Ship Weapons and Armaments

[Lavo]

As I confirmed here, ships in Rebellion can have a maximum of 5 weapons. This is a very good thing, and will allow for several things, such as the proper implementation of point-defense systems on some ships. For others it means more weapons. But for nearly all of them, it brings up the question of what should be done for weapons in general?

 

With five weapon slots, not only could one put in say, point defense lasers and ion cannons, but still have three slots left for different missile and turbolaser combinations. While this is clear cut for some ships (ex. Executor will get ion cannons and point-defense lasers), the question remains on what to do for some other ships, such as the ISD-II.

 

This thread is for people, including myself, to brainstorm and discuss possible weapon configurations for ships of all kinds, for when we make the port over to Rebellion.

[soul0reaper]

If based purely off canon: The ISDII

Octuple barbette turbolaser or Ion cannons (

Heavy turbolaser batteries (5)

Turbolaser batteries (5)

Additional turbolaser batteries (26+)

Heavy ion cannons (20)

Phylon Q7 tractor beam projectors (10)

Since I doubt you can make tractor beams a weapon, you have 5 weapons there. Lots of turbolasers though xD

[Warb_Null]

I think ion cannons on the bigger ships is a good idea but i'm not so sure about point defence and missiles. If most ships get point defence lasers, why would i want to build lancers for example. Same for the missiles and broadside cruisers. It would make most ship the same except for cost and render the few specialized ships pointless. So for gameplay reasons i would keep a bit of weapon specialization.

[Lavo]

Yeah, for the ISDs I was planning to make their side cannons actual weapon slots in and of themselves.

 

As for point defense, many ships, such as the Dreadnaught, ISD-I cruiser, and Venator, already have point-defense lasers (their weakest laser weapon). Others, such as the Executor/Viscount/World Ship, currently can fire their second turbolaser weapon at fighters. Making a PD laser slot would replace that absurdity. Even if a ship has point defense weaponry, it will not stop more than 1-2 squadrons. With hull research on the enemy's part this decreases further. Seeing as how anti-starfighter frigates, once the SVN comes back up, will cost very little supply (less than 1 supply per ship), a few of them can provide very good coverage for the maintenance cost of a single mid-tier cruiser.

 

However, I do agree on the point that weapon specialization should be kept, though the question is, how much. One thing also to remember is, specialized ships, such as the Lancer and Broadside Cruiser, have unique abilities that other ships would not have, such as a powerful Flak Burst (or as I like to call it, the fly-swatter) and Siege Torpedoes. For example, even if other ships have some missile armament, they cannot give you the missile abilities dedicated missile ships can.

[soul0reaper]

Does sins allow for the destruction of missiles and other physical projectiles? point defense is used for more than starfighters.

 

In my experiences during actual gameplay I don't use lancers much. why? because during an actual fleet engagment the enemy bombers crush them regardless. I built 50 of them, but they get raped really hard by bombers. Making lancers use less population enough is a great idea to encourage more as dedicated fighters right now are pretty much the only hard counter to mass bomber swarms that the alliance love. Dedicated anti starfighters ships such as the lancer are pretty rare, most ships have a variety of weapons and that shouldn't be taken away to fit sins rock-paper-scissor mentality, Requiem does that already.

 

The carrack and the lancer both have have anti starfighter capabilities, I think you should expand ship weaponry to with with actual sw canon that try to specialize to force sins logic. People will pick ships based on what mix of weapons they want. Since fleet sizes are so big, I prefer large ships with different weapons that survive rather than smaller dedicated ships. Although even some of these small ships seem very capable...

 

Lancer: (ironically, reading the history behind the lancer, it was regulated to rear guard and backwater planets which is sort of how I use it atm)

AG-2G quad laser cannons (20)

Carrack: This thing seems really durable too

Heavy turbolasers (10)

Tractor beam projectors (5)

Ion cannons (20)

Anti-starfighter version:

Heavy turbolasers (10)

Tractor beam projectors (5)

Laser cannons (20)

 

Regarding how point defense should be implemented, I agree that most if not all captial ships (by SW definition not sins) should have SOME sort of anti air capabilities. Though I feel that the stopping power should be based on ship capabilities/size. Point defense weaponry should stop somewhere between 1-6 squadrons with 6 being reserved for the Star Dreadnought Class.

