to irk me.

 

For more mature anime:

From the New World: post-modern Japan, what does society do when kids grow up with psychic powers

Shiki: suspense leading up the horror vampires, what do villagers do in desperation

Steins;Gate: what happens when a mad scientist makes a time machine

 

Those are the ones I think you may like. Also

Black Lagoon: mercenaries in southeast Asia, crime syndicates, and triads

[Master_Xan]

I agree, crazy fanservice and plot-less things tend to irk me.

 

For more mature anime:

From the New World: post-modern Japan, what does society do when kids grow up with psychic powers

Shiki: suspense leading up the horror vampires, what do villagers do in desperation

Steins;Gate: what happens when a mad scientist makes a time machine

 

Those are the ones I think you may like. Also

Black Lagoon: mercenaries in southeast Asia, crime syndicates, and triads

When I get a chance, I'll try those three. I've seen Black Lagoon; not my favorite, but it wasn't bad, either.

[addict-ant]

My apologies if I'm barging back into the conversation after a weekend's lull. Well I say lull - I was pulling two all-nighter's playing Rebellion!

 

@ Master Xan - I only mentioned Game of Thrones and Battlestar because they've been two of my most favourite TV shows...ever! Them and HBO's Rome - I Love them and have watched them so many times that if I keep going for another 5 years or more, I'll have watched them more times than Star Wars (and believe me that's saying something). Anyways I thought they'd be a talking point but you've moved on to anime and to be honest that's not really my cup of tea (possibly because I haven't seen one I really like?) - I didn't particularly enjoy Akira or several others a friend of mine who does like anime suggested to me, so I kind of left the genre alone after that.

 

Ref. the Hobbit scene you mentioned - I know exactly the one you mean: it had involved the brown wizard getting the sword, who's name is on the tip of my tongue but can't actually think of (not that I expect I could spell it anyway - Brandeghast or something like that).

Completely agree with you, both about the films turning, what was personally a boring read, into fantastic big screen back drops and especially regarding how on earth Jackson's making three films from one book - must be using other material to make that happen.

 

Never been an avid Stargate fan but have seen quite a few episodes and enjoyed them. If you haven't seen any Clone Wars, I recommend that - whilst some episodes are very kiddy-ish (it is a kid's cartoon after all), some have been quite the opposite - having a long term theme revolving around the ethics of using clone soldiers was more mature than I expected.

You must have at least a passing interest in Star Trek if you're trying to get through Voyager - do you have a favourite series? - I really enjoyed DS9.

 

 

@Evaders - Glad you enjoyed the new series of Battlestar - so did I...sooo much - there was barely an episode there that felt like a "filler" in any way; seemed very much the woven story with awesome characters (Colonel Tie - my favourite). Know what you mean about the end...but I forgive it - for two reasons:

1. The final episode had all the action I'd hoped for - I thought the fight was brilliant!

2. It told the story without any stretching out or closing short of the series as a whole, which so often happens with TV shows

Not to mention the sheer class of it all.

 

I'm an avid watcher of Game of Thrones - best thing on TV since Battlestar imo! Has me absolutely gripped - loving the Imp's character. Haven't read the books unfortunately (by the time I heard of them the TV series was upon me). Glad it's holding true to them though.

 

I've heard good things about Fringe and expect to watch it before too long. I think I've seen all of Alias (more because of my missus than me ) and though I did feel it was a bit commercial (for want of a better word) I did quite enjoy it on the sly - it is JJ Abrahms afterall, even if it is an early outing he shows how to twist and turn a plot.

 

 

Apologies again if I'm barging in and soz for the long post.

[Master_Xan]

In its own way, anime is almost as diverse as American television. But if you don't like "classic anime" (as I don't), the facet of anime you do like may be hard to find. There is probably a mainstream show or two you would like, but for me at least, I find that many of the really big ones just aren't for me. Like Bleach; that is a snooze fest for me, but tons of folks love it. You can always try an episode from a wide variety until you find one you like.

 

I liked TNG and DS9. I like Voyager too, possibly due to its uniqueness. I just haven't seen all the episodes for TNG or Voyager yet. In general, I can't just watch Star Trek whenever. There are so many inconsistencies and plot holes, I have to allow myself to be led around instead of thinking. When I do that, I like it, but otherwise I get pretty disgruntled about things. So its taking me longer to watch them all.

[addict-ant]

I get where you're coming from about Star Trek - for me personally there are a fair few episodes from each series that I would rate poorly. It's probably the reason I enjoyed DS9 the most, had the fewest 'poorer' episodes and a long term plot. Also a primary reason I enjoyed Battlestar so much: excellent story weaving throughout.

 

If you find an anime you, like let me know - I'd like to give it a go - I'll be sure to do the same

[Darth_Rob]

You haven't heard of the book? It's great. My avatar comes from the front cover of the companion novel, Ender's Shadow.

 

I actually just started reading some of the books, with the movie coming out and all. I always wondered where you're avatar came from, and now I know!

 

As for the movie, I am looking forward to it. The books were great reads, though figuring out which order to read them in was a bit harrowing. The missus' generally isn't too big into sci-fi, but she's the one who actually read some of the Ender's Game books and got me to read them. I think I've read four of them now, but took a break from the series to return to King's Dark Tower series.

[Master_Xan]

Ah yes, the reading order. Wasn't an issue for me, since most of the books weren't out yet when I first started reading the series.

 

If your missus isn't into sci fi and still liked the books, then maybe there is hope for my missus...

[Darth_Rob]

Ah yes, the reading order. Wasn't an issue for me, since most of the books weren't out yet when I first started reading the series.

 

If your missus isn't into sci fi and still liked the books, then maybe there is hope for my missus...

 

The initial thing that got her into sci fi and fantasy was Tolkien. When The Hobbit movie came out last year, she had nothing to read and I encouraged her to read The Hobbit since it's an easy read. She enjoyed it, and tackled The Lord of the Rings, and ended up loving it. Now she's starting to find things on her own that I haven't even heard of!

[Evaders99]

If fantasy is your thing: Terry Brooks's Shannara series is amazing