[Lavo]

You can't shoot down missiles without going into abilities, which is a pain and is an area I'm really unfamiliar with. It might not even be a "real" PD shield like say, the Zann Consortium's corvette in EaW.

 

Yeah, I've noticed that issue with anti-starfighter frigates, even if with a solid flak burst they get slaughtered. While this is partially mitigated with the frigate health boost I put in, once again pending SVN server restart, the supply cost decrease will do wonders in the end. I might reduce costs further, but as it is, you can get around 25 Lancers for the upkeep of a single ISD I.

 

I agree that ship weaponry should be expanded, to an extent that's why I created this thread. The Carrack is a nice durable ship, now that it has 1400 shielding instead of 1000.

 

As for point defense, as I mentioned earlier, it will primarily be a replacement for current absurdities that were made necessary by the three weapon limit. Also, earlier you mentioned possibly tractor beams their own weapon, after thinking about it I think that it might in fact be possible to do this, however it would require it's own weapon slot, which would limit it to ships that will only need 3-4 weapon slots, such as the Carrack. I believe it could be achieved by making it a beam weapon that causes no damage, but the ship has a passive OnWeaponFired ability that, when the beam hits it's target, causes a speed/acceleration decrease.

[SpardaSon21]

I don't think tractor beams should be a weapon. They're better off as a special ability. On the other hand, I definitely support adding point-defense lasers and ion cannons to ships that need them. Something you may not know is that weapons can also be coded to only harm shields using the AFFECTS_ONLY_SHIELDS tag instead of AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL, so that would be a great addition to any added ion cannon weapons in exchange for increased damage.

[Lavo]

I don't think tractor beams should be a weapon. They're better off as a special ability. On the other hand, I definitely support adding point-defense lasers and ion cannons to ships that need them.

Thing is, abilities are semi-limited in what they could do. The tractor beam idea I got would basically be the frigate tractor beam already in place, except it would act like an actual tractor beam, instead of a buff that applies even when a ship is outside of tractor range of the casting vessel. This of course wouldn't be implemented in all vessels, only those who currently have a tractor beam ability and have an "open" weapon slot.

 

Something you may not know is that weapons can also be coded to only harm shields using the AFFECTS_ONLY_SHIELDS tag instead of AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL, so that would be a great addition to any added ion cannon weapons in exchange for increased damage.

Mmh, this is what spurned the idea to put in real ion cannons in the first place over a year ago, though their implementation has been delayed to due the numerous other things that SoGE needed at the time, plus the then 3 weapon slot limitation.

[Lavo]

Another thing that's come to mind recently... Originally, the Torpedo Sphere was put in because the Imperials lacked a mid-tier capital ship between the Tector and Executor. This role has since been taken up by the Allegiance, which is a far more suitable fit, as the Torpedo Sphere was not a combat vessel; it was a dedicated siege platform. In terms of SoGE, it has more in common with the Acclamator II than any other ship, in terms of it's role. It also, canonly speaking, wasn't that well armed for it's size. As such, I am considering turning it into a cruiser instead of leaving it as a capital ship.

[soul0reaper]

Also, earlier you mentioned possibly tractor beams their own weapon, after thinking about it I think that it might in fact be possible to do this, however it would require it's own weapon slot, which would limit it to ships that will only need 3-4 weapon slots, such as the Carrack. I believe it could be achieved by making it a beam weapon that causes no damage, but the ship has a passive OnWeaponFired ability that, when the beam hits it's target, causes a speed/acceleration decrease.

On the ISDs there are redundancies to the weapons. You can probably merge 2 types of turbolasers into 1 weapon slot though it would be nice to see the full complement. I'm not really concerned which way tractors go, most of the time its the limited range that gets to me :/ but thats also canon.

 

Something you may not know is that weapons can also be coded to only harm shields using the AFFECTS_ONLY_SHIELDS tag instead of AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL, so that would be a great addition to any added ion cannon weapons in exchange for increased damage.

Mmh, this is what spurned the idea to put in real ion cannons in the first place over a year ago, though their implementation has been delayed to due the numerous other things that SoGE needed at the time, plus the then 3 weapon slot limitation.

Ion cannons also affect the ship, look at what happened at hoth. it has disabling properties xD

 

Another thing that's come to mind recently... Originally, the Torpedo Sphere was put in because the Imperials lacked a mid-tier capital ship between the Tector and Executor. This role has since been taken up by the Allegiance, which is a far more suitable fit, as the Torpedo Sphere was not a combat vessel; it was a dedicated siege platform. In terms of SoGE, it has more in common with the Acclamator II than any other ship, in terms of it's role. It also, canonly speaking, wasn't that well armed for it's size. As such, I am considering turning it into a cruiser instead of leaving it as a capital ship.

Doesn't sound like a problem to me, what would it be replacing?

[Lavo]

Ion cannons also affect the ship, look at what happened at hoth. it has disabling properties xD

I'm aware of this. Ion cannons will have a chance of disabling the various components of the ship it is firing upon (engines, weapons, etc), but it will be a very, very small chance. Mainly as you will have dozens of cruisers/frigates firing upon a single target, and each one has a shot at disabling things. The ability will also have no stacking limit, so mass enough ships against a single target and it's screwed.

 

Doesn't sound like a problem to me, what would it be replacing?

The Torpedo Sphere capital ship. i.e. Get rid of the capital ship, turn it into a cruiser.

[soul0reaper]

Ion cannons also affect the ship, look at what happened at hoth. it has disabling properties xD

I'm aware of this. Ion cannons will have a chance of disabling the various components of the ship it is firing upon (engines, weapons, etc), but it will be a very, very small chance. Mainly as you will have dozens of cruisers/frigates firing upon a single target, and each one has a shot at disabling things. The ability will also have no stacking limit, so mass enough ships against a single target and it's screwed.

 

Doesn't sound like a problem to me, what would it be replacing?

The Torpedo Sphere capital ship. i.e. Get rid of the capital ship, turn it into a cruiser.

I meant which cruiser, I thought all the cruiser slots for the empire were used?

 

I was thinking more of a reduction component functionality rather than a chance to disable. Different ion cannons had a chance of reducing functionality by x amount with y chance. It sounds a little silly if by random, one of the ion bolts fired just disabled a ship outright. Ion cannons also do structural damage to the ship via the intense heat they generate. In addition, not sure if having shields resist/stop ion cannon effects. My suggestion is to have it do greater damage to shields but with longer reload rates (maybe a research opportunity?)and reduced damage to hull.

.

[Lavo]

I meant which cruiser, I thought all the cruiser slots for the empire were used?

Nope. Don't forget, in Sins logic, frigates and cruisers are one of the same. The Empire currently has two vacant slots; one of which is reserved for the Lambda shuttle (envoy).

 

I was thinking more of a reduction component functionality rather than a chance to disable. Different ion cannons had a chance of reducing functionality by x amount with y chance. It sounds a little silly if by random, one of the ion bolts fired just disabled a ship outright. ... In addition, not sure if having shields resist/stop ion cannon effects.

Well, depending on how the ability is structured, it can do ALL of these things. You can have it set up where a lucky hit does both a full disabling and a percentage based reduction, or separate chances for both, and many other things. I see where you are going with this however, and it's a good idea, but I want to put in some full disabling effects as well, mainly so that it isn't a duplicate of the ion abilities currently in place... Though one could argue the reason ion abilities exist in the first place is due to a lack of real ion cannons.

 

Unfortunately, setting up a shield failure ability is virtually impossible. Due to how Sins is coded, ShieldFailure is only present as a finish condition for an ability. It is possible to do, and I've looked into it, but it is simply beyond my abilities to make it. In addition, unlike canon, shields are always up on every area of a ship in Sins, versus making it possible to create "holes" or "breeches" in a shield; such a lucky shot can arguably represent this, even if this is a bit of a drawing at straws argument.

 

Ion cannons also do structural damage to the ship via the intense heat they generate. ... My suggestion is to have it do greater damage to shields but with longer reload rates (maybe a research opportunity?)and reduced damage to hull.

Ion cannons will not cause hull damage. This is final. They will cause greater shield damage than turbolasers however.

[RazorUK84]

Hey guys,

 

I was playing as New Republic yesterday and built a Mon Calamari capital ship...I noticed that it has a beam damage, but is showing as zero. Could you explain please, was I missing a research maybe?

 

Thanks

[Lavo]

It's for the tractor beam ability it has, it's supposed to be 0. The ability unfortunately needs work still.

[RazorUK84]

ah, fair enough. Thanks